Where did they go

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Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Another sample of Nessie's "logic". He wrote:
If a prisoner is to sent to work at Majdanek and they are there working for the next few months or even years, then of course they are being fed, clothed and accommodated.
Uh-huh, but you have no documentation for those detainees being fed and clothed. No matter, Nessie stamps his feet and shrieks, "Documents, documents!"

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:32 am
Nessie wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:23 am
Why did the Nazis kept such detailed records of the Jews, for those records to end, for some, at only some camps?
They were probably released from protective custody. What camps are being referred to? There is an implication of knowledge, though there is no information in regards to the 192 konzentrationslager in Poland. It appears from a post made the other day (from the same poster) the number of konzentrationslager in Poland was very limited, about 6. This is not just a margin of error but tantamount to pure ignorance of the topic being discussed.
If the poster Nessie could elucidate us about juden in these 192 konzentrationslager in Poland it would be appreciated.
This thread is about the AR camps at Belzec, Sobibor, Chelmno and TII and the kremas at A-B, which deniers claim were not used to gas people. The "where did they go?" topic question is the natural response to that denier claim. If c2.5 million people were not gassed on those locations, where did they go to be fed, clothed and accommodated till liberation?

Making up claims like they were released from protective custody and that they laboured on farms is the same nonsense you spouted when you claimed you went to New Zealand to investigate the mosque mass shooting.

If you are now claiming they were transported to and accommodated at any of the 192 camps you have just referred to, then show your evidence. So far all there is from deniers to back up their claims are about only TII;

- Mattogno presented documents from Majdanek to show small transports from TII and Belzec.
- Eric Hunt presented the video testimony of witness who said they went to Majdanek, Budzyn and one suspect claim about going to Auschwitz.
- Turnagain presented evidence of 7 (he strangely thinks it is 5) records from the USHMM to show people who had been at TII and what other camps they had been at, but there is no chronology and at least one, Seder, is one of the witnesses Eric Hunt uses in his video, so there is potential double counting between all three sources of those who went to Majdanek.

A more thorough research on TSF finds that 2-3,000 went from TII to Majdanek (based primarily on how large the known witnesses said their transport was). Turnagain claims it is 12-15,000 but cannot show the source of that figure.

Unless you can evidence and prove that those you claim were not gassed left the AR camps and A-B, I do not believe your claim. I do not believe any claim that is not evidenced so it is proven.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:04 pm
Nessie has no records for the 12,000-15,000 that were known to be deported from T-II except the 412 records from Majdanek and the seven deportees mentioned by the USHMM.
In other words, there are records, but, bizarrely, you want to dismiss them, even though they are exactly what you need to evidence your belief :?
Nessie has no proof for his claim of 2,000 to 3,000 being deported.
That is not true. There are the documents you mentioned. There are witnesses who were on some of those transports. There is Majdanek that could accommodate that number of people.
Even for that minimal number, he has no documentation for their travel or maintenance.
But there is some documentation and there are some witnesses, sufficient to prove that 2-3,000 were transported back out of TII. They were "maintained" at Majdanek, which accommodated c150,000 prisoners during its operation.

You claim that no documentation is a problem for me. It is a far greater problem for you, since the lack of documents recording arrivals from TII at any camp other than Majdanek is opposite to what you claim.
Other than witness testimony Nessie has documentation for 419 people but demands documentation for hundreds of thousands although it's known that millions went unaccounted for during the war.

Wail away, Nessie, if that's what pleases you but your spurious demand is meaningless.
You are dodging that you claim c840,000 left TII, despite there only being evidence sufficient to prove a few transports of 2-3,000 most of whom were accommodated at Majdanek.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:26 pm
Another sample of Nessie's "logic". He wrote:
If a prisoner is to sent to work at Majdanek and they are there working for the next few months or even years, then of course they are being fed, clothed and accommodated.
Uh-huh, but you have no documentation for those detainees being fed and clothed. No matter, Nessie stamps his feet and shrieks, "Documents, documents!"
There is documentation in the Majdanek archives that evidences how many prisoners were accommodated, fed and clothed during its operation.

http://www.majdanek.eu/en/history/general_information/1

"The German concentration camp in Lublin, called Majdanek, was initiated by Heinrich Himmler’s decision. Visiting Lublin in July 1941, Himmler entrusted Lublin district SS and police commander, Odilo Globocnik, with building a camp “for 25-50,000 inmates who would be used to work in SS and police workshops and at construction sites”. The camp was going to be the source of a free workforce for the realization of the plans to build a German empire.
Initial plans concerning the size of the camp were modified a couple of times, with the area of the camp and the planned number of prisoners being enlarged each time. The so-called “general plan” to build Majdanek was authorized on 23rd March 1942 and was intended to establish a camp to hold 150,000 inmates and prisoners of war. Thereby Majdanek was to have become the largest camp in occupied Europe. However, economic difficulties and failures on the eastern front prevented full realization of these plans.
The camp at Majdanek was subordinate to the Concentration Camps Inspectorate (Inspektion der Konzentrationslager), and from March 1942 to the Economics and Administrative Department of the SS (SS-Wirtschafts- und Verwaltungshauptamt). The camp was administered by a commandant supported by a garrison of up to 1,200 people...
Among an estimated 150,000 prisoners who entered Majdanek, 80,000 people were killed according to the most recent research. Among them, the greatest number of those who died or were murdered were Jews (about 60,000), followed by Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians."

It is up to you to evidence that the other c840,000 went to other camps or explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?

You can edit that out of as many of your replies as you want, unless you can prove mass transports back out of the AR camps and A-B, of those you claim were not gassed, I do believe you.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
In other words, there are records, but, bizarrely, you want to dismiss them, even though they are exactly what you need to evidence your belief.
There are three sets of records for 419 deportees being sent to various camps. There is apparently NO records for the maintenance of any of those deportees. Nessie has produced NO documents detailing the feeding, clothing and shelter of those people. Nessie then demands that revisionists produce records, hard copy written documents, for itineraries, the feeding, clothing and shelter of ~850,000 people. The testimony of the witnesses is EVIDENCE that T-II wasn't an extermination facility. Not PROOF but very good evidence. Nessie cannot explain how he knows that the 12,000-15,000 estimated deportees who transited through T-II were the only deportees to do so.

Nessie demands documents from all of the camps detailing how the deportees were fed, clothed and sheltered. He has testimony that deportees left T-II and the records from the USHMM but that's insufficient. Nessie stamps his feet and shrieks, "Documents, documents"!

Nessie claims that the ~850,000 were killed at T-II. The first rule of evidence is, "Is it possible". If it wasn't possible then it didn't happen. What the alleged eyewitnesses claimed happened at T-II wasn't possible. Nessie makes up a string of bizarre "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" excuses for the witnesses and then claims that "it happened". What the witnesses claimed IS documented. For example, Rosenberg swore under oath that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed. Nessie is full of more shit than a Christmas goose.

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Re: Where did they go

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Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:49 pm
Nessie wrote:
In other words, there are records, but, bizarrely, you want to dismiss them, even though they are exactly what you need to evidence your belief.
There are three sets of records for 419 deportees being sent to various camps. There is apparently NO records for the maintenance of any of those deportees. Nessie has produced NO documents detailing the feeding, clothing and shelter of those people.
I have shown you where the documents are. Not all archive documents are online. In any case, the witnesses themselves, as shown in parts of Hunts video, describe arriving at Majdanek, being showered and sent to barracks.

If you can produce witness evidence of people from TII being accommodated at other camps, that is also acceptable evidence.
Nessie then demands that revisionists produce records, hard copy written documents, for itineraries, the feeding, clothing and shelter of ~850,000 people.
Yes. It is your claim, so prove it.

Sufficient evidence from the 419 records and dozen or so witnesses proves that there were limited transports from TII to Majdanek of around 2-3,000, which a camp that size could accommodate.

Now do the same for other camps run by the Nazis and keep going till you have accounted for the c840,000 you claim were not gassed.
The testimony of the witnesses is EVIDENCE that T-II wasn't an extermination facility. Not PROOF but very good evidence.
No, the witness evidence of what happened inside TII is evidence it was an extermination facility. EVERY SINGLE witness who worked there said it was an extermination facility. NONE say it was a transit camp.

Your interpretation of the witness evidence, using a series of logical fallacies, is not a method recognised by any academic. Just because witnesses said things about gassings you interpret as impossible, does not mean therefore the Nazis could not have and never did build gas chambers at TII.
Nessie cannot explain how he knows that the 12,000-15,000 estimated deportees who transited through T-II were the only deportees to do so.
That is not true. I have been repeatedly posting my point about the physical impossibility of your claim the Nazis managed to transport and accommodate so many people without leaving any evidence and you have been blanking it.

If 2-3,000 sent to Majdanek left 419 records and a dozen witnesses, then other transports to other camps would have also left records and witnesses.
Nessie demands documents from all of the camps detailing how the deportees were fed, clothed and sheltered. He has testimony that deportees left T-II and the records from the USHMM but that's insufficient. Nessie stamps his feet and shrieks, "Documents, documents"!
Not just documents, you need witnesses and the names of places where those people were sent to show that they were big enough to accommodate people from TII.
Nessie claims that the ~850,000 were killed at T-II. The first rule of evidence is, "Is it possible". If it wasn't possible then it didn't happen.
OK, explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?

Your "first rule of evidence" applies to your claim.
What the alleged eyewitnesses claimed happened at T-II wasn't possible. Nessie makes up a string of bizarre "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" excuses for the witnesses and then claims that "it happened". What the witnesses claimed IS documented. For example, Rosenberg swore under oath that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed. Nessie is full of more shit than a Christmas goose.
It is perfectly possible to build a brick, concrete and tiled gas chamber, hermetically seal the doors and all vents except one to deal with any pressure change and then pipe engine fumes into it and kill those inside. It is not a complicated build.

Your argument that how the witnesses described it would not work, therefore the Nazis never have built it, is a logical fallacy.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:49 pm
...The first rule of evidence is, "Is it possible". If it wasn't possible then it didn't happen.
Explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?

Then do the same from those sent to Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and the A-B kremas. That is c2.5 million people you claim were not gassed, who by mid 1944 the Nazis were accommodating somewhere.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
There is documentation in the Majdanek archives that evidences how many prisoners were accommodated, fed and clothed during its operation.
http://www.majdanek.eu/en/history/general_information/1

There is absolutely nothing, zip, zero, nada for documents detailing the amounts of food or clothing allocated to the camp in that link. Neither does it mention that the initial claim was for 1.3 million victims of that camp. Neither does it mention that the so-called gas chambers have been shot down. It's nothing but a holyhoax propaganda outlet that is so typical of Nessie's links. Nessie's favorite trick is to link to a whole site and say, "See, there's the proof" while providing no specifics whatsoever.

From the witness testimony we know that deportees were sent to other destinations from T-II via rail. However, documents for those movements no longer exist. Instead, Nessie quotes Zabecki who claims that NO trains left T-II with passengers. How does Nessie reconcile the statements from the deportees and Zabecki's statements? He doesn't. Just another example of Nessie's "double-think". Nessie don't need no steenkin' documents. Only revisionists must produce documents for every last little detail. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:31 pm
Nessie wrote:
There is documentation in the Majdanek archives that evidences how many prisoners were accommodated, fed and clothed during its operation.
http://www.majdanek.eu/en/history/general_information/1

There is absolutely nothing, zip, zero, nada for documents detailing the amounts of food or clothing allocated to the camp in that link. Neither does it mention that the initial claim was for 1.3 million victims of that camp. Neither does it mention that the so-called gas chambers have been shot down. It's nothing but a holyhoax propaganda outlet that is so typical of Nessie's links. Nessie's favorite trick is to link to a whole site and say, "See, there's the proof" while providing no specifics whatsoever.
That link tells you how many people were accommodated at Majdanek. Now, unless you are claiming they lived naked in the open air and worked with no food or water, then they were fed, given prison uniforms and accommodated in the barracks at the camp.

It is from the archives that the initial Soviet claim was revised down from 1.3 million victims to 80,000. The archives did not support the numbers the Soviets claimed.
From the witness testimony we know that deportees were sent to other destinations from T-II via rail. However, documents for those movements no longer exist.
The only other camp a witness said he was sent to from TII was Budzyn. The claim of a transport to A-B is disputed due to Malkinia. Indeed, there are no documents to support those claims. That is why they are only evidenced and not proven.

The presence of documents and witnesses proves the transports to Majdanek. No other camp has proof of transports from TII.
Instead, Nessie quotes Zabecki who claims that NO trains left T-II with passengers. How does Nessie reconcile the statements from the deportees and Zabecki's statements? He doesn't.
Not true, I answered you before by pointing out we do not have access to all of his records, so we do not know for sure if he recorded any of the worker transports or not, and in any case, he did not work 24/7, so he was not about to see every transport. In any case, after the revolt at the camp, he did note that transports including people left TII;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... becki.html

"The destruction within the camp was probably substantial. We heard that about 50% of the buildings were destroyed. But the action to annihilate the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit;
18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor)."

Just another example of Nessie's "double-think".
No, it is yet another example of how I tell you about what happened and link you to evidence and you "forget" and do not read the evidence (or maybe you just do not understand it) and then ask me again. :roll:
Nessie don't need no steenkin' documents. Only revisionists must produce documents for every last little detail. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
That is not true. I consider the Majdanek documents and witnesses as sufficient to prove the 2-3,000 were sent from TII. I do not need a record and witness for every single deportee. Just a sufficient sample to prove there were deportees.

The ONLY camp where that is the case is Majdanek, but you demand I believe thousands of Jews were regularly sent from TII to camps all over Poland, without those transports being evidenced in any way. That is why you have again dodged;

Explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence, except for Majdanek. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:49 pm
...The first rule of evidence is, "Is it possible". If it wasn't possible then it didn't happen.
Stop dodging, your own first rule of evidence :lol:

Explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence, except for Majdanek. How did the Nazis manage to do that?

Then do the same from those sent to Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and the A-B kremas. That is c2.5 million people you claim were not gassed, who by mid 1944 the Nazis were accommodating somewhere.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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