Where did they go

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Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
It is Huntinger who claims TIII is in Czernowy Bor, not US intelligence, who listed three camps at Treblinka, a labour camp, a death camp and a trasit camp.
U.S. intelligence claimed that there were three Treblinka camps. The penal camp (T-1), the concentration camp (T-II) and T-III, the extermination camp located about 30 miles from T-II.
If someone stayed for 8 days, where did they stay?
LOL! Nessie pretends that his map is the one and only true map of T-II as it existed in 1942-43. Gee, that's just soooooo convincing, Nessie. Anyone who claimed to have spent more than a few hours in T-II is a liar...according to Nessie.
You have only got one witness who you can conclusively evidence was in TII.
I don't have to prove or "evidence" that ANY of the deportees were in T-II. The deportees SAID they were in T-II so unless you can conclusively prove them to be lying or mistaken that's where they were.
You hate being asked to prove your claims. Why is that?
First, they aren't my claims. They are claims made by the deportees. Second, what makes you think that I'm required to answer all of your "what ifs", "coulda woulda" and whatever other mindless speculations you can imagine?
My objections to Kulawy's claim he was at TII are;

- no accommodation for anyone other than camp workers, to keep trainloads of people for 8 days
- no reference to the train station in the camp
- no evidence of transports arriving at A-B from TII

You ignore that and a few post later pretend that I have not explained to you the problems with his claim.
First of all, your objections to Kulawy's claims are unproven. Your claim that there's only one map of T-II is bullshit. Second, he didn't say that trainloads of people were kept at T-II. He said that he left with a trainload of men, women and children. How many trains arrived and departed during those eight days is unknown.

One person referenced the train station at T-II. Are you actually claiming that the other 19 witnesses lied about being in T-II because they didn't mention the train station?

There's only 412 records of people from T-II arriving at Majdanek and none for Budzyn or the other camps. What's your point?
US Intelligence did locate the third camp in Czerwony Bor, Huntinger did.
U.S. intelligence said that there were three (3) Treblinka camps. T-I, the penal camp, T-II, the concentration camp, and T-III the execution facility located about 30 miles from T-II.
TI or Malkinia are the only two camps with barracks that could accommodate people being transited. It is more likely those being transited were kept at Malkinia.
Your claim that T-II had no barracks for deportees is idle speculation.
Your unevidenced arguments from logical fallacies is not proof of no gassings at TII.
The impossible fantasies told by the alleged eyewitnesses are proof that nobody was steamed/gassed/vacuumed at T-II. Get over it.
As I said, I am happy to accept that only 412 people went from TII to Majdanek. That leaves you with a problem, what happened to the rest?
According to you they must have been steamed/gassed/vacuumed at T-II. Buried in an unknown number of giant mass graves, exhumed whole with some kind of mystery machine and cremated without any fuel on the magic Jew barbeque. Unless thousands of tons of firewood was secretly shipped into T-II as you sometimes claim. Just curious but do you actually expect people to believe such mindless claptrap?
I cannot find the records you claim are there. It is you who I do not believe.
(Shrug)
How do you know that? You have records for 412 to Majdanek and you claim records for another 5 who went elsewhere. Using your standard, you have only evidence for 417. If you collate the number of people that the witnesses who went to Majdanek said they went with, that then means we can account for 2-3,000.

There is neither documentary nor witness evidence for the rest. But you demand we believe they also went.
Kulawy testified to leaving T-II in a trainload of men, women and children. Helen Schwartz testified that she left with a trainload of all women. Zabecki testified that a trainload was as many as 8,000-10,000 people. Abe Kon testified before Lukaszkiewicz that he arrived at T-II in a train of 60 cars. There are claims of between 100 to 200 men, women and children were forced into a single box car. Between the two trainloads plus the number of people mentioned by the other deportees plus the unknown number that left with the deportees mentioned in the USHMM records, 12,000-15,000 is a conservative estimate for those known to have transited through T-II.
It is not a bogus demand, it is perfectly reasonable to ask you to evidence your claims. Out of 840,000 there is documentary evidence that 412 were transported to Majdanek and witness evidence that 2-3000 were on those transports. Something that you ignore is that Majdanek could accommodate 150,000, so it could easily take the 2-3000 from TII.
According to Huntinger there were 708 camps located in the General Government. They could have easily accommodated the ~840,000 from T-II. Since you have no proof for where even the 12,000-15,000 went, save the 412 records from Majdanek, why do you demand an itinerary and records of maintenance for the ~840,000? The camps in the GG had enough capacity for the ~840,000 and more.

Anyone reading this will see just how bogus your demand for an exact accounting of the ~840,000 is.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:45 pm
Nessie wrote:
It is Huntinger who claims TIII is in Czernowy Bor, not US intelligence, who listed three camps at Treblinka, a labour camp, a death camp and a trasit camp.
U.S. intelligence claimed that there were three Treblinka camps. The penal camp (T-1), the concentration camp (T-II) and T-III, the extermination camp located about 30 miles from T-II.
The US intelligence report lists three camps. It is not naming those camps TI, TII and TIII as you think. It does not locate an extermination camp 30 miles from TII. You have got confused by Huntinger's daft claims.
If someone stayed for 8 days, where did they stay?
LOL! Nessie pretends that his map is the one and only true map of T-II as it existed in 1942-43. Gee, that's just soooooo convincing, Nessie. Anyone who claimed to have spent more than a few hours in T-II is a liar...according to Nessie.
OK, show me your evidence that TII had barracks accommodation for transports where people not working at the camp could live.
You have only got one witness who you can conclusively evidence was in TII.
I don't have to prove or "evidence" that ANY of the deportees were in T-II. The deportees SAID they were in T-II so unless you can conclusively prove them to be lying or mistaken that's where they were.
No witness SAID he or she was in Treblinka II. Stop lying.
You hate being asked to prove your claims. Why is that?
First, they aren't my claims. They are claims made by the deportees. Second, what makes you think that I'm required to answer all of your "what ifs", "coulda woulda" and whatever other mindless speculations you can imagine?
You have altered what the witnesses actually said. You claim they said Treblinka II. They did not. It is your claim they went to Treblinka II. The witnesses said they went to "Treblinka" and they did not add on a number.
My objections to Kulawy's claim he was at TII are;

- no accommodation for anyone other than camp workers, to keep trainloads of people for 8 days
- no reference to the train station in the camp
- no evidence of transports arriving at A-B from TII

You ignore that and a few post later pretend that I have not explained to you the problems with his claim.
First of all, your objections to Kulawy's claims are unproven. Your claim that there's only one map of T-II is bullshit. Second, he didn't say that trainloads of people were kept at T-II. He said that he left with a trainload of men, women and children. How many trains arrived and departed during those eight days is unknown.
He said he was accommodated for 8 days and then left on train including children. You claim that was TII, but you cannot evidence that is the case.
One person referenced the train station at T-II. Are you actually claiming that the other 19 witnesses lied about being in T-II because they didn't mention the train station?
No, I am saying there was confusion amongst witnesses as to which camp they actually went to.
There's only 412 records of people from T-II arriving at Majdanek and none for Budzyn or the other camps. What's your point?
That documents and witnesses only evidence limited transports to Majdanek and Budzyn and you then demand we believe the rest left for other camps without leaving any evidence at all.

It is up to you to evidence that claim and explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
US Intelligence did not locate the third camp in Czerwony Bor, Huntinger did.
U.S. intelligence said that there were three (3) Treblinka camps. T-I, the penal camp, T-II, the concentration camp, and T-III the execution facility located about 30 miles from T-II.
Show me in the US intelligence report where they located the death camp 30 miles from TII;

Image
TI or Malkinia are the only two camps with barracks that could accommodate people being transited. It is more likely those being transited were kept at Malkinia.
Your claim that T-II had no barracks for deportees is idle speculation.
No plan of the camp includes barracks for deportees to live in the camp. Where is your evidence there were such barracks?
Your unevidenced arguments from logical fallacies is not proof of no gassings at TII.
The impossible fantasies told by the alleged eyewitnesses are proof that nobody was steamed/gassed/vacuumed at T-II. Get over it.
You deliberately interpret the evidence in a way to make it appear impossible. That does not make it impossible.
As I said, I am happy to accept that only 412 people went from TII to Majdanek. That leaves you with a problem, what happened to the rest?
According to you they must have been steamed/gassed/vacuumed at T-II. Buried in an unknown number of giant mass graves, exhumed whole with some kind of mystery machine and cremated without any fuel on the magic Jew barbeque. Unless thousands of tons of firewood was secretly shipped into T-II as you sometimes claim. Just curious but do you actually expect people to believe such mindless claptrap?
I cannot find the records you claim are there. It is you who I do not believe.
(Shrug)
How do you know that? You have records for 412 to Majdanek and you claim records for another 5 who went elsewhere. Using your standard, you have only evidence for 417. If you collate the number of people that the witnesses who went to Majdanek said they went with, that then means we can account for 2-3,000.

There is neither documentary nor witness evidence for the rest. But you demand we believe they also went.
Kulawy testified to leaving T-II in a trainload of men, women and children. Helen Schwartz testified that she left with a trainload of all women. Zabecki testified that a trainload was as many as 8,000-10,000 people. Abe Kon testified before Lukaszkiewicz that he arrived at T-II in a train of 60 cars. There are claims of between 100 to 200 men, women and children were forced into a single box car. Between the two trainloads plus the number of people mentioned by the other deportees plus the unknown number that left with the deportees mentioned in the USHMM records, 12,000-15,000 is a conservative estimate for those known to have transited through T-II.
Kulawy did not say he left TII, you are lying that he used that descriptive and named the camp TII.
Schwartz also did not say she left TII.
Zabecki records empty trains or trains carrying property, not people, leaving the camp.
Kon escaped during the uprising, he did not leave on a transport, nor did he say transports of people left the camp.

A more accurate tally of transports out is 2-3000, not the 12-15,000 Eric Hunt claimed and then retracted.
It is not a bogus demand, it is perfectly reasonable to ask you to evidence your claims. Out of 840,000 there is documentary evidence that 412 were transported to Majdanek and witness evidence that 2-3000 were on those transports. Something that you ignore is that Majdanek could accommodate 150,000, so it could easily take the 2-3000 from TII.
According to Huntinger there were 708 camps located in the General Government. They could have easily accommodated the ~840,000 from T-II.
Correct, but there is only evidence for Majdanek and Budzyn.
Since you have no proof for where even the 12,000-15,000 went, save the 412 records from Majdanek,
It was not as many as 12-15,000 and there is witness evidence as well as documentary evidence to prove those limited transports. An enquiring mind would ask, if those smaller transports left evidence, where is the evidence of the much larger transports?
... why do you demand an itinerary and records of maintenance for the ~840,000?
Because all claims must be evidenced. Why do you think you are exempt?
The camps in the GG had enough capacity for the ~840,000 and more.
Those camps kept records. None record mass arrivals from TII. You also need to accommodate those from the other AR camps, which by the end of 1943 was c2 million people. The GC camps could not accommodate an extra 2 million people.
Anyone reading this will see just how bogus your demand for an exact accounting of the ~840,000 is.
Anyone reading this will see that since the transports to Majdanek and Budzyn left documentary and/or witness evidence, then it stands to reason that the other far larger transports to other camps would also leave a few documents and witnesses to evidence them.

They will see that you are dodging evidencing your claim and they will know it is because you have no evidence. Yet you demand we believe that somehow, the Nazis accommodated c 2million extra Jews in camps by the end of 1943, till 1945, without leaving any evidence at all. They will ask, how did the Nazis manage to do that? They will ask, why would they do it?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
The US intelligence report lists three camps. It is not naming those camps TI, TII and TIII as you think. It does not locate an extermination camp 30 miles from TII. You have got confused by Huntinger's daft claims.
Huntinger posted a copy of the report along with the naming of Malkinia as being a separate camp. He also listed supporting documents that T-III was in fact located in Czerwony Bor. You left that out of your re-post.
OK, show me your evidence that TII had barracks accommodation for transports where people not working at the camp could live.
There are three credible witnesses who claim to have spent from one night to seven nights in Treblinka. You have a map showing gas chambers and giant burial pits which are obvious lies. You call the credible witnesses liars and claim your phony map is real. I suppose that works in holyhoax la-la land.
No witness SAID he or she was in Treblinka II. Stop lying.
The witnesses did NOT say that they were serving a sentence in the penal camp. They all lived so they weren't sent to T-III to be executed. The witnesses were in the concentration/transit camp, T-II.
He said he was accommodated for 8 days and then left on train including children. You claim that was TII, but you cannot evidence that is the case.
See above.
Kulawy did not say he left TII, you are lying that he used that descriptive and named the camp TII.
Schwartz also did not say she left TII.
See above.
He said he was accommodated for 8 days and then left on train including children. You claim that was TII, but you cannot evidence that is the case.
See above.
No, I am saying there was confusion amongst witnesses as to which camp they actually went to.
So, "WHAT IF" all but one of the witnesses was "confused" and actually went to Malkinia and not Treblinka? Yep, that's what "COULDA" happened. Well, except for the guy who claimed that he left with 356 other deportees which is confirmed by German records. At any rate, don't pay any attention to what those "confused" witnesses said or German records show.
That documents and witnesses only evidence limited transports to Majdanek and Budzyn and you then demand we believe the rest left for other camps without leaving any evidence at all.
Witnesses claim that they were sent to Budzyn, Majdanek and Auschwitz. There are documents for only 412 deportees leaving Treblinka for Majdanek. Documents from the USHMM show about a dozen other camps for five deportees from Treblinka and the unknown number of deportees who accompanied them. You demand documented itineraries and documented proof of the deportees maintenance for ~850,000 people while you have zip, zero, nada documented proof for the 12,000-15,000 deportees known to have transited through Treblinka save the 412 records found by Mattogno. I suppose that makes sense in holyhoax la-la land.
Zabecki records empty trains or trains carrying property, not people, leaving the camp.
Kon escaped during the uprising, he did not leave on a transport, nor did he say transports of people left the camp.
What the hell does that have to do with the number of deportees that constituted a trainload?
A more accurate tally of transports out is 2-3000, not the 12-15,000 Eric Hunt claimed and then retracted.
The 12,000-15,000 estimated deportees from Treblinka is my estimate, not Hunt's. Where the hell did Hunt claim there were 12,000-15,000 deportees which he later retracted?
Correct, but there is only evidence for Majdanek and Budzyn.
There are documents for only 412 deportees sent to Majdanek. There is a document from the USHMM showing five deportees being sent to various camps. Your weasel dodge of conflating witness testimony and formal documentation doesn't fly.
It was not as many as 12-15,000 and there is witness evidence as well as documentary evidence to prove those limited transports. An enquiring mind would ask, if those smaller transports left evidence, where is the evidence of the much larger transports?
There is documentary evidence of 412 deportees being sent to Majdanek and five deportees from the USHMM. That's documentary evidence for 417 deportees. You can turn and squirm as much as you like but that's the only documentary evidence for deportees leaving Treblinka. An enquiring mind would ask, "Why are you trying to bullshit the reader"?
Because all claims must be evidenced. Why do you think you are exempt?
Really? Why then are you exempt from producing documentary evidence for the 12,000-15,000 known to have left Treblinka?
Those camps kept records.
They may have done but such records no longer exist except for the 412 accounted for in Majdanek and the camps listed by the USHMM. If records for the estimated 12,000-15,000 who left Treblinka exist then produce them. You can't. You have zip, zero, nada for even those numbers of deportees yet you demand documentary evidence for ~1.3 million deportees from the AR camps.
The GC camps could not accommodate an extra 2 million people.
How do you know that? Give quotes and sources.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

This is the important part.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:50 pm
...
That documents and witnesses only evidence limited transports to Majdanek and Budzyn and you then demand we believe the rest left for other camps without leaving any evidence at all.
Witnesses claim that they were sent to Budzyn, Majdanek and Auschwitz. There are documents for only 412 deportees leaving Treblinka for Majdanek.
If 2-3,000 (or your claim of 12-15,000) people being transported to Majdanek from TII left documents recording 412 records at Majdanek and about a dozen witnesses who said they were on those transports, and there is a witness to a transport to Budzyn and "coulda" transport to Auchwitz, why is that it?

Why is there only evidence of those transports and nothing for the other c840,000?
Documents from the USHMM show about a dozen other camps for five deportees from Treblinka and the unknown number of deportees who accompanied them.

Not true, you have made that up.
You demand documented itineraries and documented proof of the deportees maintenance for ~850,000 people while you have zip, zero, nada documented proof for the 12,000-15,000 deportees known to have transited through Treblinka save the 412 records found by Mattogno. I suppose that makes sense in holyhoax la-la land.
....
What really makes no sense is that you say I have zip, zero evidence and then you quote some of the evidence I have. You are contradicting yourself. You said;
Why then are you exempt from producing documentary evidence for the 12,000-15,000 known to have left Treblinka?
I am not exempt, neither are you. So, where is the documentary evidence of transports of c840,000 from TII to other camps?

The 412 records and a dozen witness is sufficient to evidence that there were some transports from TII to Majdanek. You do not need to evidence everyone, a sample will do and that sample is enough to prove that 2-3,000 went to Majdanek (but not your claim of 12-15,000).

You then contradict yourself again when you said;
You have zip, zero, nada for even those numbers of deportees yet you demand documentary evidence for ~1.3 million deportees from the AR camps.
But I do have evidence of transports to Majdanek and Budzyn, from some of the people on those transports and from some documents that show arrivals at Majdanek. That evidence is only sufficient to prove 2-3,000 left TII.

It is up to you to evidence that the other c840,000 went to other camps or explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:50 pm
...
The GC camps could not accommodate an extra 2 million people.
How do you know that? Give quotes and sources.
A-B was the largest camp;

http://auschwitz.org/en/history/kl-ausc ... -the-camp/

"Consisting originally of a single camp, Auschwitz expanded constantly until, at the peak of its growth in the summer of 1944, it had become a complex of about 40 camps, holding 135,000 prisoners."

That means TII alone would need 6 camps the size of A-B to accommodate all the people you claim were transported through it, and that was in the autumn of 1943 when it had closed.

Other major camps in the GC were (Wikipedia figures);
Gross-Rosen, capacity 125,000
Stutthof, capacity 110,000
Janowska, capacity 100,000
Majdanek, capacity 50,000

That is a total of 520,000, so even if totally dedicated to taking prisoners from TII, that still leaves c300,000. So, where did all the people you say were not gassed, get accommodated by the Nazis? Bear in mind, those camps when liberated were found to be virtually empty and the largest camp population was Bergen-Belsen which was 60,000 in 1945 when liberated by the British.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
If 2-3,000 (or your claim of 12-15,000) people being transported to Majdanek from TII left documents recording 412 records at Majdanek and about a dozen witnesses who said they were on those transports, and there is a witness to a transport to Budzyn and "coulda" transport to Auchwitz, why is that it?

Why is there only evidence of those transports and nothing for the other c840,000?
Just curious but why can't you comprehend the difference between witness testimony and written records? Do you have some sort of undiagnosed mental disorder? Or, are you just trying to weasel dodge the fact that there's only documentation for 412 deportees arriving at Majdanek? There is witness testimony for deportees being sent to Budzyn but NO documentation of that. What can't you understand about that?
Not true, you have made that up.
(Shrug)
I said:
You demand documented itineraries and documented proof of the deportees maintenance for ~850,000 people while you have zip, zero, nada documented proof for the 12,000-15,000 deportees known to have transited through Treblinka save the 412 records found by Mattogno. I suppose that makes sense in holyhoax la-la land.
Nessie wrote:
What really makes no sense is that you say I have zip, zero evidence and then you quote some of the evidence I have. You are contradicting yourself.
I wrote:
Why then are you exempt from producing documentary evidence for the 12,000-15,000 known to have left Treblinka?

Nessie wrote:
I am not exempt, neither are you. So, where is the documentary evidence of transports of c840,000 from TII to other camps?
(sigh)You have documentary evidence for 412 deportees arriving at Majdanek and the USHMM record of five deportees leaving Treblinka. That's out of a total of an estimated 12,000-15,000 deportees. What don't you understand about that? There's actual documentation for only 417 deportees leaving Treblinka. There's testimony from 20 witnesses and the USHMM records for the estimated 12,000-15,000 deportees leaving Treblinka. There's testimony and documentation. They aren't the same. They are different. Documents can't be cross-examined. The validity of a document can be examined but documents don't give testimony. Witnesses give testimony. Testimony and documentation. Got it?

You can't document even the testimony of just 20 witnesses. There's only documentation for 412 deportees arriving at Majdanek and the USHMM record of five deportees leaving Treblinka. Even if there were only 2,000-3,000 deportees who left Treblinka, you have documentation for only 417 individuals. Where is your documentation for the other 2,583? You don't have any but you demand that I produce documentation for ~850,000 deportees from Treblinka. IOW, you don't have to produce any documentation for your claims but demand that revisionists produce documents for the entire ~850,000 deportees who transited through T-II.
But I do have evidence of transports to Majdanek and Budzyn, from some of the people on those transports and from some documents that show arrivals at Majdanek. That evidence is only sufficient to prove 2-3,000 left TII.
No, you don't have "evidence". You have testimony from witnesses that deportees were sent to Budzyn, Majdanek and Auschwitz. That's T-E-S-T-I-M-O-N-Y. You have D-O-C-U-M-E-N-T-A-T-I-O-N for a total of 417 individuals. You are simply trying to conflate the two and call it "evidence".

BTW, what happened to your claim that Hunt estimated that 12,000-15,000 left Treblinka but later retracted that claim? Don't wanna' talk about it? Gee, why is that?

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:52 pm
Other major camps in the GC were (Wikipedia figures);
Gross-Rosen, capacity 125,000
Stutthof, capacity 110,000
Janowska, capacity 100,000
Majdanek, capacity 50,000
The minor camps were? Who said Js just stayed within the GC? Of course there were transports into RKU.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:56 pm
Nessie wrote:
If 2-3,000 (or your claim of 12-15,000) people being transported to Majdanek from TII left documents recording 412 records at Majdanek and about a dozen witnesses who said they were on those transports, and there is a witness to a transport to Budzyn and "coulda" transport to Auchwitz, why is that it?

Why is there only evidence of those transports and nothing for the other c840,000?
Just curious but why can't you comprehend the difference between witness testimony and written records? Do you have some sort of undiagnosed mental disorder? Or, are you just trying to weasel dodge the fact that there's only documentation for 412 deportees arriving at Majdanek? There is witness testimony for deportees being sent to Budzyn but NO documentation of that. What can't you understand about that?
Yes there is a difference. But, both witnesses and documents are evidence and both the witness and documents evidence that very few arrived from TII at any other camp. Indeed, there is only definitive, corroborating evidence to prove transports to Majdanek.

There is one witness who states he went to Budzyn, so that is not corroborated. There is one witness who said he went to A-B, but there is no corroboration for that either.

There is no witness or documentary evidence of any arrival at any other place from TII. But you demand we believe, without evidence.
Not true, you have made that up.
(Shrug)
I take it you have looked for the USHMM records and realised you were wrong, so you are dropping that claim. So, as above, there is only corroborating witness and documentary evidence of transports to Majdanek.
I said:
You demand documented itineraries and documented proof of the deportees maintenance for ~850,000 people while you have zip, zero, nada documented proof for the 12,000-15,000 deportees known to have transited through Treblinka save the 412 records found by Mattogno. I suppose that makes sense in holyhoax la-la land.
Nessie wrote:
What really makes no sense is that you say I have zip, zero evidence and then you quote some of the evidence I have. You are contradicting yourself.
I wrote:
Why then are you exempt from producing documentary evidence for the 12,000-15,000 known to have left Treblinka?

Nessie wrote:
I am not exempt, neither are you. So, where is the documentary evidence of transports of c840,000 from TII to other camps?
(sigh)You have documentary evidence for 412 deportees arriving at Majdanek and the USHMM record of five deportees leaving Treblinka. That's out of a total of an estimated 12,000-15,000 deportees. What don't you understand about that? There's actual documentation for only 417 deportees leaving Treblinka. There's testimony from 20 witnesses and the USHMM records for the estimated 12,000-15,000 deportees leaving Treblinka. There's testimony and documentation. They aren't the same. They are different. Documents can't be cross-examined. The validity of a document can be examined but documents don't give testimony. Witnesses give testimony. Testimony and documentation. Got it?

You can't document even the testimony of just 20 witnesses. There's only documentation for 412 deportees arriving at Majdanek and the USHMM record of five deportees leaving Treblinka. Even if there were only 2,000-3,000 deportees who left Treblinka, you have documentation for only 417 individuals. Where is your documentation for the other 2,583? You don't have any but you demand that I produce documentation for ~850,000 deportees from Treblinka. IOW, you don't have to produce any documentation for your claims but demand that revisionists produce documents for the entire ~850,000 deportees who transited through T-II.
But I do have evidence of transports to Majdanek and Budzyn, from some of the people on those transports and from some documents that show arrivals at Majdanek. That evidence is only sufficient to prove 2-3,000 left TII.
No, you don't have "evidence". You have testimony from witnesses that deportees were sent to Budzyn, Majdanek and Auschwitz. That's T-E-S-T-I-M-O-N-Y. You have D-O-C-U-M-E-N-T-A-T-I-O-N for a total of 417 individuals. You are simply trying to conflate the two and call it "evidence". [/quote]

Witness statements are evidence. If you want to not use any witnesses at all, then all you have is evidence that 412 people arrived at Majdanek from TII. You claim that there is documents for another 5, but you "shrug" when asked to produce it and I cannot find it. Even if those documents do say what you claim, that is still only 417.

That means various documents record multiple mass arrivals at TII, to a total of c850,000 and 412 left.

It is up to you to evidence that the other c840,000 went to other camps or explain how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
BTW, what happened to your claim that Hunt estimated that 12,000-15,000 left Treblinka but later retracted that claim? Don't wanna' talk about it? Gee, why is that?
You constantly dodge answering the important questions and you want to keep the thread in a loop repeating your daft, unevidenced claim, without explaining why I should believe what you cannot evidence and how it was possible for the Nazis to accommodate so many people without leaving any evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Witness statements are evidence.
Not when those witnesses are NKVD induced people with minimal freedoms.
why I should believe what you cannot evidence and how it was possible for the Nazis to accommodate so many people without leaving any evidence.
The evidence was subjugated to Soviet protocols after annexation. As mentioned there were hundreds of small camps and work stations which were a part of Operation Reinhardt; the economic recovery of an impoverished region. Work brings freedom. Aktion Reinhardt was the implementation of the Reinhardt initiative to stimulate economic recovery in Poland.

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Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie is just going to reiterate his spurious lies about testimony and documentation. He has documentary evidence for 417 deportees leaving T-II but demands that revisionists document where the ~850,000 allegedly sent to T-II went. Excepting the empty trains returning to Warsaw not even the outbound trains carrying the 12,000-15,000 deportees to Budzyn, Majdanek, Auschwitz and other destinations are documented. Zabecki is Nessie's source when his testimony isn't inconvenient such as when he claims that a trainload of deportees numbered 8,000-10,000 individuals. Witness testimony for the two trainloads of deportees leaving T-II is inconvenient so they are relegated to people who didn't know where they were. Must have been Malkinia or the penal camp at T-I. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Nessie claims that Hunt's estimate of 12,000-15,000 deportees leaving T-II was wrong and was later retracted by Hunt. That was, of course, my estimate for the number of deportees who left T-II and just another example of Nessie's lies. He attempts a weak suck weasel dodge for that claim but fails miserably. No wonder that he continually accuses his opponents of lying. He's an expert at it so expects others to be just as dishonest as him.

The fact remains that he has documentary evidence for only 417 deportees leaving T-II but demands documentary evidence for ~850,000 leaving T-II. The fact that the ~850,000 weren't steamed/gassed/vacuumed in a hermetically sealed building, buried...etc. is evidence that the deportees were sent elsewhere. That's inconvenient evidence so Nessie ignores it. Nessie claims that evidence is relevant only when it's convenient for his agenda. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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