Where did they go

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:38 am
.....

If there is some knowledge of the area of Russian East please tell us. We are not stuck in the mud of the Ostland-Ukraine western border where the Customs facility centres were.
Why are you asking for evidence of millions of Jews living in the Russian east in 1943? Should you not already have that evidence?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

There weren't any lethal electric jerk-off machines or hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers nor any magic Jew barbeque. T-II wasn't an extermination facility so where the Jews went is irrelevant. They left. Went bye-bye on a choo-choo or by shanks mare. Your whine of, "Where did they gooooo?" is just mindless bullshit.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:48 am
There weren't any lethal electric jerk-off machines or hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers nor any magic Jew barbeque. T-II wasn't an extermination facility so where the Jews went is irrelevant.
Where they went is very relevant. Unless you can show they lived on after arriving at the AR camps, then logically and evidentially, the claims they were gassed, buried and cremated stands. It is moronic of you to believe what is not evidenced to have happened over what is evidenced to have happened.

You think your arguments that no one was gassed etc at the camps are really clever and convincing, but they are not. They are based on logical fallacies, primarily the argument from incredulity. Just because someone said something incredulous about gassings etc and you cannot believe it happened, does not therefore mean it did not happen. That there are issues with the evidence is largely down to the Nazis trying as best they could to cover up their crime. If they had just buried any dead and left them buried, and then left the camp without demolishing the buildings, there would be no doubt whatsoever as to what happened there. You are too blind to see that there was a cover up and your inability to understand your use of fallacies a sign of your intelligence level and bias.
They left. Went bye-bye on a choo-choo or by shanks mare. Your whine of, "Where did they gooooo?" is just mindless bullshit.
No, my curiosity about what happened after is a sign of my honesty and desire to find the truth. Your desire to stop any investigation before evidencing and proving what did happen is a sign of your desire to falsely rewrite history.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

There weren't any lethal jerk-off machines, gas/vacuum chambers or magic Jew barbeque. Finito. End of story.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:29 pm
There weren't any lethal jerk-off machines, gas/vacuum chambers or magic Jew barbeque. Finito. End of story.
You are partially correct. There is only hearsay to part and corroboration for the other part, which is how we know what did not happen.

There is no evidence at all for what you believe in.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:19 am
Why are you asking for evidence of millions of Jews living in the Russian east in 1943? Should you not already have that evidence?
It is entirely this region which is the real area of interest, which is why this poster and others continually ask "where did they go"; this thread is designed to discuss this but so far the poster Nessie is attempting to subvert the discussion and put it back to the General Government area, specifically the departure points. The evidence is scanty due to the fog of war and also Russian interdiction.

Many atrocities attributed to Einsatz were in fact the Baltic polizei units and the Russians themselves dressed as SS.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Huntinger
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Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:57 pm
I am happy to end discussion about the unevidenced transports deniers claim took place from the AR camps to the Ostland and RKU in 1942-3 and move to where millions of Jews were supposedly being accommodated in the area at that time.
Evidence was given that some walked. It is only 122.7 km from the Bug river to Bialystok so the likely scenario is trucking; the cheapest is walking.
This area was in a fog of war where evidence was obliterated as quickly as it was produced. It has been mentioned several times that there were 60 customs facilities from the General Government to surrounding areas. Only a few records have remained of transportation to the facilities with none for the arbeitslager at Treblinka; one cannot make a vast judgement on the basis of scanty records relying solely on eye witness testimony, especially when those people had clear links with resistance organizations.

The Station Master records show conclusively that people departed Bialystok to Lublin via the Treblinka customs facility; some stayed for over a week which means there must have been barracks there; or stayed on the train. 11 thousand
people passed through this facility in August 43 and stayed while exterminations were going on apparently. None of those people reported anything amiss, nor did they report anything at all, that has come to light so far.

These people were most likely people sent to Bialystok earlier through the same facility and then sent back.

It is likely the deportations back into the General Government occurred earlier as well. Wiki reports:
On February 5–12, 1943, the first group of approximately 10,000 Białystok Jews were rounded up by the mobile battalions for the mass 'evacuation' of the ghetto. They were sent aboard Holocaust trains to their deaths at the Treblinka extermination camp.

This is similar to what Arad writes when after the Bialystok uprising he said:
The transports, which included seventy-six freight cars, arrived in Treblinka on August 18 and 19, 1943 The other three transports passed through Treblinka, but continued on. One went to Majdanek; one to Auschwitz; and one with children to Theresienstadt.
This is totally at variance with the factual report given by Zabecki the Treblinka Station master.
In the night of August 16, 1943, several hundred Polish Jews began an armed insurrection against the troops carrying out the liquidation of the Ghetto. Two days later Franciszek Zabecki the Treblinka Station Master reports:
  1. “On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews ‘PJ 201’ (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
  2. On 19 August, the transport ‘PJ 203’ (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
  3. On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, ‘PJ 204’ (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
  4. On 24 August, transport ‘PJ 209’ (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
  5. On 8 September, transport ‘PJ 211’ (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and
  6. On 17 September, transport ‘PJ 1025’ (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski[68] was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibór).”
What other evidence is there of people arriving or working in the area, perhaps dying even. Thomas Kues provides some answers which can be summarized here. Evidence of gassed jews in Eastern Territories.
  • Arad: “In the course of the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto, 3,000-4,000 of its residents were moved in the summer of 1942 to the Forest Camp (Waldlager) in the woods near the city of Bobruysk.(Belarussia)
  • Gerlach: “The general context suggests that Himmler’s journey to Mogilev and Smolensk had something to do with plans for deportations of Jews.
  • JTA Daily News Bulletin reports on deportations to the Occupied Eastern Territories
  • 25 September 1941 (p. 1):
    “Nazis plan to transfer Polish Jews to occupied Soviet territory
  • 20 October 1941 (p. 1):
    “Thousands of Jews Expelled from Germany to Pinsk Swamps in Poland
  • “Expelled Jews Will Be Used to Drain Marshes, Nazi Officials Announce
  • 10 February 1942 (p. 3):
    “Nazis proceeding with plan for ‘Jewish reservation,’(Eastern Europe) Berlin reports
  • 26 March 1942 (p. 1):
    “Lublin and Cracow Jews will spend passover digging trenches on the Nazi-Soviet front
  • 29 May 1942 (p. 3):
    “Germans Will Rule over Deported Slovakian Jews in Concentration Camps in Eastern Europe
  • 15 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “330,000 German Jews deported to Russia; deportations from Vienna resumed
  • 20 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “Jews of Europe will be deported to ‘colonial reservations,’ Nazi chief says
  • 26 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “Nazis begin large-scale deportations of Dutch Jews to Poland and occupied Russia
  • 28 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “Women, children, aged massacred in Warsaw ghetto as Nazis send Jews to Russian front
  • 4 September 1942 (p. 2):
    “Nazis in Holland plan to deport young Jews to Russia, others to Germany
  • 15 September 1942 (p. 1):
    “All Jews between 18 and 65 will be deported from Poland
  • 20 September 1942 (p. 1):
    “Unprecedented pogroms raging in Poland; large scale deportations of Jews reported
  • ONE THIRD OF DEPORTED JEWS DIE, NAZI OFFICIAL REPORTS
  • Mass deportations to the German-conquered regions of Eastern Europe have resulted in terrible ‘wastage of human life’ amounting in many instances to 30 per cent of the deportees, according to information received from underground sources in Germany.
  • 25 September 1942 (p. 3):
    “Nazis drive Jews and Poles hundreds of miles on foot to devastated Russian areas
  • 6 October 1942 (p. 1):
    “Trains with Jewish deportees leave Belgium for Nazi-held Ukraine
  • 7 October 1942 (p. 3):
    “Only 100,000 Jews left by the Nazis in Warsaw ghetto; mass-deportations continue
  • 16 October 1942 (p. 1):
    “Train carrying 20,000 Jews deported from France arrives in Bessarabia; many dead
  • 22 October 1942 (p. 2):
    “1,850 Jews from Poland and Western Europe executed by Nazis in Smolensk area
  • 30 October 1942 (p. 1):
    “Nazis deport Jewish women from Belgium; many sent to coal mines in Silesia
  • 1 November 1942 (p. 1):
    “Trains with Jewish deportees from France, Belgium, Holland continue to reach Rumania
  • 6 November 1942 (p. 1):
    “Norwegian Jews will be deported to Lithuania; German refugees sent back to Reich
  • 20 November 1942 (p. 2):
    “Nazis decide to make Latvia ‘judenrein’; deport all Jews from Riga ghetto
  • 7 January 1943 (p. 1):
    “Deported Warsaw Jews held by Nazis in Pinsk district isolated from world
  • 21 November 1943 (p. 2):
    “Jews deported from Aegean islands; more Jews wanted for Minsk fortifications
  • 23 November 1943 (p. 2):
    “Germans reported planning to deport 15,000 Italian Jews to Russia for forced labor
Going to the website gives more information on each of the summaries above; at the least this shows that there were huge deportations to the Russian East. Each of the summaries above is worthy of extensive discussion.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:25 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:57 pm
I am happy to end discussion about the unevidenced transports deniers claim took place from the AR camps to the Ostland and RKU in 1942-3 and move to where millions of Jews were supposedly being accommodated in the area at that time.
Evidence was given that some walked. It is only 122.7 km from the Bug river to Bialystok so the likely scenario is trucking; the cheapest is walking.
This area was in a fog of war where evidence was obliterated as quickly as it was produced. It has been mentioned several times that there were 60 customs facilities from the General Government to surrounding areas. Only a few records have remained of transportation to the facilities with none for the arbeitslager at Treblinka; one cannot make a vast judgement on the basis of scanty records relying solely on eye witness testimony, especially when those people had clear links with resistance organizations.

The Station Master records show conclusively that people departed Bialystok to Lublin via the Treblinka customs facility; some stayed for over a week which means there must have been barracks there; or stayed on the train. 11 thousand
people passed through this facility in August 43 and stayed while exterminations were going on apparently. None of those people reported anything amiss, nor did they report anything at all, that has come to light so far.

These people were most likely people sent to Bialystok earlier through the same facility and then sent back.

It is likely the deportations back into the General Government occurred earlier as well. Wiki reports:
On February 5–12, 1943, the first group of approximately 10,000 Białystok Jews were rounded up by the mobile battalions for the mass 'evacuation' of the ghetto. They were sent aboard Holocaust trains to their deaths at the Treblinka extermination camp.

This is similar to what Arad writes when after the Bialystok uprising he said:
The transports, which included seventy-six freight cars, arrived in Treblinka on August 18 and 19, 1943 The other three transports passed through Treblinka, but continued on. One went to Majdanek; one to Auschwitz; and one with children to Theresienstadt.
This is totally at variance with the factual report given by Zabecki the Treblinka Station master.
In the night of August 16, 1943, several hundred Polish Jews began an armed insurrection against the troops carrying out the liquidation of the Ghetto. Two days later Franciszek Zabecki the Treblinka Station Master reports:
  1. “On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews ‘PJ 201’ (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
  2. On 19 August, the transport ‘PJ 203’ (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
  3. On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, ‘PJ 204’ (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
  4. On 24 August, transport ‘PJ 209’ (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
  5. On 8 September, transport ‘PJ 211’ (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and
  6. On 17 September, transport ‘PJ 1025’ (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski[68] was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibór).”
What other evidence is there of people arriving or working in the area, perhaps dying even. Thomas Kues provides some answers which can be summarized here. Evidence of gassed jews in Eastern Territories.
  • Arad: “In the course of the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto, 3,000-4,000 of its residents were moved in the summer of 1942 to the Forest Camp (Waldlager) in the woods near the city of Bobruysk.(Belarussia)
  • Gerlach: “The general context suggests that Himmler’s journey to Mogilev and Smolensk had something to do with plans for deportations of Jews.
  • JTA Daily News Bulletin reports on deportations to the Occupied Eastern Territories
  • 25 September 1941 (p. 1):
    “Nazis plan to transfer Polish Jews to occupied Soviet territory
  • 20 October 1941 (p. 1):
    “Thousands of Jews Expelled from Germany to Pinsk Swamps in Poland
  • “Expelled Jews Will Be Used to Drain Marshes, Nazi Officials Announce
  • 10 February 1942 (p. 3):
    “Nazis proceeding with plan for ‘Jewish reservation,’(Eastern Europe) Berlin reports
  • 26 March 1942 (p. 1):
    “Lublin and Cracow Jews will spend passover digging trenches on the Nazi-Soviet front
  • 29 May 1942 (p. 3):
    “Germans Will Rule over Deported Slovakian Jews in Concentration Camps in Eastern Europe
  • 15 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “330,000 German Jews deported to Russia; deportations from Vienna resumed
  • 20 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “Jews of Europe will be deported to ‘colonial reservations,’ Nazi chief says
  • 26 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “Nazis begin large-scale deportations of Dutch Jews to Poland and occupied Russia
  • 28 July 1942 (p. 1):
    “Women, children, aged massacred in Warsaw ghetto as Nazis send Jews to Russian front
  • 4 September 1942 (p. 2):
    “Nazis in Holland plan to deport young Jews to Russia, others to Germany
  • 15 September 1942 (p. 1):
    “All Jews between 18 and 65 will be deported from Poland
  • 20 September 1942 (p. 1):
    “Unprecedented pogroms raging in Poland; large scale deportations of Jews reported
  • ONE THIRD OF DEPORTED JEWS DIE, NAZI OFFICIAL REPORTS
  • Mass deportations to the German-conquered regions of Eastern Europe have resulted in terrible ‘wastage of human life’ amounting in many instances to 30 per cent of the deportees, according to information received from underground sources in Germany.
  • 25 September 1942 (p. 3):
    “Nazis drive Jews and Poles hundreds of miles on foot to devastated Russian areas
  • 6 October 1942 (p. 1):
    “Trains with Jewish deportees leave Belgium for Nazi-held Ukraine
  • 7 October 1942 (p. 3):
    “Only 100,000 Jews left by the Nazis in Warsaw ghetto; mass-deportations continue
  • 16 October 1942 (p. 1):
    “Train carrying 20,000 Jews deported from France arrives in Bessarabia; many dead
  • 22 October 1942 (p. 2):
    “1,850 Jews from Poland and Western Europe executed by Nazis in Smolensk area
  • 30 October 1942 (p. 1):
    “Nazis deport Jewish women from Belgium; many sent to coal mines in Silesia
  • 1 November 1942 (p. 1):
    “Trains with Jewish deportees from France, Belgium, Holland continue to reach Rumania
  • 6 November 1942 (p. 1):
    “Norwegian Jews will be deported to Lithuania; German refugees sent back to Reich
  • 20 November 1942 (p. 2):
    “Nazis decide to make Latvia ‘judenrein’; deport all Jews from Riga ghetto
  • 7 January 1943 (p. 1):
    “Deported Warsaw Jews held by Nazis in Pinsk district isolated from world
  • 21 November 1943 (p. 2):
    “Jews deported from Aegean islands; more Jews wanted for Minsk fortifications
  • 23 November 1943 (p. 2):
    “Germans reported planning to deport 15,000 Italian Jews to Russia for forced labor
Going to the website gives more information on each of the summaries above; at the least this shows that there were huge deportations to the Russian East. Each of the summaries above is worthy of extensive discussion.
That is a lot of Jews for the Nazis to accommodate. Please show me the largest Jewish communities in the Ostand and RKU at the end of 1943.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Please show me the largest Jewish communities in the Ostand and RKU at the end of 1943.
Please do your own research and get back to the board when you have finished or wish something to be clarified.

It is clear from the article above that there were many more camps and konzentrationslager in the Eastern Territories than have been identified. An example is the following headline.
28 December 1944 (p. 3):
“Germans Liquidated Twenty-one ‘Jewish Camps’ in Riga District Prior to Retreat


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie mentioned but deleted the notion that Kues could not find large quantities of Juden by the end of 1943 in the Eastern Territories. Stalingrad was a key turning point in WW2, if not the main turning point. This battle ended 2 February 1943.
The other notable failure was the battle of Kursk ( 5 July 1943 – 23 August 1943 German Offensive; after Kursk the Germans in the East were on the defensive. This is shown on the map below:
Image
It is quite clear that the Reich was on the retreat. There are many reports of people being sent Westwards passing through the processing camps (the extermination assumption of course) but many joined partizani; Kues mentions an article by Heinz Kühnrich who said:
“On the territory of Belarus 413 Czechs and Slovaks and 211 Yugoslavs fought in the partisan divisions, in the Ukraine there were 1,848 Poles, 418 Czechs and Slovaks, 61 Yugoslavs. At the beginning of 1944, 2,000 Polish citizens fought in the Byelorussian partisan movement. In April 1944 there were more than 5,000 Poles operating on Soviet territory.”

In more recent research, M.I. Semiryaga presents partially diverging, partially more concrete numbers. According to his investigations, 1,216 foreigners fought in the Byelorussian partisan movement, whereof 413 Czechs and Slovaks (39 fallen), 275 Poles (22), 195 Yugoslavs (2), 69 Hungarians, 61 Frenchmen (4), 31 Belgians (6), 16 Dutchmen, 10 Romanians (9), 6 Italians (1), 3 Spaniards, 2 Bulgarians (1). In the Ukrainian partisan movement there were more than 2,500 foreigners: 1,848 Poles, 418 Czechs and Slovaks, 47 Hungarians, 61 Yugoslavs, 27 Greeks, 18 Frenchmen, 11 Romanians, 6 Bulgarians, 4 Spaniards and others.”


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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