Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:39 am
Your claims need sources.
Enough is enough. Sources are posted once or twice not on every occasion. The poster only considers posts in response to his favourite deniers; there is a woeful lack of consideration of other information as put in the 'formal propositions' section and elsewhere. This poster has no interest in the sources for interest and so his requests of any sort are denied. A person who wishes clarification may do so if they ask in good faith; the resident troll does not ask in good faith.

He, she or it has admitted on Klowns they only skim the posts here without full reading, responding only to annoy, not in any interest to find some other underlying reason for what happened.

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Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by Huntinger »

PrudentRegret is busy trying to conjure some sense into the Klowns. The thread there and here is similar, but here are his conclusions which are worthy of repeating on this forum.
PrudentRegret said:
It would be useful to start from a point on which we agree:
Nick Terry wrote: 2. by May 1942 at the latest, the processing of clothing left behind by deportees, together with the processing of clothing taken from deportees (remember that the Treuhandstellen have absolutely no right to the latter), was being organised centrally in Lublin. In a fully liquidated ghetto, say a county capital, then this would have been gathered together by the stay-behind clean-up squad and would yield a certain quantity of textiles. It would make more sense to ship these to the central Lublin sorting and processing depot than to mimic the sorting process in 54 different counties, especially for 'rags' and poor-quality textiles. Better-quality clothing could perhaps be sieved out and given or sold to the local ethnic German population, thereafter the Ukrainians or Poles, and this is what happened in the Galicia district, since the property-sorting and disposal was overseen by SS men from Vomi there.
So,
  • Confiscated property subject to the administration of Einsatz Reinhardt, for example clothing, was gathered centrally at the headquarters of the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke) established at the Lublin Airfield Camp, which was under the command of Christian Wirth during AR.
  • The Clothing and household goods were organized in various warehouses at these camps, and crates of valuables were unloaded from transports and sent to Wippern at Chopinstr. 27.
  • The property collected at this camp was both confiscated from deportees and collected from 'clean-up squads' salvaging useful property left being during Ghetto liquidations.
  • The muster extended to the entire General Government.
  • The Lublin Airfield Camp received transports from Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, and Majdanek.
  • Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were outposts of the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke) (Nick Terry, 2021).
As Nick Terry stated, it is more sensible to have centralized collection outposts where this property was collected, sorted, useless articles were destroyed, etc. rather than having this operation set up in 56 different counties.

Since the SS and Police were responsible for the deportation and the salvage operation, it was the responsibility of the SSPF of those districts to transfer certain property to the administration of Einsatz Reinhardt. In practice, how did that happen?

Given:
  1. The Lublin Airfield Camp processed transports of confiscated property from deportees and the liquidated Ghettos sourced from all around General Government.
  2. The Lublin Airfield Camp, insofar as I can tell, is associated with deliveries from Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, and Majdanek.
It stands to reason that the SSPF of districts around General Government used B, S, and T as ER collection points for not only the property carried by deportees but also for property collected from the liquidation of the Ghettos. Obviously not all property- property which was to be handed over to Einsatz Reinhardt.

The Katzmann Report

The Katzmann Report has already been mentioned in this thread due to the fact that it makes a distinction between the resettlement (Aussiedlung) and the 'parallel' initiative- the confiscation of Jewish property. This document establishes that Einsatz Reinhardt was associated with the latter.

But there is another question that is worth bringing up. From Mattogno, The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhardt" (p. 804):
Myers’s argument is even more ineffectual because by speaking of “Aktion Reinhard and Auschwitz camps,” he attempts to make believe that all of the proceeds of “Aktion Reinhardt” resulted from the “camps,” and in particular from Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka, whereas in reality the greater part obviously came in from the Ghettos. This already follows from the Katzmann report of 30 June 1943:

“Simultaneous with the resettlement operations, the seizure of Jewish property was carried out. Extraordinary assets were sequestered and placed at the disposal of the ‘Reinhard’ special staff. Besides the seized furniture and large amounts of textiles, etc. the following items were acquired and handed over to the ‘Reinhard’ special staff: […]”

Then a very specific and detailed description of the goods looted until 30 June 1943 follows, which ends with this sentence:

“During the fur operation carried out in December 1941, 35 freight cars of furs could be delivered.”

Therefore among the spoils of “Aktion Reinhardt” we find not only the Jewish goods looted from the Ghettos but also those seized even before “Aktion Reinhard” began.
The first part of Mattogno's argument, that 'in the reality greater part obviously came in from the Ghettos,' I suspect you all may disagree with, but the more important part is that we are in agreement that both property carried by deportees and salvaged from the liquidated Ghettos was sent to the central Lublin repository under Wirth.

Where my interpretation differs is that I do not believe goods delivered from Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka are mutually exclusive from goods salvaged from the liquidated Ghettos.

How did the SSPF in Galicia, Katzmann, hand over these dozens of cargo wagons of clothes, furs, and other items to Einsatz Reinhardt? The simplest explanation is that this property was loaded in cargo wagons and simply appended to the convoys to Belzec, those convoys which were arranged by Katzmann.

Belzec was an Einsatz Reinhardt camp and an outpost of the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke) . Transporting this property in the convoys to Belzec would constitute Katzmann 'handing over' this property to Einsatz Reinhardt. Belzec had facilities and a labor force dedicated to sorting and storing this sort of property. Transports and deliveries from Belzec to the central Lublin Airfield camp were arranged by the SS-Sonderkommando.

There were also necessary pre-processing steps that were mandated by August Frank's WVHA decree: removing the Jewish Star from clothing, searching for hidden valuables, removing identifying information, etc. This task was delegated to the secret Pabianice camp in the Warthegau because these pre-processing steps were considered sensitive and confidential. We know that Belzec was also responsible for conducting these pre-processing steps for property it processed, steps which also would have been necessary for property salvaged from the liquidated ghettos.

As mentioned before, I have only seen transports from Majdanek, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka noted to the Lublin Airfield camp. If this property was sent to the Lublin camp directly, there would have been many ad-hoc transports from many different counties and districts and that would have been a very bad way to collect that property from all around the General Government.

Finally, an important task in this entire initiative was the destruction of useless property. It is highly unlikely that ER wanted every single object transported from Katzmann's liquidated Ghettos to go straight to the Lublin repository. It is far more likely that this property mentioned by Katzmann would first be sorted, and useless articles destroyed, outside the Lublin camp itself. That would be another function of this property being funneled through Belzec.

Unless someone wants to offer a different explanation than the conclusion that this property was transferred to ER on convoys to Belzec, that stands as the most logical and likely conclusion. The Pabianice sorting camp also received transports of this same type of property from the liquidated Ghettos in addition to the luggage of deportees from Chelmno. So this conclusion also squares with the process in the Warthegau. Recall that earlier I pointed out many parallels between the Pabianice sorting camp and B, S, and T. So Belzec receiving transports of property from the liquidated Ghettos would be another parallel with the Pabianice sorting camp.
Nothing in the information PR has given gives the slightest hint of jüdische Ausrottung, but everything to do with financial expediency or stealing if you wish. :mrgreen:

The new member there called hoohah, in the Nessie vein dribbles on with the following:
hoohah wrote:there's next to nothing about evacuation/resettlement
.
🐬 quickly follows with the normal mundane
🐬 wrote:What happened to them?
It, for some reason cannot enter the embryonic neuron of the dolphin like poster that the relocation of the villagers had nothing to do with Einsatz Reinhardt; this is because ER was a purely economic affair conjured up by the secretary for Finance, Fritz Reinhardt to exploit the current situation of transportation and potential evacuation. Whether or not the SS killed these people is another affair; they could have been beamed up on a Star Ship for all that ER was concerned.

It stands to reason in all jails world wide, that civilian clothing is removed from all inmates or häftlinge in konzentrationslager and they are given prison garb to wear as in Auschwitz. Yet the inane comments continue:
Jeff 8675309 wrote:if they didn’t die in these camps the Jews were sent forth stark naked and penniless into the USSR.
Another 🃏 gets upset when they see their 'house of cards' crumble.
🃏 wrote:You can see Prudent trying to twist every possible aspect of the 'narrative' to bend in towards the idea that Jews were not exterminated.


It has not occurred to this brainbox that the thread is not about whether the villagers were murdered in part, some or all but about the naming of Einsatz Reinhardt. With the amount of dribble flowing it must be hard not to constantly slip up. :)

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by PrudentRegret »

Thanks Huntinger.

Belzec had a railway depot and a labor force that would have been used to sort and store this large amount of property from the liquidated Ghettos that was handed over by SSPF Galicia to Einsatz Reinhardt.

Witnesses say that all of the property processed at BST came from murdered Jewish deportees. But witnesses also said that sanitation facilities constructed by the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke) at Majdanek were used to exterminate millions of people. In reality, they were used to disinfect clothing.

Image

Graf, Mattogno - Concentration Camp Majdanek (p. 323) produced the work order for the construction installation of a chimney in the Bathhouse of Majdanek (Chamber IV). The Soviet-Polish commission, and the most common witness accounts, claimed this installation was the center of gas chamber extermination at Majdanek. The work order was submitted by the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke).

Image

BST were also outposts of the SS Clothing Works. Given the fact that the installations & operation of the SS Clothing Works was the center of false 'secret death factory' propaganda at Majdanek, one should be particularly skeptical that the SS Clothing Works operation at Belzec was actually a secret death factory.

Both claims are attached to the same SS Clothing Works operation under Christian Wirth and Einsatz Reinhardt.

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by Huntinger »

PrudentRegret wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:31 am
Thanks Huntinger.

Belzec had a railway depot and a labor force that would have been used to sort and store this large amount of property from the liquidated Ghettos that was handed over by SSPF Galicia to Einsatz Reinhardt.

Witnesses say that all of the property processed at BST came from murdered Jewish deportees. But witnesses also said that sanitation facilities constructed by the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke) at Majdanek were used to exterminate millions of people. In reality, they were used to disinfect clothing.

Image

Graf, Mattogno - Concentration Camp Majdanek (p. 323) produced the work order for the construction installation of a chimney in the Bathhouse of Majdanek (Chamber IV). The Soviet-Polish commission, and the most common witness accounts, claimed this installation was the center of gas chamber extermination at Majdanek. The work order was submitted by the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke).

Image

BST were also outposts of the SS Clothing Works. Given the fact that the installations & operation of the SS Clothing Works was the center of false 'secret death factory' propaganda at Majdanek, one should be particularly skeptical that the SS Clothing Works operation at Belzec was actually a secret death factory.

Both claims are attached to the same SS Clothing Works operation under Christian Wirth and Einsatz Reinhardt.
Thank you PR.
To reinforce your post, which I believe is correct, all of the ER locations had customs border facilities. There was one at Belzec, which means where there is a customs border facility, people enter and exit.
Image

Of course we will get the normal "where did they go" from flipper, but in the Belzec case, the border in the Belzec region was the Ukraine, a part of the Soviet Union at the time. Of course after Barbarossa, the border was extended further south to infringe upon Romania; the Ukrainian part became Galizien (Galicia) with 6 known Zollgrenzschutz command posts. Jaroslau bordered the Ukraine in Galicia.

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by Nessie »

PrudentRegret wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:31 am
Thanks Huntinger.

Belzec had a railway depot and a labor force that would have been used to sort and store this large amount of property from the liquidated Ghettos that was handed over by SSPF Galicia to Einsatz Reinhardt.

Witnesses say that all of the property processed at BST came from murdered Jewish deportees. But witnesses also said that sanitation facilities constructed by the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke) at Majdanek were used to exterminate millions of people. In reality, they were used to disinfect clothing.

Image

Graf, Mattogno - Concentration Camp Majdanek (p. 323) produced the work order for the construction installation of a chimney in the Bathhouse of Majdanek (Chamber IV). The Soviet-Polish commission, and the most common witness accounts, claimed this installation was the center of gas chamber extermination at Majdanek. The work order was submitted by the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke).

Image

BST were also outposts of the SS Clothing Works. Given the fact that the installations & operation of the SS Clothing Works was the center of false 'secret death factory' propaganda at Majdanek, one should be particularly skeptical that the SS Clothing Works operation at Belzec was actually a secret death factory.

Both claims are attached to the same SS Clothing Works operation under Christian Wirth and Einsatz Reinhardt.
The Hofle Telegram, along with other transportation documents, prove that hundreds of thousands of Jews were sent to each AR camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:06 pm
The Hofle Telegram, along with other transportation documents, prove that hundreds of thousands of Jews were sent to each AR camp.
Image
The telegram above says according to the translators
Common Translation
Operation Reinhard. Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42.L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335 totaling

The telegram actually says:
Einsatz REINHART. Bezug: dort. Fs. Zugang bis 31.12.41. L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335 zusammen...
Real Translation
Operation REINHART. Reference: there. Fs. Access until 31.12.41. L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335 totalling.
Fs is likely to mean Fährt Sortierzentrum or drives to Sorting Centre.
The German does not mention recorded arrivals at all. Note the deliberate misspelling of the name Reinhart in the first english translation to Reinhard.
Last edited by Huntinger on Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by PrudentRegret »

That is a very interesting clarification, thanks Huntinger.

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by Huntinger »

PrudentRegret wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:43 pm
That is a very interesting clarification, thanks Huntinger.
Fs is likely to mean Fährt Sortierzentrum or 'drives to Sorting Centre'. If so the Höfle telegram can be seen in the same light as you have exposed. Drives can be changed to ride or "rides to sorting centre". German word meaning run, ride or drive (no synonym to the english word fart :mrgreen: ). This word implies more than one form of transportation being running, riding in a train or on horse including wagon or motor vehicle (driving or as a passenger in a bus or truck)

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by PrudentRegret »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:46 pm
PrudentRegret wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:43 pm
That is a very interesting clarification, thanks Huntinger.
Fs is likely to mean Fährt Sortierzentrum or 'drives to Sorting Centre'. If so the Höfle telegram can be seen in the same light as you have exposed. Drives can be changed to ride or "rides to sorting centre". German word meaning run, ride or drive (no synonym to the english word fart :mrgreen: ). This word implies more than one form of transportation being running, riding in a train or on horse including wagon or motor vehicle (driving or as a passenger in a bus or truck)
This would be significant if true. I do not know German or enough about abbreviations to assess the likelihood of the meaning of Fs. But if it denoted arrivals at a Sorting Center that would definitely be very interesting.

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Re: Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt- not Reinhard Heydrich

Post by Nessie »

PrudentRegret wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:43 pm
That is a very interesting clarification, thanks Huntinger.
Huntinger does not speak German and he is using google translate. The Hofle Telegram is corroborated by the 1942 Warsaw shuttle train record;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fl ... blinka.jpg

"Purpose: daily deportations; returning empty"

The 1942 Ganzenmuller letter, Albert Ganzenmuller being head of the Reichsbahn;

http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ ... eller2.jpg

"...one train per day with 5000 Jews goes from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka" and he goes on to reference Belzec and Sobibor in the same paragraph.

The 1943 Stroop Report;

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... t-may-1943

"...and 6,929 by transporting them to T.II, which means 14,000 Jews were exterminated altogether..."

The 1943 Korherr Report;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

"Number passed through the camps in the General Government 1274166
Through the camp at Warthegau 145301"

There are also records from ghettos of mass transports of people to the various camps, such as the Dutch transports from Westerbork to Sobibor;

https://www.sobibor.org/en/the-nineteen-transports/

There are multiple documents from different countries that prove mass transports of people to the camps at TII, Belzec and Sobibor.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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