What Do Laws Have to do With It? Or the endless discussion about Treblinka

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been-there
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by been-there » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:28 am

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:39 am
Nessie wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:23 am
...StephenP ...has a history degree and he teaches it. I have a history degree, but I do not teach.
Your posts and beliefs in the irrational and impossible render your claim to a degree in history dubious.
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Turnagain » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 am

Been-there, I can understand belief in the holyhoax if it is taken as a religion. The impossibilities could be explained as miracles or the work of Satan and witchcraft. There are multiple references to hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers being supplied with lethal concentrations of CO from an engine taken from a Soviet tank or having the air evacuated from them. The absurdity of such claims is so outlandish as to be dismissed out of hand yet we have multitudes of supposedly rational people insisting that such fantasies are accurate, true events.

Equally absurd are the claims that the Germans excavated huge pits up to 40 feet deep, filled them with hundreds of thousands of corpses only to then decide to exhume and cremate them. Can graves capable of containing up to 250,000 cadavers be found anywhere else in the world? Can archeologists show any such burial excavations from anytime during history? No, of course not.

We then come to the ultimate absurdity. What I refer to as the magic Jew barbeque. Nothing in current science or historical precedent shows such a method of cremation to be even remotely possible. It takes fuel and substantial quantities of it to cremate a cadaver on an open pyre and even more to cremate bodies packed tightly on a grate above the flames. Again we have multitudes who insist that such an event took place. I confess that I can't comprehend the credibility of such people. Nessie insists that I'm under the illusion of a fallacy of incredulity. Hunh? Well, yes, in fact I am incredulous of the claim that thousands of bodies can be placed on a grate ~100 feet long to be set ablaze with some kindling and then be left to cremate themselves.

Personally I think that the holyhoax can maintain itself only as long as the actual details are suppressed or smoothed over. As these actual claims come to be known by the general population it will (and is) becoming known as a leftover propaganda hoax from the war. Even the most strenuous efforts by the controlled press and the pressures of political correctness are failing to keep the hoax alive. Time will tell.

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Nessie » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:57 am

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:02 am
Nessie wrote:
Gassings, graves and cremations are proved by the evidence.
Uh-huh, the statements from known liars, five tiny bone shards of unknown origin, some "disturbed ground" and some holes that match none of the dimensions of the alleged mass graves and more testimony by known liars about the magic Jew barbeque is proof, absolute PROOF that the holyhoax occurred as advertised.
That is a very dishonest misrepresentation of the evidence. You have not studied every single witness to the camp, you cannot prove any were lying about the gassings, burials and cremations. Photos show a large area of disturbed ground Blake measured at over 2 hectares. That GPR does not match the grave sizes given by witnesses is due to; GPR with limited depth readings, witnesses only being able to estimate, the construction of the memorial and the grave robbing. Over the years, particularly back in 1945, far more than five bones shards have been found at the site.
Of course just because nobody can come up with credible witnesses to this bizarre tale or any actual evidence of it occurring doesn't prevent the ever so clever but eeevul Narzis from knowing how to git 'er done.
Elsewhere, you are weasel dodging the evidence of Fuchs and Bauer, by demanding you are spoon fed what they said.
Nessie then triumphantly wails "Where did they gooooo?". Never mind that he can't even find the records for the 12-15,000 known to have been transported to the Lublin district. But he has the records for 406 deportees so that's good enough for holyhoax work.

Nessie tries to sell the greatest conspiracy theory of all time and fails. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
It is you who states 12-15,000 went to Majdanek. I linked to research that had that figure as only a couple of thousand. It is unreasonable for you to demand I provide every single record of a transport to Majdanek, especially when you cannot produce one single record to back up your claim of daily mass transports.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Nessie » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:58 am

This is typical of how childish been-there is.
been-there wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:28 am
Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:39 am
Nessie wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:23 am
...StephenP ...has a history degree and he teaches it. I have a history degree, but I do not teach.
Your posts and beliefs in the irrational and impossible render your claim to a degree in history dubious.
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It is you who is too stupid to understand that you have been fooled by the denier hoax.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Nessie » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:06 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 am
Been-there, I can understand belief in the holyhoax if it is taken as a religion. The impossibilities could be explained as miracles or the work of Satan and witchcraft. There are multiple references to hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers being supplied with lethal concentrations of CO from an engine taken from a Soviet tank or having the air evacuated from them. The absurdity of such claims is so outlandish as to be dismissed out of hand yet we have multitudes of supposedly rational people insisting that such fantasies are accurate, true events.

Equally absurd are the claims that the Germans excavated huge pits up to 40 feet deep, filled them with hundreds of thousands of corpses only to then decide to exhume and cremate them. Can graves capable of containing up to 250,000 cadavers be found anywhere else in the world? Can archeologists show any such burial excavations from anytime during history? No, of course not.

We then come to the ultimate absurdity. What I refer to as the magic Jew barbeque. Nothing in current science or historical precedent shows such a method of cremation to be even remotely possible. It takes fuel and substantial quantities of it to cremate a cadaver on an open pyre and even more to cremate bodies packed tightly on a grate above the flames. Again we have multitudes who insist that such an event took place. I confess that I can't comprehend the credibility of such people. Nessie insists that I'm under the illusion of a fallacy of incredulity. Hunh? Well, yes, in fact I am incredulous of the claim that thousands of bodies can be placed on a grate ~100 feet long to be set ablaze with some kindling and then be left to cremate themselves.

Personally I think that the holyhoax can maintain itself only as long as the actual details are suppressed or smoothed over. As these actual claims come to be known by the general population it will (and is) becoming known as a leftover propaganda hoax from the war. Even the most strenuous efforts by the controlled press and the pressures of political correctness are failing to keep the hoax alive. Time will tell.
Your arguments from incredulity are fallacies and you claiming it was not possible as described by some witnesses (whilst ignoring most of the witnesses) is not evidence, let alone proof that it was impossible. You are then contradicted by the evidence it was achieved. It does not matter that we do not know how precisely how the hermetic seals worked in conjunction with the gassing process and exactly what quantity of wood was used in the pyres. What is important is that it is EVIDENCED.

You then suspend credulity and demand we believe in mass daily transports, such that by the end of 1942 the Nazis had transported, fed, clothed and accommodated 1.274 million people, without leaving any EVIDENCE at all.

You then weasel dodge providing a rational explanation as why we should believe what is not evidenced to have happened, over what is evidenced.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by been-there » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:32 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 am
Been-there, I can understand belief in the holyhoax if it is taken as a religion.
Yes. It is similar to a religion, in that 'belief' and 'faith' in its core precepts are regarded as signs of a person's inherent 'goodness', and skepticism of any of its articles of faiths is regarded by 'faithful true-believers' as a sign of a person's demonic and wicked nature.
So in this way it is very literally similar to a 'religious' belief-system.

Also, as with a religion, applying the intellect critically to the 'belief' is not regarded as either a beneficial nor an appropriate approach.
My time at Skeptics posting as 'Really_skeptical' confirmed this. Literally no-one there is able to discuss the holocaust narrative calmly and reasonably. They ALL instantly went on the attack with insults and put downs for daring to question their sacrosanct belief system. That everyone there behaved in that way was a suprise and an eye-opener.
The first sign of someone actually engaging in a reasonable discussion for more than a couple of posts was what led to me being banned. I genuinely think they were afraid a sensible, reasonable dialogue concerning the cultish, religious aspect of their behaviour might lead to 'true-believers' losing their faith and starting to question it.

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 am
The impossibilities could be explained as miracles or the work of Satan and witchcraft. There are multiple references to hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers being supplied with lethal concentrations of CO from an engine taken from a Soviet tank or having the air evacuated from them. The absurdity of such claims is so outlandish as to be dismissed out of hand yet we have multitudes of supposedly rational people insisting that such fantasies are accurate, true events.

Equally absurd are the claims that the Germans excavated huge pits up to 40 feet deep, filled them with hundreds of thousands of corpses only to then decide to exhume and cremate them. Can graves capable of containing up to 250,000 cadavers be found anywhere else in the world? Can archeologists show any such burial excavations from anytime during history? No, of course not.

We then come to the ultimate absurdity. What I refer to as the magic Jew barbeque. Nothing in current science or historical precedent shows such a method of cremation to be even remotely possible. It takes fuel and substantial quantities of it to cremate a cadaver on an open pyre and even more to cremate bodies packed tightly on a grate above the flames. Again we have multitudes who insist that such an event took place. I confess that I can't comprehend the credibility of such people. Nessie insists that I'm under the illusion of a fallacy of incredulity. Hunh? Well, yes, in fact I am incredulous of the claim that thousands of bodies can be placed on a grate ~ 100 feet long to be set ablaze with some kindling and then be left to cremate themselves.
As with other forms of religious belief, even highly intelligent, rational, erudite, educated people pride themselves on their ability to consciously suppress their intellect when it comes to improbable facets of the followed 'belief-system'. Belief and submissive faith trumps intelligence and reason. If this happens even with highly educated, intelligent people, it is not suprising that we here will get little reasonable dialogue from the people responding who are so obviously of very little intelligence.

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 am
Personally I think that the holyhoax can maintain itself only as long as the actual details are suppressed or smoothed over.
I agree. And that relates to the title of this topic. Laws criminalising dissent are a last attempt at discouraging the masses from applying reason and critically analysing the narrative. This is why so much emphasis has been put on feeling empathy for and almost revering the so-called 'survivors'.
I suspect it is also why school children are sent on 'pilgrimages' to sites in Poland which are presented like sacrosanct centres of so-called unspeakable suffering. I.e. the mission is to make people 'emote' not 'think'.

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 am
As these actual claims come to be known by the general population it will (and is) becoming known as a leftover propaganda hoax from the war. Even the most strenuous efforts by the controlled press and the pressures of political correctness are failing to keep the hoax alive. Time will tell.
In medeival times, athiesm or agnosticism was treated as a crime. Ostracisation and even cruel executions were considered appropriate punishments unless the person recanted and professed belief in the creed and articles of faith.

Now in our own time it is only the 'religion' of Holocaust belief that behaves in the same medieval way. Fanatical true-believers have even tried to execute dissenters.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Turnagain » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:40 pm

Nessie wrote:
Your arguments from incredulity are fallacies...
The utter absurdity of the claims for the holyhoax are prima facie evidence that it's just a tired rehash of war propaganda. Your "evidence" that it actually occurred as advertised is a joke. The totality of the claims made for the holyhoax are ridiculous and you present nothing to substantiate the claims for gas/vacuum chambers that are either supplied by lethal quantities of CO by an engine taken from a Soviet tank or by having the air evacuated from the chambers.

Show us another example of anyone in the history of the world excavating 40 feet deep pits to bury hundreds of thousands of cadavers only to then exhume them and cremate them on what can only be described as a magic barbeque. You can't. Period. Full stop.

Incredulous? Of course I am. Any rational person with a scintilla of analytical ability would be incredulous. Your holyhoax claims are without merit. IOW, your trying to sell bullshit. "Evidence" my shiny hiny.

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Nessie » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:16 pm

been-there wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:32 pm
Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 am
Been-there, I can understand belief in the holyhoax if it is taken as a religion.
Yes. It is similar to a religion...
The Holocaust is evidence based. What happened inside the AR camps and A-B kremas has been determined by what is evidenced. That is unlike any religion.

Holocaust denial is not evidence based. Instead, it disputes the evidence for gassings and then refuses to evidence what did happen. It demands we believe in what is not evidenced to have happened. That is similar to many religions.
Also, as with a religion, applying the intellect critically to the 'belief' is not regarded as either a beneficial nor an appropriate approach.
My time at Skeptics posting as 'Really_skeptical' confirmed this. Literally no-one there is able to discuss the holocaust narrative calmly and reasonably. They ALL instantly went on the attack with insults and put downs for daring to question their sacrosanct belief system. That everyone there behaved in that way was a suprise and an eye-opener.
You were very provocative, you constantly called into question others intelligence and then you acted with mock horror that you got some abuse, amongst a whole load of evidence, which you ignored. You dodged questions and trolled and in those circumstances, you cannot expect to be treated with respect. You deliberately wind people up, so that when you cannot cope, you can use the abuse as a reason to back out of further discussion.

I did not abuse you at all, which is one of the reasons why you ignored me, because you did not have that as an excuse to disengage with any discussion you were struggling with.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Huntinger » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:32 pm

Nessie wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:16 pm
The Holocaust is evidence based. What happened inside the AR camps and A-B kremas has been determined by what is evidenced. That is unlike any religion.
Yet despite this constant assertion, when asked to provide compelling evidence apart from anecdotes and conjecture, supposition based on supposition there is none provided, which is why people like the poster is forced to go around in circles.
𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑
𝕲𝖊𝕾𝖙𝖆𝕻𝖔

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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Turnagain » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:40 pm

Huntinger wrote:
Yet despite this constant assertion, when asked to provide compelling evidence apart from anecdotes and conjecture, supposition based on supposition there is none provided, which is why people like the poster is forced to go around in circles.
Dreary, isn't it (I believe the Brits says "innit"). The Nessie mantra: "I have evidence" and "Where did they gooooo?".

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