What Do Laws Have to do With It? Or the endless discussion about Treblinka

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StephenP
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What Do Laws Have to do With It? Or the endless discussion about Treblinka

Post by StephenP »

My last topic went off the rails. I find that unfortunate but it seems to be common on this forum, OTOH, I admit that the topic I posted was rather broad and insulted some of the posters here. I will try and avoid that with this topic.

Holocaust deniers object to laws making such denial illegal. This is a good point and centers around a common phrase I see when I look into their various sites, blogs, etc. that "Truth Fears No Investigation" (my paraphrase). As a U.S. citizen I agree with the premise, I don't think that saying the Holocaust didn't happen should be illegal. I qualify that by saying if you couple that with calls to violence then no, it is not protected speech. So, to give an example, saying that the Holocaust didn't happen and there were no gas chambers is fine with me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But coupling that with calls to shoot up a synagogue in retaliation for the "spreading of lies" is not OK with me. That goes beyond the bounds of free speech. I also find linking that with posting antisemitic images and such extremely distasteful and guaranteed to turn me away.

Back to the issue of laws....

Holocaust denial is not the only type of denial that is illegal:

http://www.proyectos.cchs.csic.es/trans ... ial-crimes

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 49701.html

We see that some European countries have laws making it illegal to deny Communist crimes and Cambodia has a law making it illegal to deny the atrocities of Pol Pot.

I'm sure that there are other laws similar elsewhere but these are the ones I found at the Skeptics forum. Like many here I go there to read things but I am not a member.

Do these laws make the historical event doubtful?

Please stay on topic. No dredging up old business. No, I don't want to discuss gas chambers, witness testimony or evidence on where the Jews went. That is not the topic at hand.
Last edited by StephenP on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Jeffk1970
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Jeffk1970 »

Don’t mind me. This is my post so I can follow along.

Turnagain
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Turnagain »

Any time that governments have to pass heresy laws to enforce belief casts doubt on the event. Rather like governments passing laws against their serfs having the means to defend themselves or attack the ruling elites. It's being done for "public safety" and for the serfs "own good".

PrudentRegret
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by PrudentRegret »

Hi StephenP, I think that's definitely a fair question. First, I agree with your statement here:
As a U.S. citizen I agree with the premise, I don't think that saying the Holocaust didn't happen should be illegal. I qualify that by saying if you couple that with calls to violence then no, it is not protected speech. So, to give an example, saying that the Holocaust didn't happen and there were no gas chambers is fine with me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But coupling that with calls to shoot up a synagogue in retaliation for the "spreading of lies" is not OK with me. That goes beyond the bounds of free speech. I also find linking that with posting antisemitic images and such extremely distasteful and guaranteed to turn me away.
As I understand your post, your major point is that "there are laws against both sides": there are laws against Holocaust revisionists and some laws against denial of Communist atrocities. Here are some reasons why I believe the persecution of revisionism, in particular, is egregious:

1. Enforcement against Holocaust revisionists is very real.

Many people are currently in jail for the crime of Holocaust denial. Even prominent and celebrated historians, such as David Irving, have been thrown in jail for the crime of Holocaust denial. Are you aware of anybody in Europe that is in jail for denying Communist atrocities? You mentioned Cambodia, but that isn't as pertinent to trends in Europe and North America.

2. Persecution against Holocaust revisionism extends even to places like Amazon and YouTube.

When I was a kid, I remember reading Fahrenheit 451 and being taught that book burning was a form of intentional ignorance. I grew up with the impression that everybody felt that way, and I believed that there was a consensus in society that books should be free to be distributed and read. It was sad to learn that this was a myth when I became interested in Holocaust revisionism. Amazon has backtracked from their original principles of selling books freely, and have banned books on Holocaust revisionism.

Even the New York Times just the other day released an article on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/09/tech ... nazis.html
The retailer once said it would sell “the good, the bad and the ugly.” Now it has banished objectionable volumes
You can imagine the "objectionable volumes" Amazon is banning. Not communist literature, or revisionism of communist atrocities.

Also note that you can discuss Communist revisionism of atrocities like the Holodomar to your heart's content on YouTube. Holocaust revisionism on the other hand is strictly banned on the platform.

Of course, this persecution in and of itself doesn't make the historical event doubtful. What it does prove is that many people are spending a lot of time, effort, and money to make sure that you cannot access these materials and that you not be allowed to review the evidence and honestly debate your interpretation of it with others.

I am highly resentful of authoritarians that try to tell me what I can and cannot read, what I can and cannot believe, and what I can and cannot debate. Communists have no problem utilizing mainstream platforms like YouTube to share and debate their ideas. Holocaust revisionism is singled out for "special treatment."

So to answer your question- no, persecution of Revisionism doesn't in and of itself cast the Holocaust into doubt. But when society so readily bans books and abandons principles like free speech, you have to wonder: is the aggressiveness of this persecution due to the strength of the evidence for the Holocaust, or due to the weakness of it? I've only found the more I've researched the issue, the more obvious it's the latter.

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Huntinger
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Huntinger »

PrudentRegret wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:16 pm
So to answer your question- no, persecution of Revisionism doesn't in and of itself cast the Holocaust into doubt. But when society so readily bans books and abandons principles like free speech, you have to wonder: is the aggressiveness of this persecution due to the strength of the evidence for the Holocaust, or due to the weakness of it? I've only found the more I've researched the issue, the more obvious it's the latter.
The laws are inspired by die internationalen Juden und IsRa-El under the pretext of preventing hate speech. The reality is, that they are merely biding time, treading water; they know what is coming when the world wakes from its slumber and fireside complacency.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑
Alle Trolljuden werden ignoriert Hüntinger

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Nessie
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Nessie »

StephenP wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:39 pm
....
Do these laws make the historical event doubtful?
....
No.

The historical event of the Holocaust has been established by the evidence using a universally recognised and acceptable standard of investigation.

Denial presents no evidence. Instead, it presents itself as if it is the defence in a trial. It nitpicks at parts of the evidence for the Holocaust and then claims the entire narrative is a lie, as if every single witness to gassings and mass shootings has lied. It then suggests all the academic research is there to support the lie and the poor Nazis were coerced into admitting something they did not do. They reverse the burden of proof. They rely on logical fallacies to make their case. Scratch the surface of denial and you find anti-Semites, anti-Israel, Nazi apologists and conspiracy theorists who are promoting a fake history.

Denial could be lumped in with other lunatic claims, such as flat earthers (who at least understand it is up them to evidence their claims). But, flat earthers do not promote hate against a particular religion, culture or country. They are not trying to rehabilitate a fascist dictatorship over democratic rule. It is that promotion of hate that has caused some to fight back with denial laws.

Deniers like to claim the laws are there to protect a hoax. But that ignores the genuine reasons why the laws are there. It is denial that promotes the hoax and that hoax is largely driven by hate.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:29 am

Deniers like to claim the laws are there to protect a hoax. But that ignores the genuine reasons why the laws are there. It is denial that promotes the hoax and that hoax is largely driven by hate.
Sorry Jude, we know the reasons, that world you and they know is crumbling. It is not hate that promotes investigation but the truth.
We have turned your world upside down, but that is only the beginning.
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Nessie
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Nessie »

On this forum, many deniers will happily name call, bully, abuse, troll and demand the censoring or even removal of those who disagree with them, with the moderators often turning a blind eye. Another well known denier forum has strict censorship of posts to protect its denier narrative. In both cases, tactics are used to drive off dissent from the desired narrative. Denial happily creates its own set of rules designed to suppress opposition to its narrative.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
The historical event of the Holocaust has been established by the evidence using a universally recognised and acceptable standard of investigation.
"Jackson is away conducting his high grade lynching party in Nuremberg. I don't mind what he does to the Nazis, but I hate to see the pretense that he is running a court and proceeding according to the common law. This is a little too sanctimonious a fraud to meet my old-fashioned ideas."
Harlan Stone, Chief Justice, US Supreme Court.

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Nessie
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Re: What Do Laws Have to do With It?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:54 am
Nessie wrote:
The historical event of the Holocaust has been established by the evidence using a universally recognised and acceptable standard of investigation.
"Jackson is away conducting his high grade lynching party in Nuremberg. I don't mind what he does to the Nazis, but I hate to see the pretense that he is running a court and proceeding according to the common law. This is a little too sanctimonious a fraud to meet my old-fashioned ideas."
Harlan Stone, Chief Justice, US Supreme Court.
Nuremberg is not how what happened during the Holocaust was investigated. Completely separate from any court case regarding individual legal culpability, there has been a massive investigation, by numerous academics, from numerous countries. None of those academics have found any evidence to show that anything other than mass gassings took place at the AR camps and A-B kremas and other gassings at the T4 hospitals and camps such as Natzweiler-Struthof.

When all of the academics, no matter their political persuasion, country of origin, or any bias they may have, come to the same evidenced based conclusion, that the Nazis did gas people, then we have proof of what happened.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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