How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Huntinger » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:41 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:41 pm
What has been presented does not explain how the Nazis managed to transport, feed, clothe and accommodate 1.274 million people by the end of 1942, without leaving any evidence.
They were evicted into another territory, with subsequent loss of wealth. There were vacant buildings and really had to support themselves. The scenario depicted shows that the Germans did indeed relocate people into the homes of those expelled or executed.
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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Nessie » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am

In the fantasy world of denial, belief is demanded that;

1 - from the invasion east into the SU in 1941, to the end of 1942, some 1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states, without leaving any evidence of that happening. No witnesses, no documents, no physical evidence.

2 - from the invasion east into the SU in 1941, to the end of 1942, so the same time as 1, the Nazis were clearing the same territory as in 1 of its Jewish population, because those Jews the enemy of the Nazis and supporters of the partisans and Communists who were fighting them.

So, not only is there no evidence of resettlement, there is a very good reason why the Nazis would not want to resettle any Jews there.

It was the EG's job to clear the former Soviet states of Jews because the Jews were the enemy. The EG were reporting back that they were clearing those countries. That makes no sense if at the same time, those same places were being repopulated with 1.274 million Jews.

Not only is that claim stupid, it is unevidenced. Such claims by certain deniers, just gets and keeps them on ignore, because their claim is so idiotic that discussion with them is not worthwhile.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by been-there » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:12 pm

an idiotic troll wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
...belief is demanded that:
1 - from the invasion east into the SU in 1941, to the end of 1942, some 1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states, without leaving any evidence of that happening. No witnesses, no documents, no physical evidence.
No, you are again quite wrong: no "belief" of that is demanded at all.
No belief in anything is "demanded". It is only expected that those interested in historical accuracy will look at the known facts with impartiality, with honesty, and WITHOUT trying to make anything and everything fit any cherished 'belief".

For example if YOU were to try and do that, THEN you will find that there is a currently consensus narrative that DOES "demand" and enforce "belief", but it is not the one you are deluding yourself it is. Revisionism does not demand anything. It is the bogus historiography called 'holocaust' that "demands belief" and which punishes dissent.

So... This post by you again demonstrates that it is YOU who are approaching this whole topic from a delusional mind-set. It is you who has to lie and dishonestly twist reality to fit a fixed view, and with an attachment to a pre-decided compulsory conclusion.

A search for historical truth DOES NOT DOGMATICALLY ASSERT that anything happened. It certainly does not dogmatically assert that "1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states".
It DOES ask for evidence of the compulsory holocaust narrative be provided e to support its claim that those people were murdered in gas chambers and buried in the ground at the Aktion Reinhardt camps.
It is precisely because there has not as yet been any empirical evidence found that supports that fantastic claim, that asking for it has been made a punishable 'thought-crime'.
And it is precisely because evidence for THAT 'holocaust' claim is not available that YOU are deceitfully trying to reverse the burden of proof.

an idiotic troll wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
It was the EG's job to clear the former Soviet states of Jews because the Jews were the enemy. The EG were reporting back that they were clearing those countries.
Wrong again. The Einsatzgruppen were actually a special task force whose mission was to secure and protect the conquered areas from rear-guard action after military expansion. This was obviously and naturally predominantly combatting guerrilla action by non-uniformed (i.e. partisan) groups.
You are just unintelligently repeating the narrative that has been made compulsory. That did include wiping out and massacring Jewish communities, sure. But was that purely because they were 'Jewish' or because they were suspected of rear-guard Military action and sabotage? This is the question any honest investigator would be open-minded about. There is no conclusive answer that applies to every situation.
In other words, you are just stupidly regurgitating the compulsory narrative that everyone has been conditioned with and which it is "demanded" everyone accept submissively.
The movement for historical accuracy merely wants that to be permitted to be re-assessed and if and when necessary, REVISED!!!

an idiotic troll wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
That makes no sense if at the same time, those same places were being repopulated with 1.274 million Jews.
You have started from a false premise. So naturally your conclusion will not make sense.

an idiotic troll wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
Not only is that claim stupid, it is unevidenced. Such claims by certain deniers, just gets and keeps them on ignore, because their claim is so idiotic that discussion with them is not worthwhile.
If only YOU would keep everyone on ignore, this forum would be a better place. But again the reality is the opposite of what you believe. I.e. you don't have anyone on ignore AND instead you are constantly commenting on everyone's posts.
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or they cease being honest"
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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Huntinger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:24 pm

Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
In the fantasy world of denial, belief is demanded that;
1 - from the invasion east into the SU in 1941, to the end of 1942, some 1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states, without leaving any evidence of that happening. No witnesses, no documents, no physical evidence.
No one is talking about former Soviet States except the part of Poland East of the Bug river that was briefly annexed by the Russians after the Molotov Rippentrop pact; the Russians took most of the Poles with them including the Js, which meant that huge swarths of land and houses were unoccupied.

In 1940, after Russia invaded Poland, Stalin deported 1.7 million Poles to slave labour camps in Siberia and Kazakhstan. About 400 000 survived. The Reich was well aware of this mass dislocation of people. It makes sense that if they had known and wanted people out this is where they would go.
Lets look at what information there is, once more.
  • Soviets occupy Eastern Poland 1 September 1939 to 22 June 1941. This is 660 days or one year 9 months 21 days.
  • They leave taking 1.7 million people of which 1.03 million were Js. This left land and houses vacant.
  • From a German perspective Eastern Poland was the "Russian East" in reference to the fact it was once Russian territory.
  • The Germans did not want Js in the Generalgouvernement, a separate administration with border guards and customs.
  • Juden had already been evicted into Russian territory in columns prior to Barbarossa over the Bug and Sans rivers.
  • The Eastern Poland referred to as Russian East was Reichkommissariat Ukraine.
  • The zollgrenzschutz was reformed again with new initiatives by 1937 by Fritz Reinhardt, a state secretary of the Finance Ministry. The zollgrenzschutz prime role was customs although they could function as border and immigration officers. Border patrols were carried out by the Grenzpolizei
  • All of the AR camps were located on the Border between the Generalgouvernement and Russian territory.
  • The barber shop stripes shown in the Sobibor photos depict border guard/ customs checkpoints which are still used today. See modern photo below.
  • Zollgrenzschutz officer is clearly shown in the Sobibor photos; the relaxed attitude indicates he actually works there but taking a break.
  • Trawniki guards are nicely dressed, well presented. Extremely well placed to introduce people into Ukrainian Territory.
  • Sobibor photo from the West where camp one was described shows a space devoid of buildings, which indicates that the eyewitness who made these maps is not honest; this indicates that the rest of the map is in serious jeopardy of integrity.
  • There is no reason why people expelled from the Generalgouvernement would not settle into area evacuated by previous occupants.
  • Korherr Reich Statistician said "Deported to the Russian east: 1,449,692 Jews. Processed at the camps of General Government: 1,274,166 Jews".
  • Einsatzgruppen were after Partizani in the area Under Military Administration in the map below.
  • After hostilities the Soviet Government had control of that area and its people. It was never returned to Poland. The area today where the people were evacuated to is Belarus and the Ukraine. The boundary is the Bug river. The area where these people were evicted to was behind the Iron Curtain.
Image
Check point Poland and Ukraine today
Image
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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Nessie » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:45 pm

a moron wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:12 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
...belief is demanded that:
1 - from the invasion east into the SU in 1941, to the end of 1942, some 1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states, without leaving any evidence of that happening. No witnesses, no documents, no physical evidence.
No, you are again quite wrong: no "belief" of that is demanded at all.
No belief in anything is "demanded". It is only expected that those interested in historical accuracy will look at the known facts with impartiality, with honesty, and WITHOUT trying to make anything and everything fit any cherished 'belief".

For example if YOU were to try and do that, THEN you will find that there is a currently consensus narrative that DOES "demand" and enforce "belief", but it is not the one you are deluding yourself it is. Revisionism does not demand anything. It is the bogus historiography called 'holocaust' that "demands belief" and which punishes dissent.
You demand that we believe c1.274 million people were not gassed at the AR camps. By default, since those camps cannot have accommodated those people, that also means you demand we believe they were transported to and fed and clothed at camps or ghettos elsewhere.

You have no evidence to support that demand.
So... This post by you again demonstrates that it is YOU who are approaching this whole topic from a delusional mind-set. It is you who has to lie and dishonestly twist reality to fit a fixed view, and with an attachment to a pre-decided compulsory conclusion.
I produce evidence from eye witnesses, documents, physical items, archaeology, forensics, photos etc to prove my claim. That is how all historical events are normally evidenced. No historical event is evidenced otherwise.
A search for historical truth DOES NOT DOGMATICALLY ASSERT that anything happened. It certainly does not dogmatically assert that "1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states".
If they were not gassed at the camps, they must have left the camps and been taken elsewhere, fed, clothed and provided accommodation. If you say it was not in the former Soviet states, where was it? Hungary? France?
It DOES ask for evidence of the compulsory holocaust narrative provide evidence to support its claim that those people were murdered in gas chambers and buried in the ground at the Aktion Reinhardt camps.
It is precisely because there has not as yet been any empirical evidence found that supports that fantastic claim that asking for it has been made a punishable 'thought-crime'.
You ignore normal standards of evidencing and you have shifted the goalposts to demand a standard that makes it impossible in your mind to evidence gassings. You think that if we cannot meet your standard, you can therefore conclude no gassings. That is a non sequitur.
Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
It was the EG's job to clear the former Soviet states of Jews because the Jews were the enemy. The EG were reporting back that they were clearing those countries.
Wrong again. The Einsatzgruppen were actually a special task force whose mission was to secure and protect the conquered areas from rear-guard action after military expansion. This was obviously and naturally predominantly combatting guerrilla action by non-uniformed (i.e. partisan) groups.
You are just unintelligently repeating the narrative that has been made compulsory. That did include wiping out and massacring Jewish communities, sure. But was that purely because they were 'Jewish' or because they were suspected of rear-guard Military action and sabotage? This is the question any honest investigator would be open-minded about. There is no conclusive answer that applies to every situation.
In other words, you are just stupidly regurgitating the compulsory narrative that everyone has been conditioned with and which it is "demanded" everyone accept submissively.
The movement for historical accuracy merely wants that to be permitted to be re-assessed and if and when necessary, REVISED!!!
The Jewish people were regarded as an enemy of Nazism and Germany. That was why the Nuremberg Laws were introduced, why Jews were segregated, required to wear Star of David badges and they were ghettoised and imprisoned. It is why the Final Solution was devised to make Europe Jew free.

It makes no sense that whilst the EG massacred Jews alongside partisans and Communists, to then replace those Jews with millions from the west, who were also regarded and treated as an enemy.
Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
That makes no sense if at the same time, those same places were being repopulated with 1.274 million Jews.
You have started from a false premise. So naturally your conclusion will not make sense.
I have started from the evidence the Nazis regarded the Jews as one of their enemies. It did not matter if they were French, Dutch, German, Polish, Greek or Ukrainian Jews. Jews were an enemy and a danger to Germany.

So, why massacre Ukrainian Jews as an enemy and then replace them with other Jews, also regarded as the enemy?
Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
Not only is that claim stupid, it is unevidenced. Such claims by certain deniers, just gets and keeps them on ignore, because their claim is so idiotic that discussion with them is not worthwhile.
If only YOU would keep everyone on ignore, this forum would be a better place. But again the reality is the opposite of what you believe. I.e. you don't have anyone on ignore AND instead you are constantly commenting on everyone's posts.
Not true. I post in only a few threads, it is just they are active because there are deniers who want to debate. I have Huntinger and his sock puppets and Gerdes and his sock puppets on ignore because they are fantasists who post the most stupid comments. They know nothing of the topic and evidencing and like you, often resort to plagiarism to try and make themselves appear as if they know something.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by been-there » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:49 pm

Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:45 pm
been-there wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:12 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
...belief is demanded that:
1 - from the invasion east into the SU in 1941, to the end of 1942, some 1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states, without leaving any evidence of that happening. No witnesses, no documents, no physical evidence.
No, you are again quite wrong: no "belief" of that is demanded at all.
No belief in anything is "demanded". It is only expected that those interested in historical accuracy will look at the known facts with impartiality, with honesty, and WITHOUT trying to make anything and everything fit any cherished 'belief".

For example if YOU were to try and do that, THEN you will find that there is a currently consensus narrative that DOES "demand" and enforce "belief", but it is not the one you are deluding yourself it is. Revisionism does not demand anything. It is the bogus historiography called 'holocaust' that "demands belief" and which punishes dissent.
You demand that we believe c1.274 million people were not gassed at the AR camps.
Provide evidence for that assertion.

Actually, don't bother. We both know you cannot, and that you are not here to engage in honest discussion.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Huntinger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:14 pm

Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:45 pm
  1. The Jewish people were regarded as an enemy of Nazism and Germany. That was why the Nuremberg Laws were introduced, why Jews were segregated, required to wear Star of David badges and they were ghettoised and imprisoned. It is why the Final Solution was devised to make Europe Jew free.
  2. It makes no sense that whilst the EG massacred Jews alongside partisans and Communists, to then replace those Jews with millions from the west, who were also regarded and treated as an enemy.
  3. I have started from the evidence the Nazis regarded the Jews as one of their enemies. It did not matter if they were French, Dutch, German, Polish, Greek or Ukrainian Jews. Jews were an enemy and a danger to Germany.
  4. So, why massacre Ukrainian Jews as an enemy and then replace them with other Jews, also regarded as the enemy?
They were interned as potential 5th columnists exactly as to what happened in the UK under Regulation 18b, Emergency powers Act, 1939 for 70 000 Germans and Austrians living within the UK.

The partizani for a large part were Bolshevik Juden under the control of the red Army; though sometimes they did not know who they were fighting. The Bielski brothers gives a good account of the treachery and arbitrary death sentences carried out by the Partizani and Red Army on each other.

The massacre of Ukrainian Juden is a myth of propaganda. Most of the propaganda of course comes from the Soviets who knew all about atrocities; it always helps when one does something shocking to blame it on others. However, it is not the Ukraine that is being spoken about only the Land which was once Poland just to the East of the Bug river where its population were removed and left houses and land vacant. 1.7 million go and 1.25 million move in from across the river.

To all purposes these people were relocated to the Russian East as mentioned. The only people who went to the far East were the 1.7 million the Soviets forcibly removed from that area. I should imagine that after paying their dues and passing through the AR camps they were released from Protective Custody, which only the SS could authorize.

One must keep in mind that this is not a happy story; many Js had typhus and had to fend for themselves. The administration of the Reichs Kommissariat Ukraine is also a topic of great importance and perhaps needs to be discussed.

This area also became a major war zone and no happy land; people would have been on the move escaping the shells and bombs.
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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Nessie » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:46 am

been-there wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:49 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:45 pm
been-there wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:12 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:49 am
...belief is demanded that:
1 - from the invasion east into the SU in 1941, to the end of 1942, some 1.274 people were transported through the AR camps, to live in the former Soviet states, without leaving any evidence of that happening. No witnesses, no documents, no physical evidence.
No, you are again quite wrong: no "belief" of that is demanded at all.
No belief in anything is "demanded". It is only expected that those interested in historical accuracy will look at the known facts with impartiality, with honesty, and WITHOUT trying to make anything and everything fit any cherished 'belief".

For example if YOU were to try and do that, THEN you will find that there is a currently consensus narrative that DOES "demand" and enforce "belief", but it is not the one you are deluding yourself it is. Revisionism does not demand anything. It is the bogus historiography called 'holocaust' that "demands belief" and which punishes dissent.
You demand that we believe c1.274 million people were not gassed at the AR camps.
Provide evidence for that assertion.

Actually, don't bother. We both know you cannot, and that you are not here to engage in honest discussion.
You demand belief in the claim that 1.274 million people were not gassed at the AR camps, because you refuse to and cannot evidence your claim.

Instead of providing evidence to prove your claim, going back over your posts here, you name call, abuse and ridicule as you demand that others believe you.

Instead of providing evidence to prove your claim, you demand to see "empirical" evidence to disprove your claim, in a clear reversal of the burden of proof.

Instead of providing evidence to prove your claim, you ignore the normal academic standard of investigating history, where witnesses, documents, physical evidence etc is traced and that evidence determines what happened, you demand that we believe in what is not evidenced to have happened.

As you can see, I can easily show how demanding you are. Now, back on topic, how can transporting and accommodating 1.274 million people leave no evidence?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Turnagain » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:05 am

Nessie wrote:
As you can see, I can easily show how demanding you are. Now, back on topic, how can transporting and accommodating 1.274 million people leave no evidence?
How could hundreds of trains outbound from the AR camps not leave any records of their travel? Your whining wail of, "Where did they gooooo?" is a bust, Nessie.

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Re: How can transporting & accommodating 1.274 million leave no evidence?

Post by Nessie » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:37 am

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:05 am
Nessie wrote:
As you can see, I can easily show how demanding you are. Now, back on topic, how can transporting and accommodating 1.274 million people leave no evidence?
How could hundreds of trains outbound from the AR camps not leave any records of their travel? Your whining wail of, "Where did they gooooo?" is a bust, Nessie.
There are surviving records. Zabecki's records survived. The Warsaw shuttled train record survives. We know Mattogno found records at Majdanek of arrivals from other AR camps. There are records at A-B of arrivals of Dutch Jews from Sobibor. Unless you have searched the archives of the various ghettos that sent people to the AR camps and of the train companies themselves, such as DB AG and SNCF, you cannot say that there are no records of where the trains went after they unloaded at the AR camps.

Here is a list of transports regarding TII;

https://web.archive.org/web/20130522164 ... today.html

It includes references to various Fahrplananordnung recording the transports. Trains were shuttling back and forth from ghettos to TII and back again all over that part of Poland.

For you to claim there are no records of train movements after unloading at the AR camps, is just another one of your lies.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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