Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

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The Marxist Corey
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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by The Marxist Corey » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:29 am

Been-there doesn’t seem to understand the difference between rhetoric and reality.

Richard J. Evans:
True, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be “the socialism of fools...
Educate yourself.

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by been-there » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:36 am

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:29 am
Been-there doesn’t seem to understand the difference between rhetoric and reality.
Richard J. Evans wrote:blah, blah, blah...
— My advice is that first you acknowledge and recognise your 'American' conditioning.

— Then, try and develop a habit of thinking for yourself. In other words, don't rely on authority figures to think for you.

— Finally, learn to admit when you are wrong. Resist the egocentric urge to go into denial when confronted with a reality you were unaware of that refutes your current understanding.

E.g.I just gave you an example where Hitler's SOCIALIST rhetoric and reality coincided.

Here it is again

Image
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by The Marxist Corey » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:37 am

been-there wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:27 am
The problem for a great many people who have been educated in America and subjected to American conditioning is that they are not intellectually equipped to understand any form of semantic social/political/historical/moral complexity and subtlety.

That is why they can not understand that if you doubt some aspects of the protected 'holocaust' narrative that DOES NOT mean that you reject ALL of it.
Such people can not get their head round such a simple truth.

Likewise now here with the reality that there are many varieties of socialism. Corey simply can't understand that.

Not only are there many versions of socialism, the obvious corollary of that therefore is that there is no single definition that encapsulates all of these variations.
But again for someone like Corey, this is a quite incomprehensible reality. Sad really. :|
LOL at you trying to get personal information from me. It’s not going to work. Your silly mind games don’t fool me.

Why don’t you go and grab a dictionary and look at the definitions of capitalism and socialism? You think the two systems are compatible with each other. Such a statement shows your ignorance.

Quote me when I stated that there are not different types of socialism. You will not be able to do that because I never stated that at all. Awwww, is that another example of a Holocaust denier using a fallacy? Of course. Surprise, surprise, NOT! What I did state which is the truth is that the Third Reich was not economically socialist and that the Nazis were not socialists.

Go to your local library and borrow Richard J. Evans’ Third Reich trilogy and read them. Or, will that be too hard for you?

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by The Marxist Corey » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:43 am

been-there wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:36 am
The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:29 am
Been-there doesn’t seem to understand the difference between rhetoric and reality.
Richard J. Evans wrote:blah, blah, blah...
— My advice is that first you acknowledge and recognise your 'American' conditioning.
You don’t know my nationality.
— Then, try and develop a habit of thinking for yourself. In other words, don't rely on authority figures to think for you.
I do think for myself. I don’t rely on “authority figures”, but I do read books by respected academics, scholars and historians. I’ll taken Evans’, Kershaw’s or any other historian’s words over a Holocaust denier and someone who thinks that the Nazis were socialists.
— Finally, learn to admit when you are wrong. Resist the egocentric urge to go into denial when confronted with a reality you were unaware of that refutes your current understanding.
I do admit when I am in the wrong, but in this case I am not in the wrong. The only person in denial is you because you love the Nazis and support Nazism. The Nazis persecuted socialists and the economy of the Third Reich was not socialist.

Again, your gaslighting is not going to work. I know your game.
E.g.I just gave you an example where Hitler's SOCIALIST rhetoric and reality coincided.

Here it is again

Image
I’m well aware of the people’s community concept. Guess what? It was not socialist.

Learn the difference between social programmes and socialism.

Educate yourself.

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by The Marxist Corey » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:54 am

been-there wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:36 am
E.g.I just gave you an example where Hitler's SOCIALIST rhetoric and reality coincided.

Here it is again

Image
Propaganda.

Who was “Heinz A. Heinz”?

He also wrote another book titled Hitler’s Germany.

Do you not understand the difference between propaganda and reality?

You’ve not addressed any of the following points:

The economy of the Third Reich was not socialist.

The Nazis persecuted socialists and other left-wing political opponents.

The Nazis banned other political parties.

The best you can do is quote Hitler and other Nazis on their definitions of socialism and think that means that the Nazis were socialists.

I’ve noticed that you haven’t proven how capitalism and socialism can work together. Good luck with that! Perhaps you should take your own advice and admit that you were in the wrong to post that unfounded claim.

Get a reality check.

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by been-there » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:37 pm

Corey you want to protect your anonymity for some reason. Why? What have YOU to fear? :?

You think encouragement to THINK FOR YOURSELF and not just rely on authority figures is "gaslighting". I suggest that proves you are afraid to think for yourself.

You deceitfully refuse to admit that there are various forms of 'socialism' but then base your whole argument on some unspecified definition that YOU YOURSELF can not explain.

The volkswagen was NSDAP socialism in action.
As were the autobahns.
As was the Volksgemeinschaft (“people’s community”) and the Strength through Joy (Kraft durch Freude) KdF resort of Prora, on the Isle of Rügen. Hitler introduced other recreational activities under the KdF. By 1938, 10 million people (a third of the workforce) had enjoyed a state financed holiday.
Before Britain and France declared war 60,000 new houses were built.
Rent and price controls helped consumers.
Life improved enormously in Germany for the vast mjority of Germans after Hitler came to power with his Socialist political agenda. Did you read the report by ex British PM Lloyd George?

That you believe capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive demonstrates you have an American misunderstanding of these concepts.

But no explanation will suffice with someone who refuses to acknowledge different versions of socialism. Nor will answer whether or not they have had an American education and conditioning. :roll:
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by The Marxist Corey » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:37 pm
Corey you want to proect your anonymity for some reason. Why? What have YOU to fear? :?
Ad hominem.
You think encouragement to THINK FOR YOURSELF and not just rely on authority figures is "gaslighting". I suggest that proves you are afraid to think for yourself.
You think that because I understand the differences between capitalism and socialism and I know that that the Nazis were not socialists I must be “American”, “indoctrinated” and “conditioned”.

I looked at your other posts on other threads and you regularly try and make people doubt themselves. But, you fail every time.
You deceitfully refuse to admit that there are various forms of 'socialism' but then base your whole argument on some unspecified definition that YOU YOURSELF can not explain.
Strawman.
The volkswagen was NSDAP socialism in action.
As were the autobahns.
As was the Volksgemeinschaft (“people’s community”) and the Strength through Joy (Kraft durch Freude) KdF resort of Prora, on the Isle of Rügen. Hitler introduced other recreational activities under the KdF. By 1938, 10 million people (a third of the workforce) had enjoyed a state financed holiday.
Before Britain and France declared war 60,000 new houses were built.
Rent and price controls helped consumers.
Life improved enormously in Germany for the vast mjority of Germans after Hitler came to power with his Socialist political agenda. Did you read the report by ex British PM Lloyd George?
You’re confusing social programmes with socialism.

Lloyd George said nothing about the Third Reich being a socialist country.

The Nazis persecuted socialist. You keep ignoring that fact.
That you believe capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive demonstrates you have an American misunderstanding of these concepts.
On the contrary, it means that I understand the differences between the two political ideologies.

Socialism was invented as an idea to abolish capitalism. Socialists want to replace capitalism with socialism.

You have still not explained how the two political ideologies can both run a country at the same time.
But no explanation will suffice with someone who refuses to acknowledge whether they have had an American education and conditioning. :roll:
Ad hominem.

You’re the one who keeps claiming that capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive. Prove that claim and stop dodging my question.

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by been-there » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:48 pm

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
been-there wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:37 pm
Corey you want to proect your anonymity for some reason. Why? What have YOU to fear? :?
Ad hominem.
Hunh!? How can a simple question be that?
Hmmm? Looks like you have difficulty correctly understanding other simple concepts, also.

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
You think encouragement to THINK FOR YOURSELF and not just rely on authority figures is "gaslighting". I suggest that proves you are afraid to think for yourself.
You think that because I misunderstand the differences between capitalism and socialism and I know [incorrectly believe] that that the Nazis [National Socialists] were not socialists I must be “American”, “indoctrinated” and “conditioned”.
No. Another miscomprehension. I merely suspect that. As it would explain much. So I simply asked you, in the interests of meaningful dialogue.

Secondly, I believe we have ALL been "conditioned" and "indoctrinated" into various beliefs, attitudes, opinions, preferences and lifestyles by our societies. ALL of us.

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
I looked at your other posts on other threads and you regularly try and make people doubt themselves.
Please quote some examples. I believe I am just engaging in dialogue and debate. I expect anyone who engages to be capable of thinking for themselves.

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
You deceitfully refuse to admit that there are various forms of 'socialism' but then base your whole argument on some unspecified definition that YOU YOURSELF can not explain.
Strawman.
Hunh!!!?
What is YOUR understanding and definition of Socialism, in your own words.

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
The volkswagen was NSDAP socialism in action.
As were the autobahns.
As was the Volksgemeinschaft (“people’s community”) and the Strength through Joy (Kraft durch Freude) KdF resort of Prora, on the Isle of Rügen. Hitler introduced other recreational activities under the KdF. By 1938, 10 million people (a third of the workforce) had enjoyed a state financed holiday.
Before Britain and France declared war 60,000 new houses were built.
Rent and price controls helped consumers.
Life improved enormously in Germany for the vast mjority of Germans after Hitler came to power with his Socialist political agenda. Did you read the report by ex British PM Lloyd George?
You’re confusing social programmes with socialism.
Seriously??! :o
So...
You refute the irrefutable proof of quotes promoting socialist ideas of Hitler as simply rhetoric.
You refute the actual socialist policies put into place by Hitler as merely social programmes!!?? :o :?
What will suffice?
What will convince you?

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
The Nazis persecuted socialist. You keep ignoring that fact.
That is a logical non sequitur. It is similar to arguing that Stalin wasn't a communist because he "persecuted communists" like Trotsky, etc. It's a literally STUPID argument.
Which is why I have till now avoided it, as I considered it too stupid to warrant a reply.

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
That you believe capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive demonstrates you have an American misunderstanding of these concepts.
On the contrary, it means that I understand the differences between the two political ideologies.
:roll: Ok, please prove that by explaining them IN YOUR OWN WORDS!

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
Socialism was invented as an idea to abolish capitalism. Socialists want to replace capitalism with socialism.
Oh boy! :roll: WHAT exactly is that Socialism that you say was invented for this?

As I keep explaining to you, what you wrote there is a typically 'American' misconception. Most Americans have never experienced life in Socialist capitalist democracies. Therefore they refuse to believe they exist. It's called 'DENIAL'. I've already explained this to you.
I again suggest that you are conflating the different forms of applied Socialism with some extreme form of Marxist-communism. Which is a common 'American' misconception.

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
You have still not explained how the two political ideologies can both run a country at the same time.
Yes I have. You just couldn't understand this simple sentence:
“there are many versions of socialism. The obvious corollary of that therefore is that there is no single definition that encapsulates all of these variations”.

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:46 pm
You’re the one who keeps claiming that capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive. Prove that claim and stop dodging my question.
Ok, Here.
Are you seriously arguing that the Labour Socialist movement wanted to "abolish capitalism"???
Image

Here is another one.
The current Prime Minister of Sweden is Stefan Löfven. He has been Prime Minister of Sweden since 2014.
He is the leader of the Sveriges Socialdemokratiska Arbetareparti (SAP). That translates literally as the Sweden's Social Democratic Workers' Party.

They are a S O C I A L I S T political party.

They DO NOT want to "abolish capitalism".

After six years in power they HAVE NOT attempted to "abolish capitalism".
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by Huntinger » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:19 pm

The Marxist Corey wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:37 am
Awwww,
On a side note BT, sorry to interupt, but just to re confirm who you are dealing with in reality as you know and so does everyone else here is some confirmation.
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:27 pm
Awwww, how kind of Hitler. :roll:

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:58 am
Awwww, are you losing the argument so you have to resort to personal insults? Pathetic.

Duke Umeroffen wrote: Has he not turned up yet?
Awwww,
We are all strangers on somebody's shore.

𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑
𝕲𝖊𝕾𝖙𝖆𝕻𝖔

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Re: Definition of National Socialism - How nationalist was it? How socialist was it?

Post by The Marxist Corey » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:30 pm

You have posted examples of SOCIAL policies, not SOCIALIST policies. The economy of the Third Reich was not socialist. They often spoke about putting the community above the individual, etc, but it was all just rhetoric and for political gain. After the Nazis came to power, within a year they had turned Germany from a democratic country to a one-party state which was a dictatorship, undemocratic, authoritarian, etc.

You haven’t shown any examples of socialist policies.

Your evidence that the Nazis were socialist is non-existent. You used the 25-Point Program even though you can’t tell me which of the alleged socialist policies were actually put into practice. Then you spammed a post with quotes from Hitler, other Nazis and from a book by Heinz A. Heinz (more than likely a pen name) which was a propaganda book. You accused me of using “authority figures”, but at the same time you think the Nazis were socialists because Hitler and other Nazis claimed they were socialists.

You continue to ignore the three main points refuting your claim that the Nazis were socialists:

They persecuted socialists, communists and other political opponents.

They banned other political parties and turned Germany into a dictatorship.

The economy of the Third Reich was not based on any socialist model.

Do you not understand the difference between social and socialism?

You keep digging yourself a bigger hole. You have now decided to post about John McDonnell, a man who secretly admitted to being a Marxist and then retracted it. He has also said the following:
In 2019, McDonnell during an interview stated that Marx’s Kapital is “one of the important analyses of the modern capitalist system.”

McDonnell in his Who’s Who posted one of his lobbies as “fermenting [sic] the overthrow of capitalism”.
The two main political economic models are capitalism and socialism. They are the complete OPPOSITE of each other.

The whole point in socialism is the overthrow of capitalism. Are you unaware of that very basic fact?

capitalism
/ˈkapɪt(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
"an era of free-market capitalism"

socialism
/ˈsəʊʃəlɪz(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Only an absolute moron would think that those two canwork together.

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