Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

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blake121666
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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by blake121666 »

Intenso wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:04 am
Ok so those perfectly round holes would indicate the use of the regime gas containers in a "legitimate" fumigation contraption for clothes where the can was "automatically opened" by the machine and a can with ragged edges that looks like it was opened by hand with a swiss army knife would indicate the use on the roof of a homocidal gas chamber?

I read the link http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/7/1/Berg73-94.html and he does not discuss the fact that body lice dont have lungs and so his "missing air circulation" argument would apply to lice but what concentration of HCN would be needed to kill humans versus lice that ingest the poison thru their skin and not actively thru a lung? 1:100? So the thousands of human lungs would be the "missing air circulation" he is looking for in the homocidal chambers...
I don't see any "missing air circulation" argument on that link.

Berg is mistaken with his forced circulation argument. The reason for forced circulation is to push the HCN through things such as clothing and small cracks in the wall (and the lice body itself as you pointed out) with pressure.

Humans are much larger and do not need the gas to be pushed through small things to get to them. They inhale the gas around them and die after inhaling a lethal dose.

The lethality of HCN (in terms of "lethal dose" - weight of toxin divided by weight of animal) can't be very significantly different between different animals but the way in which that dose is received is easier for lunged animals - as you point out. Drawing in the gas through the lungs gives a lethal dose about 100 times more quickly as you say than absorption through the skin. One usually talks about the "lethal concentration" (in ppm in air) that results in a lethal dose over a certain amount of time.

The short of it is that the lice situation is different than the human situation. The gas needs to reach hidden lice and be pushed through their bodies whereas it is much easier for the gas to enter the breathing space of the human - who breathes in a lethal dose in a certain amount of time.

The amount of Zyklon used to fumigate a building against lice is about 8-10 g per cubic meter for about 16 hours - but there are considerations to be taken into account which would change each of these parameters accordingly.

Hoess and others testified that similar concentrations were used in the alleged gassings at Auschwitz - but over a much lower time period.

EDIT: You can read the German wartime zyklon building fumigation guidelines here. This was document NI-9912 at the postwar trials.

EDIT: We usually refer to the initial amount of zyklon used (the size can(s)) as the "dose" or dosage used as well - which is a different sense of the usage of that term I used above. So for instance, the "dosage" used in Krema II at Birkenau for a particular gassing was about 6 kg - 6 1 kg cans according to Hoess.

BTW, a 1 kg can of zyklon has 1 kg of hydrocyanic acid adsorbed in gypsum pellets in it. The weight of the whole can and its soaked pellets in it is greater than that of course. The weight is referring to the hydrocyanic acid content.

Hydrogen cyanide gas (HCN) evaporates out of the soaked pellets and diffuses in the air and throughout the room.


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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by Huntinger »

blake121666 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:59 pm
I don't see any "missing air circulation" argument on that link.
Berg is mistaken with his forced circulation argument. The reason for forced circulation is to push the HCN through things such as clothing and small cracks in the wall (and the lice body itself as you pointed out) with pressure.
That is not the idea of the Kreislauf system; a study of the graphs shows the distribution of the gases by diffusion alone which verifies "Ficks" law of diffusion empirically. At various points within the chamber it clearly shows that there is insufficient gas, while in other parts there is an excess; the concentrations are all over the place and inefficient. Kreislauf system uses warm air to circulate the gases more or less evenly within the confined space so that it diffuses through the clothing and available to kill any lice or whatever in a more efficient and predictable manner.

If at AB there was intention to gas people with Zb the use of a few of these machines blowing gas into the enclosed space via pipes, it would work supremely well. The cyanide gas is evenly distributed thoughout the chamber. The warm air instantly puts the liquid cyanide into the gaseous phase for human consumption.
The alternative pouring the pellets down a hole waiting for vaporization to occur and then diffusion is like holding an oily rag over a cars carburetor and expecting it to fire up on turning the key. Possible but improbable.


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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by Scott »

No, Berg had it right.

The point is not that people will die but how quickly and how practical this is. You have to do things long enough to thoroughly kill all the individuals every time.

With the Degesch style of equipment a complete fumigation cycle lasts maybe an hour─not so with Rube Goldberg, and especially according to the lie-witness testimony.

We also are not trying to square the circle of somehow making the Hoaxster (or Perpetrator) testimony work──not claiming that it is impossible, just noting that it is problematical, or like with diesel exhaust, "Absurd," to use Mr. Berg's phrasing.

Once released from the carrier material, HCN penetrates good on its own. It just takes longer to disperse and mix without some warm-air circulation, especially with hibernating or embedded insects or eggs. Warm-blooded animals will need less dosage and time, for sure, but even this varies by species and individuals.

If you download the entire short paper Zyklon Discoids by American Cyanamid (1938) there is more discussion about entomology and types of pests.

Insect pests like lice and bedbugs can go into resistant hibernation states for a year or longer, not to mention the nits or eggs, so this does challenge fumigation practice, and explains why HCN worked so well, and why these resistant and evolving pests are making a comeback today when more convenient pesticides have lost their effectiveness (or have been banned for environmental reasons).

Without a complicated process like an American execution installation, or a big overdose of product, the Degesch equipment (or even a simpler American Cyanamid version shown below) would work well and very fast:

Regardless of the target, there is uniform concentration everywhere and proper dosage of the poison is administered rapidly. The KreislaufprinzIp or circulation principle is not really rocket science. American Cyanamid does the same thing.

:)

Image

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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by blake121666 »

Huntinger wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:37 pm
blake121666 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:59 pm
I don't see any "missing air circulation" argument on that link.
Berg is mistaken with his forced circulation argument. The reason for forced circulation is to push the HCN through things such as clothing and small cracks in the wall (and the lice body itself as you pointed out) with pressure.
That is not the idea of the Kreislauf system; a study of the graphs shows the distribution of the gases by diffusion alone which verifies "Ficks" law of diffusion empirically. At various points within the chamber it clearly shows that there is insufficient gas, while in other parts there is an excess; the concentrations are all over the place and inefficient. Kreislauf system uses warm air to circulate the gases more or less evenly within the confined space so that it diffuses through the clothing and available to kill any lice or whatever in a more efficient and predictable manner.
Image

The graph is clearly labelled "penetration time in hours". It is showing the gas that has penetrated through the densely packed rack of clothes to the four corners and the middle of the rack. The room itself is only 4m long x 1.35m wide x 1.9m high = 10.26 m3. Surely you don't think it'd take hours to diffuse to parts of that room unhindered? The graph is concerned with the penetration through the clothing.
Huntinger wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:37 pm
If at AB there was intention to gas people with Zb the use of a few of these machines blowing gas into the enclosed space via pipes, it would work supremely well. The cyanide gas is evenly distributed thoughout the chamber. The warm air instantly puts the liquid cyanide into the gaseous phase for human consumption.
The alternative pouring the pellets down a hole waiting for vaporization to occur and then diffusion is like holding an oily rag over a cars carburetor and expecting it to fire up on turning the key. Possible but improbable.
Woulda coulda shoulda. The difference is insignificant. The room was warmed by body heat.

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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by Huntinger »

blake121666 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:51 pm
Surely you don't think it'd take hours to diffuse to parts of that room unhindered? The graph is concerned with the penetration through the clothing.
The rate of diffusion in a close space is exact with mathematical laws to show such.
Very simply it is Image
where:

Rate1 is the rate of effusion for the first gas. (volume or number of moles per unit time).
Rate2 is the rate of effusion for the second gas.
M1 is the molar mass of gas 1
M2 is the molar mass of gas 2.

16 year old kids learn this in basic chemistry. Considering the rate of vaporization combined with effects of diffusion it could take some time. This has been dealt with before. Diffusion of gases is also greater at higher temperatures as is the rate of vaporization.


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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by Turnagain »

The point being that the Germans had proven technology in production that could have been used to kill humans on an industrial scale. Why, then, did they resort to cockamamie ad hoc Rube Goldberg contraptions to supposedly kill the Jews? The answer is obvious; they didn't.

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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:08 pm
The point being that the Germans had proven technology in production that could have been used to kill humans on an industrial scale. Why, then, did they resort to cockamamie ad hoc Rube Goldberg contraptions to supposedly kill the Jews? The answer is obvious; they didn't.
This is correct; the reason why the lie witnesses did not mention the circulation system is because they did not know it existed though they knew that Zb was used to disinfect the clothes and thought aha, lets scheme and make some shekels and get back at the Hun.
The so called Kula columns if they existed should still be under the Rubble at the Leichenkellers but they are strangely absent. Dynamite will bend these and blow down the roof, so where are they?
The circulatory system was also used to disinfest trains, this is a photo of a smaller unit for a single carriage.
Image


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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by blake121666 »

Huntinger wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:06 pm
blake121666 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:51 pm
Surely you don't think it'd take hours to diffuse to parts of that room unhindered? The graph is concerned with the penetration through the clothing.
The rate of diffusion in a close space is exact with mathematical laws to show such.
Very simply it is Image
where:

Rate1 is the rate of effusion for the first gas. (volume or number of moles per unit time).
Rate2 is the rate of effusion for the second gas.
M1 is the molar mass of gas 1
M2 is the molar mass of gas 2.

16 year old kids learn this in basic chemistry. Considering the rate of vaporization combined with effects of diffusion it could take some time. This has been dealt with before. Diffusion of gases is also greater at higher temperatures as is the rate of vaporization.
And you think the right side graph is showing that? Are you drunk?

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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by blake121666 »

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:08 pm
The point being that the Germans had proven technology in production that could have been used to kill humans on an industrial scale. Why, then, did they resort to cockamamie ad hoc Rube Goldberg contraptions to supposedly kill the Jews? The answer is obvious; they didn't.
Do you think lowering a basket with thinly arranged zyklon on its outer faces down a column is a "Rube Goldberg contraption"?

Where is this Rube Goldberg contraption you speak of in what is alleged?

I think you're misusing the term "Rube Goldberg contraption"! :lol:

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Re: Strange round Can-Opener Holes in Zyclon-B Cannisters...

Post by Huntinger »

blake121666 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:24 pm
And you think the right side graph is showing that? Are you drunk?
I mentioned that is a mathematically empirically verified fact; I was discussion the rate of diffusion not the rate of penetration into clothing which has many variables associated with it. That aside the graph you presented clearly shows that the maximum rate of penetration of cyanide is extremely fast, within minutes using the Kreislauf. In the second graph with normal diffusion the clothes presumably closest to the first two cans had maximum penetration between half an hour and an hour. Taking into consideration the mean of all four cans the Kreislauf system had maximum effect within 30 mins while the non circulation system took 4 hours.

If this was people then the non Kreislauf system would indeed be a slow lingering death which both you and Nessie would love to see in all probability.


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