Kleon XYZ Contagion wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 09:40
In real life, there are real people with real flaws. Real History cases with real difficulties for a historian to find out 'what happened there at that time?'.
There are also -if you want to talk about this irrelevant issue, but let it be- real judges and real jury who deal with real evidence and perhaps they make verdicts with real flaws.
Das Nürnberger Militärgericht
could hardly be compared to modern courts or even proper legal institutions that existed back in those time, anywhere, except perhaps the Soviet Union.
What happened with the gassing events at Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen?!
put it in "The Phora
In the original holocaust literature, Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen were referred to as death camps. All of these camps were said to have has gas chambers that killed thousands of people. Pictures have been spread all over the world with piles of bodies of people supposedly gassed in the camps.
Many decades later, however, we're told that the bodies in these piles died from starvation and disease
. We're told today that neither Dachau nor Buchenwald nor Bergen-Belsen had operable gas chambers. Sure, some still claim today that Dachau did gas a few people to death, but even they state that is was no more than a few hundred for experimental purposes.
SPOKESMEN FOR THE HOLOCAUST LOBBY like to assure us that there are "tonnes" of captured German documents which prove the Jewish genocide
. They constantly use such phrases as "an overwhelming abundance of evidence"
. When challenged on this, however, they can produce only a handful of documents
, the authenticity or interpretation of which is always highly questionable
. If pressed for reliable documentation, the Lobby will then reverse itself and claim that the Germans destroyed all the relevant documents to hide their evil deeds, or it will make the absurd claim that the Germans used a simplistic code language or whispered verbal orders for mass murders into each others' ears. One such Lobbyist Prof Raul Hilberg
speaking on 22 February 22, 1983 at New York's Lincoln Center Avery Fisher Hall at a meeting organized by the Holocaust Survivors Foundation:
WHAT began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus - mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.
Sadly many people believe this a priori
esoteric nonsense; a statement without any scientific or empirical foundation in reality.
AS DOCUMENTARY "PROOFS" for the mass murder of the European Juden fall by the wayside, Holocaust historians depend increasingly on "eyewitness" testimonies
to support their theories. Many of these testimonies are ludicrously unreliable. History is filled with stories of masses of people claiming to be eyewitnesses to everything from witchcraft to flying saucers. The Holocaust Historians are constantly looking for confirming evidence and there are no shortage of story tellers to oblige, especially when there is compensation of some sort.
Today, virtually all recognized scholars dismiss much eyewitness testimony as false, and agree that there were no extermination gas chambers in any camp in Germany proper. However, at the time this eyewitness testimony was believed by perhaps the people living in the 1950 and even some today. In my travels around South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, India many still believe the soap and the shrunken head stories. Even now on this forum and at Klowns we have Nessie trying to defend this garbage.
Lets us record the eye witness testimony as many believed.
An "authoritative" work published shortly after the end of the war, A History of World War II, informed readers: "In Belsen, [Commandant] Kramer kept an orchestra to play him Viennese music while he watched children torn from their mothers to be burned alive. Gas chambers disposed of thousands of persons daily."
In Jews, God and History, Jewish historian Max Dimont wrote of gassing at Bergen-Belsen.A semi-official work published in Poland in 1981 claimed that women and babies were "put to death in gas chambers" at Belsen.
In 1945 the Associated Press news agency reported:
In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 Jews, representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp.
Five decades after the camp's liberation, British army Captain Robert Daniell recalled seeing "the gas chambers" there.
Years after the war, Robert Spitz, Hungarian Jude, remembered taking a shower at Belsen in February 1945: "... It was delightful. What I didn't know then was that there were other showers in the same building where gas came out instead of water."
Another former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to the [Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The newspaper account went on to relate: "Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he was able to survive." In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer mused: "Maybe children resist better, I don't know." (Although Peer claimed that "Bergen-Belsen was worse than Auschwitz," he acknowledged that he and his younger brother and sister, who were deported to the camp in 1944, all somehow survived internment there.)
Such gas chamber tales are entirely fanciful. As early as 1960, historian Martin Broszat had publicly repudiated the Belsen gassing story. These days no reputable scholar supports it.
"In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 Jews, representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp." Associated Press story, 1945
Immediately after the war, in the Spring of 1945, the majority of Americans believed that there had been homicidal gas chambers in most of the Nazi concentration camps, certainly in Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen. After seeing the horrible newsreels of thousands of dead bodies in the camps, there was no doubt in most people's minds that the Nazis had carried out mass gassing in Germany, as well as in the death camps in what is now Poland. Today, few people believe that anyone was gassed at Bergen-Belsen, or at Dachau and Buchenwald. But the stories still persist.
Some Americans are surprised to find that there is no gas chamber shown to tourists in the former Buchenwald camp because in the first few years after the war, there were numerous claims that a gas chamber was part of the Buchenwald death factory.
At the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal in 1946, the French government submitted an official report which stated, "Everything had been provided for down to the smallest detail. In 1944, at Buchenwald, they had even lengthened a railway line so that the deportees might be led directly to the gas chamber
. Certain [of the gas chambers] had a floor that tipped and immediately directed the bodies into the room with the crematory oven.
Impressive evidence has likewise been presented over the years to "prove" that the Buchenwald camp was an "extermination" center. For example, an April 1945 US Army report about Buchenwald prepared for the Supreme Allied Headquarters in Europe declared that the "mission of the camp" was "an extermination factory.
"Proof" that inmates were gassed at Dachau has been provided over the years, most notably at the main Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946. Former inmate Dr. Franz Blaha
, for example, provided eyewitness testimony at Nuremberg about gas chamber killings there of "many prisoners."
According to a May 1945 US government document, which was accepted as evidence by the Nuremberg Tribunal as document L-159 (USA-222), "a distinguishing feature of the Dachau Camp was the gas chamber for the execution of prisoners." The official report went on to describe the alleged gassing operation in some detail. (For more about such "evidence," see: R. Faurisson, The Journal of Historical Review, Fall 1990, pp. 296-307.)
Originally posted by www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachauscrapbook
Many American soldiers and newspaper reporters, who were there during the liberation or shortly afterwards, wrote their eyewitness descriptions of the Dachau gas chamber, including the following:
"We were then shown a room which looked something similar to a reception room, and off it was another room with the marking 'Showers' on it. Actually it was a gas chamber used by the Germans to kill the prisoners.
" From Report on the Surrender of the Concentration Camp at Dachau by Lt. W. J. Cowling
, III written on May 2, 1945
"Several newspaper people arrived about that time and wanted to go through the camp so we took them through with a guide furnished by the prisoners. The first thing we came to were piles of clothing, shoes, pants, shirts, coats, etc. Then we went into a room with a table with flowers on it and some soap and towels. Another door with the word showers lead off of this and upon going through this room it appeared to be a shower room but instead of water, gas came out." From a letter to his parents, written by Lt. William J. Cowling, III after the liberation of Dachau.
"It really was a gas chamber, a low ceiling room about 30 feet square. After 15 or 20 persons were inside the doors were firmly sealed and the faucets were turned on and poison gas issued."
From article in Chicago Daily Times, April 30, 1945 by Howard Cowan
"Inside as well as outside were gas chambers with adjacent crematory ovens. Sid Olsen
of Time Magazine
, Walter Riddler
of the St. Paul Dispatch
and I followed a fresh trail of blood into the brick building with a huge smokestack. Almost 100 naked bodies were stacked neatly in the barren room with cement floors. They had come from a room on the left marked "brausebad" for "shower bath." From the story in the News York Times, April 30, 1945 by Associated Press
War Writer, Howard Cowan
"The gas chamber, about 20 feet by 20 feet, bears all the characteristics of an ordinary communal shower room with about fifty shower sprays in the roof, cement ceiling and cement floor. But there is not the usual ventilation, and the sprays squirted poison gas. One noticed that the doors, as well as the small window, were rubber-lined and that there was a conveniently situated glass-covered peephole to enable the controller to see when the gas could be turned off. From the lethal chamber a door leads to the crematorium. We inspected the elaborate controls and gas pipes leading into the chamber. Behind the crematorium there was an execution place for those who had to die by rifle fire; and there were ample signs that this place had been in frequent use."
From a Report on Dachau Concentration Camp
, signed by C.S. Coetzee and R. J. Montgomery
who visited the camp on or about 7 May 1945.
"GAS CHAMBERS: the internees who were brought to Camp Dachau for the sole purpose of being executed were in most cases Juden and Russians. They were brought into the compound, lined up near the gas chambers, and were screened in a similar manner as internees who came to Dachau for imprisonment. Then they were marched to a room and told to undress. Everyone was given a towel and a piece of soap, as though they were about to take a shower. During this whole screening process, no hint was ever given that they were to be executed, for the routine was similar upon the arrival of all internees at the camp. Then they entered the gas chamber. Over the entrance, in large black letters, was written "Brause Bad" (showers). There were about 15 shower faucets suspended from the ceiling from which gas was then released. There was one large chamber, capacity of which was 200, and five smaller gas chambers, capacity of each being 50. It took approximately 10 minutes for the execution. From the gas chamber, the door led to the Crematory to which the bodies were removed by internees who were selected for the job. The dead bodies were then placed in 5 furnaces, two or three bodies at a time."
From a report by OSS Section, US Seventh Army, entitled Dachau Concentration Camp, Foreword by Col. William W. Quinn
, 1945, p. 33.
"The new building had a gas chamber for executions... the gas chamber was labeled "shower room" over the entrance and was a large room with airtight doors and double glassed lights, sealed and gas proof. The ceiling was studded with dummy shower heads. A small observation peephole, double glassed and hermetically sealed was used to observe the conditions of the victims. There were grates in the floor. Hydrogen cyanide was mixed in the room below, and rose into the gas chamber and out the top vents."
Report of the Atrocities Committed at Dachau Concentration Camp, signed by Col. David Chavez
, Jr., JAGD, 7 May 1945
"A distinguishing feature of the Dachau Camp was the gas chamber for the execution of prisoners and the somewhat elaborate facilities for execution by shooting. The gas chamber was located in the center of a large room in the crematory building. It was built of concrete. Its dimensions were about 20 by 20 feet, and the ceiling was some 10 feet in height. In two opposite walls of the chamber were airtight doors through which condemned prisoners could be taken into the chamber for execution and removed after execution. The supply of gas into the chamber was controlled by means of two valves on one of the outer walls, and beneath the valves was a small glass-covered peephole through which the operator could watch the victims die. The gas was let into the chamber through pipes terminating in perforated brass fixtures set into the ceiling. The chamber was of size sufficient to execute probably a hundred men at one time."
From Document No. 47 of the 79th Congress, 1st Session, Senate Report (May 15, 1945) of the Committee Requested by Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower to the Congress of the U.S. relative to Atrocities and other Conditions in Concentration Camps in Germany. This document was entered into the Nuremberg trial proceedings as IMT Document L-159
"The grand tour must include the crematorium and the gas chamber, and our escorts lead us to the large concrete and brick building with the high smokestack. The smell here is stronger even than in the quarantined barracks. Outside is a small hill of bodies. In storerooms within, the corpses are piled high. Deaths have exceeded storage space. The technique used by the Nazis is explained. Prisoners scheduled for liquidation were marched to a point near the gas chamber and processed in the same way as those who were to serve prison terms. Then those to be executed were ordered into the building, told to undress, handed soap and towels, and directed into the Brause Bad (shower bath). That is what the black letters say on the sign that hangs over the door, and the prisoners believed it. The door through which they passed is made of smoothly fitting steel; when it is closed, the victims were sealed in. They stood beneath innocent-looking shower heads, evenly spaced on the ceiling; from them the invisible lethal gas (carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide) flowed for ten to twenty minutes. I notice a thick glass window in the rear of the chamber: I am told that through this window a supervisor witnessed the executions so that he could decontaminate when they were over. After the gas had dissipated, special inmates wearing protective clothing entered the chamber after opening another airtight door, then, using grappling hooks, dragged the bodies into storerooms. Other workers cleaned and hosed the chamber. Our guide calls attention to the floor, gently sloped for proper drainage."
Captain Marcus J. Smith
, medical doctor with US Army Displaced Persons Team 115, who arrived on April 30, 1945. Quoted from his book "The Harrowing of Hell," published in 1972.
"In one room adjoining the furnace room on the left they (the bodies) were neatly stacked. The stripped corpses were very straight. But in the room to the right they were piled in complete disorder, still clothed.
With the help of a husky Yugoslav inmate who worked at the furnaces and told that all four of them had been going "tag und nacht" ... "day and night" with a capacity of 7 bodies each, the explanation was partially unfolded. The straight neat ones had probably been brought in alive, showered in the "Brausebad" or shower-room, then gassed or hanged from hooks on the rafters in front of the furnaces. Those on the right were just as they were dumped out of the freight cars where they had died of starvation."
Quoted from a 42nd Division News Letter written by Tec 3 James W. Creasman
on 1 May 1945.