The logical flaws in denial.

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 29694
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:06 am
Nessie wrote:
On its own, without any other evidence, the lack of transport records does not mean anything. Together, with the evidence that there were no mass daily transports back out of the camp, that lack of records is now explained by the lack of transports.
IOW, it depends on whether the lack of evidence is either pro or anti holyhoax.
There are two possible reasons why there are no records of daily mass departures;

1 - there were no daily mass departures to record
2 - there were daily mass departures and all of the records were lost or destroyed.

There is evidence of 1, not 2. That tells us that 1 is the reason.
I have already shown you what evidence I can find online to prove it.
So, we're supposed to take the words of the partisan Zabecki and the drunk engineer as proof of the trains leaving Treblinka empty. That includes the trains that left Treblinka with deportees.

No answer for Norm then. Gee, I wonder why.
It is not just those two who speak to empty trains leaving. The witnesses who speak to being selected to work speak to only small numbers leaving, numbers that would not fill all of the trains. Then, no one who worked inside the camp speaks to mass transports back out of the camp. If TII was a transit camp, I would expect multiple witnesses from inside TII who spoke to people arriving, being processed and then put back onto the trains. They would have to leave the camp before the next lots arrived, since it is such a small camp.

All of the witnesses speak to no mass daily transports back out of TII, not just the Polish rail workers.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

SUPPORT RODOH!
Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH? Please kindly contact Scott Smith ([email protected]). Any and all contributions are welcome!


Turnagain
Posts: 8708
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
It is not just those two who speak to empty trains leaving. The witnesses who speak to being selected to work speak to only small numbers leaving, numbers that would not fill all of the trains.
Of course Nessie ignores the witnesses who claim to have left with entire trainloads of deportees. Well they COULDA' left from someplace else so that's proof that they DID leave from an alternate location.

Of course we have:
2 - there were daily mass departures and all of the records were lost or destroyed.
Nessie tries to pretend that there were no records of trains leaving Treblinka. What bullshit! Of course the Germans kept track of their rolling stock. The fact that they were either destroyed (or "lost") by the Soviets is circumstantial evidence that those records would have shown that the deportees were transported out of Treblinka. You still have nothing, Nessie.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 29694
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:53 am
Nessie wrote:
It is not just those two who speak to empty trains leaving. The witnesses who speak to being selected to work speak to only small numbers leaving, numbers that would not fill all of the trains.
Of course Nessie ignores the witnesses who claim to have left with entire trainloads of deportees. Well they COULDA' left from someplace else so that's proof that they DID leave from an alternate location.
ONE witness, a male, spoke to leaving with men, women and children. If there were daily mass departures, there would be many thousands of such witnesses.

You then ignore that there was a transit camp near to TII.
Of course we have:
2 - there were daily mass departures and all of the records were lost or destroyed.
Nessie tries to pretend that there were no records of trains leaving Treblinka. What bullshit!
It is indeed bullshit, your made up bullshit.
Of course the Germans kept track of their rolling stock.
Correct. There are examples such as the Warsaw Shuttle train record, showing train movements to and from TII. But that record is from Warsaw, not TII.
The fact that they were either destroyed (or "lost") by the Soviets is circumstantial evidence that those records would have shown that the deportees were transported out of Treblinka. You still have nothing, Nessie.
TII was closed by the end of 1943, long before the Soviets arrived. The Nazis destroyed the camp as best they could. No record, of any sort has been found that was actually from TII. The Nazis destroyed camp records, as part of the cover up.

Logic tells me that when witnesses claim no daily mass transports of people back out of the camp and no records have been found to contradict the witnesses, the witnesses are telling the truth.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Norm
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:59 pm
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by Norm »

Nesserto:
Logic tells me that when witnesses claim no daily mass transports of people back out of the camp and no records have been found to contradict the witnesses, the witnesses are telling the truth.
Norm wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:36 am
Image

I, _?_ (full legal - VERIFIALBE - name),

am so confident that the Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka II holocausts happened - as alleged in orthodox historiography,
and that the eyewitness testimony for said "holocausts within the holocaust" - constitutes credible evidence,
and that the investigations of said "holocaust" camps in search of empirical evidence - were valid,
that I am willing to bet Greg Gerdes _?_ (choose one):


1: $ .o6 US

2: $ .60 US

3: $ 6.00 US

4: $ 60.00 US

5: $ 600.00 US


that I can show him the evidence which proves _?_ (list all that apply):


1: With 100% certainty

2: Beyond a shadow of a doubt

3: With the utmost certainty

4: With the same standard of proof espoused by Michael Shermer and the so-called "Skeptics" Society

5: With the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts

6: With the same standard of proof applied in U.S. civil courts

7: With the same standard of proof applied in German Federal Republic courts

8: With the same standard of proof applied at Nuremberg


that at _?_ (choose one):

1: Belzec

2: Sobibor

3: Treblinka II


no less than (choose as many as apply):


_?_ people were dead on arrival at the camp.

_?_ people (internees) actually set foot (dead or alive) within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people were murdered within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people died by means of poison gas within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people died by means of a bullet wound received within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people were buried (as whole corpses) within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ corpses "in a wax-fat transformation" currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ people were cremated within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ pounds of human cremains were buried within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ pounds of human remains currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ human teeth currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ bullets currently lie within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ pits / ditches alleged by the eyewitnesses to have been dug and utilized as burning / cremation - pits / ditches have actually been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ of the above said verified eyewitnessed burning / cremation - pits / ditches within the boundary of the camp currently contain human remains.

_?_ pits / ditches alleged by the eyewitnesses to have been dug and utilized as mass graves have actually been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the camp.

_?_ of the above said verified eyewitnessed mass graves within the boundary of the camp currently contain human remains.

_?_ scientific reports detailing the forensic analysis of remains located within the boundary of the camp were completed.


Furthermore, because I want to do all I can to put an end to holocaust denial, I agree to challenge Greg Gerdes to accept this wager no later than _?_/_?_/_?_, and agree that if I refuse to answer a question or get caught lying during our debate - I lose the bet.

As well, I accept and acknowledge that the option of demanding that both sides prove to each other that they have the ways and means to make good on the amount that I chose to bet above is mine - which I _?_ (choose - or - do not choose) to invoke.

Remember:

What kind of self-deceiving coward calls a skeptic of their unsubstantiated allegations a

“denier” - yet is unwilling to bet that they can prove what they so vehemently allege is true?

(One cannot “deny” something that does not exist or that has never been proven to be true.)

http://www.nafcash.com/

Image
What are you waiting for Robessie?

What are you so afraid of?
In some circumstances it can be rationally assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be easily discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of evidence of its occurrence as proof of its non-occurrence.
Such is the case for the fraudulently alleged holocaust mass graves: No graves = No holocaust - simple as that.

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 8012
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh. Swabia
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:34 am

There are two possible reasons why there are no records of daily mass departures;

1 - there were no daily mass departures to record
2 - there were daily mass departures and all of the records were lost or destroyed.
Not at all people left via the back door to various locations in most instances via trucks, horse, donkey, carts. This is generally what happens when people get off trains. If one is to follow the transportations of many other people some stopped at many other places to do work. Treblinka was not a final destination as it was a spur line on the Warsaw to Bialystok line, the main camp being Malkinia, a transit camp; this is where the sorting took place; the trains stopped at other locations as well.

Die soziale Heimatpartei
𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

Amt IV

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 3409
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by blake121666 »

Huntinger wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:30 pm
Nessie wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:34 am

There are two possible reasons why there are no records of daily mass departures;

1 - there were no daily mass departures to record
2 - there were daily mass departures and all of the records were lost or destroyed.
Not at all people left via the back door to various locations in most instances via trucks, horse, donkey, carts. This is generally what happens when people get off trains. If one is to follow the transportations of many other people some stopped at many other places to do work. Treblinka was not a final destination as it was a spur line on the Warsaw to Bialystok line, the main camp being Malkinia, a transit camp; this is where the sorting took place; the trains stopped at other locations as well.
The Trebinka camps were a spur off the Ostrołęka-Siedlce line at Treblinka Station. The Ostrołęka-Siedlce line crosses the Warsaw-Bialystok line at Malkinia.

Image

So the route from Warsaw or Bialystock would be to Malkinia then to Treblinka Station then to the Treblinka quarry spur (off the Treblinka Station spur line of the Ostrołęka-Siedlce line) then to the T2 spur.

T2 was a spur off a spur. 20 cars at a time were shuttled backwards into T2 from Treblinka Station to the T2 spur.

Image

It doesn't show in the above map but T2 is spurred off the Treblinka spur.

Image

There is an additional spur off the left line above to T2 - which runs parallel to that line at T2 and reconnects to it. The above picture is facing NW with Treblinka Station just out of sight). The T2 spur is below the picture.

Image

See how the T2 spur off the Treblinka quarry spur can only fit 20 cars?
Last edited by blake121666 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 12 times in total.

Turnagain
Posts: 8708
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie is still whining, "Where did they gooooo!" Never mind that he has no explanation for the gas/vacuum chambers beyond the witnesses just made a little "mistake". Never mind that his explanation for how the graves were dug, the ex stockpiled and the bodies exhumed is his mystery machine. That in opposition to Arad, ARC, CS-C and other holyhoax historians and authorities. Nessie is the world's sole claimant to the mystery machine. Neither does Nessie have a rational explanation for how the magic Jew barbeque functioned. He converts twigs, brush/brushwood into quantities of seasoned firewood but can't explain where that firewood came from or how it got to Treblinka.

However, Nessie is real big on, "Where did they goooo!". He wrote:
ONE witness, a male, spoke to leaving with men, women and children. If there were daily mass departures, there would be many thousands of such witnesses.
Nessie forgets about the witness who testified that there was also a trainload of all women left the camp. Neither does he mention the witness who said that he was at Treblinka for only a few hours while the train was cleaned before reboarding and leaving. Nessie makes the assumption that he was the only Jew to leave on that train. He also declares that since those witnesses were the only ones interviewed they were the only ones who would have testified to leaving the camp. Other witnesses make no mention of how many other deportees left Treblinka with them.

Of the five deportees recorded by the USHMM that left Treblinka alive and in good health, Nessie doesn't mention them at all. He apparently makes the assumption that they all left Treblinka alone and unaccompanied by any other deportees. Oh well, good enough for holyhoax work.
The Nazis destroyed camp records, as part of the cover up.
Uh-huh, the Soviets found the order for some trains to return empty to Warsaw which incriminates the Germans but the Germans destroyed the records of trains leaving Treblinka which may have exonerated them. So it goes in Nessie's holyhoax la-la land.

PrudentRegret
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:11 pm
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by PrudentRegret »

Imagine if there were evidence of wood supplies in TII commensurate with the requirements for the alleged pyres. It would be touted as damning evidence. Yet the lack of such evidence apparently does not affect Nessie at all.

Massive amounts of wood would have been required for the operation of the mass pyres at TII as alleged. Even Roberto concedes that TII could not have possibly acquired this wood themselves, and aerial photography of the surrounding area proves that they didn't. Given that this wood is necessary for the physical possibility of the allegation, lack of evidence for such wood shipments should be an important issue to any reasonable person.

If those massive shipments of wood were not shipped to Treblinka, then it's impossible for the pyres to have operated as alleged. There is no evidence for those shipments of wood to TII, despite evidence of shipment of other goods to the camp.

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 3409
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by blake121666 »

PrudentRegret wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:02 pm
Imagine if there were evidence of wood supplies in TII commensurate with the requirements for the alleged pyres. It would be touted as damning evidence. Yet the lack of such evidence apparently does not affect Nessie at all.

Massive amounts of wood would have been required for the operation of the mass pyres at TII as alleged. Even Roberto concedes that TII could not have possibly acquired this wood themselves, and aerial photography of the surrounding area proves that they didn't. Given that this wood is necessary for the physical possibility of the allegation, lack of evidence for such wood shipments should be an important issue to any reasonable person.

If those massive shipments of wood were not shipped to Treblinka, then it's impossible for the pyres to have operated as alleged. There is no evidence for those shipments of wood to TII, despite evidence of shipment of other goods to the camp.
What "evidence of shipment of other goods to the camp"?

PrudentRegret
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:11 pm
Contact:

Re: The logical flaws in denial.

Post by PrudentRegret »

blake121666 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:12 pm
What "evidence of shipment of other goods to the camp"?
The "evidence for the shipment of other goods to the camp" refers to the claimed eyewitness account of Samuel Willenberg in Surviving Treblinka. From CODOH:
In his book Surviving Treblinka, witness Samuel Willenberg never mentions firewood in connection with the cremations in the “upper camp.” He speaks of a “woodcutter commando” working inside the camp, splitting tree trunks with axes, and also describes himself and another prisoner having a conversation behind “a large pile of cut logs,” but no deliveries of wood to the “upper camp” are mentioned.[34] Likewise, Willenberg does not report on any transports of wood fuel to Treblinka II from the outside, despite describing in detail transports of other material to the camp.[35] The only kind of fuel mentioned by Willenberg in connection with the cremations – which he did not witness firsthand – is crude oil.[36]

It is worth noting that Glazar and Willenberg contradict each other when describing how the rails used for the “grills” (cremation grates) were procured. When interviewed by Gitta Sereny, Glazar stated that prisoners, possibly including him, were sent “into the countryside to forage for disused rails.”[37] Willenberg on the other hand writes that the rails were delivered to the camp with a train.[38]

Yankiel Wiernik, in his 1944 pamphlet A Year in Treblinka describes constructing stock houses and fences from trees apparently felled in the vicinity of the camp, but never mentions any tree-felling activity in connection with the cremations, which he claims to have witnessed first-hand. Wood is not even mentioned as a fuel by Wiernik.[39]

No tree felling in order to procure wood fuel for cremations is mentioned in Sereny’s book Into that Darkness, which contains alleged transcripts of interviews with Treblinka commandant Franz Stangl as well as statements by the Jewish witnesses Richard Glazar, Berek Rojzman, and Samuel Rajzman.

I have managed to find no testimonial evidence contradicting Glazar’s statement that the firewood used for cremations at Treblinka II was taken from wooded areas in the vicinity of the camp.
CODOH Source, p. 107, 137 of Willenberg's account.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests