Holocaust Landscapes Project

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Roberto
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Roberto » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Blogbuster wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Clark wrote:Otherwise limit yourself to destroying the mentally ill one.
Which of them is the mentally ill one, Carmelo "Blogbuster" Lisciotto or Greg "Clark" Gerdes?

They both seem to be paranoid psychopaths.

The fact that alone that they come here not to discuss the topics of this forum but to "destroy" a fellow poster (who is not exactly concerned about their efforts) is a clear sign of their pathology.

Anyway, it's fun to see them getting at each other. :lol:
I'm not getting at anyone but you Roberto.
Yeah, I guess it has become obvious to all our readers that "Blogbuster" has a pathological obsession with my humble person that strongly points to his being a paranoid psychopath.
Blogbuster wrote:Stay on topic and stop trying to destroy Rodoh!
Actually that's what Carmelo "Blogbuster" Lisciotto and Greg "Clark" Gerdes set out to do, apparently until a moderator reined them in. Maybe my recommendations regarding these individuals had some effect.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Clark
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Clark » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:50 pm

RM
...apparently until a moderator reined them in. Maybe my recommendations regarding these individuals had some effect.
Wow, further proof of her mental illness and desire to derail threads rather than provide proof of her fraudulent claims and delusional beliefs.

RM:

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?

BB

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?
Last edited by Clark on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Blogbuster
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Blogbuster » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:52 pm

If Roberto would keep on topic the moderator wouldn't have to intervene
Blogbuster

Get the facts about the strange phenomenon of Holocaust hate blogging!
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=667

http://hateblogwatch.nazihunter.net/forum

Roberto
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Roberto » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:54 pm

Clark wrote:Well, the mentally ill one has gotten one thread disappeared and another locked and now she's working on this one here.

It's all she can do when she has no proof what-so-ever to offer to back up her fraudulent claims.
Projecting your mental problems and effeminacy onto an opponent again, Greg?

How many times do I have to tell you that no one is interested in your private life?
Clark wrote:But let's get back to the subject at hand - The fraudulent "grave" claims made by Colls.
Got any evidence of fraudulence on Mrs. Colls' part, or is that just your usual wishful thinking?
Clark wrote:Here is a map of the pits she claims she has located:

Image

Here is a description of these fraudulently alleged "graves."
Alleged “grave” #1 is claimed to be – the northernmost of the 5 pits in a row on the eastern edge of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #2 is claimed to be – the 2nd northernmost of the 5 pits in a row on the eastern edge of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #3 is claimed to be – the 3rd northernmost of the 5 pits in a row on the eastern edge of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #4 is claimed to be – the 4th northernmost of the 5 pits in a row on the eastern edge of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #5 is claimed to be – the southernmost of the 5 pits in a row on the eastern edge of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #6 is claimed to be – the single, small rectangular trench in the north central area of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #7 is claimed to be – the northernmost of the two small pits in the south central area of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #8 is claimed to be – the southernmost of the two small pits in the south central area of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #9 is claimed to be – the single, large pit in the area that is claimed to be the former reception area of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #10 is claimed to be – the northernmost of the two large pits in the south eastern area of the camp.

Alleged “grave” #11 is claimed to be – the southernmost of the two large pits in the south eastern area of the camp.
Again, why "fraudulently alleged"? Got any evidence of fraudulence?

And did Colls claim that these places were whole graves, as opposed to just parts of graves?

If so, can you please quote what she wrote in this respect?
Clark wrote:Can someone number these fraudulently alleged "graves" so we can all be on the same page when discusing them?

Thanks in advance.
Why don't you do the numbering yourself, Greg?

And again, I'd like to see some evidence of the claimed fraudulence. Just because something doesn't fit your bubble, that doesn't mean it's fraudulent.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Clark
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Clark » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:56 pm

RM / mentally ill one:

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” of Treblinka can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?

Roberto
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Roberto » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:06 pm

Clark wrote:RM
...apparently until a moderator reined them in. Maybe my recommendations regarding these individuals had some effect.
Wow, further proof of her mental illness and desire to derail threads rather than provide proof of her fraudulent claims and delusional beliefs.
Again, Greg, no one here is interested in your problems and your personal life. Stop lying, stop telling us about yourself, and stay on topic.
Clark wrote:RM:

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?
The graves aren't fraudulently alleged, bar evidence of fraud. Which you cannot provide.

I can make an estimate based on the areas (I don't think they are whole graves, as the graves at Treblinka were much bigger than these areas) and their presumably volume, and some reasonable assumptions about the human remains in these areas based on what information is available about them or about similar graves at other extermination camps. The result will probably be that any of these areas contains the remains of well over 19 bodies, and I submit that this would be accepted as proof for judicial purposes. If you don't accept my estimates as proof, you'll have to tell me what exactly you accept as proof and what reasonable standards of proof your requirements are based on.
Clark wrote:BB

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?
Your answer, BB?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Roberto » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:09 pm

Clark wrote:RM / mentally ill one:

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” of Treblinka can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?
How about cutting out the "mentally ill one"? I know you have this need to tell us about your problems by projecting them onto me, but I don't think anyone here cares about your problems.

So kindly rephrase the question without insults, will you?

And also without claims of fraudulence, unless you can provide evidence of fraudulence.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Clark
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Clark » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:04 pm

RM / mentally ill one:

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” of Treblinka can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?

Roberto
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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Roberto » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:48 am

RM wrote:I can make an estimate based on the areas (I don't think they are whole graves, as the graves at Treblinka were much bigger than these areas) and their presumably volume, and some reasonable assumptions about the human remains in these areas based on what information is available about them or about similar graves at other extermination camps. The result will probably be that any of these areas contains the remains of well over 19 bodies, and I submit that this would be accepted as proof for judicial purposes. If you don't accept my estimates as proof, you'll have to tell me what exactly you accept as proof and what reasonable standards of proof your requirements are based on.


In the blog Thomas Kues on recent archaeological finds at Treblinka, I did the following calculation:
According to my earlier calculations regarding the capacity of the graves, the burial of 721,555 corpses at Treblinka would at most have required a volume of 60,130 cubic meters and an area of 8,841 m² - less than one hectare, and roughly 21-22 % of the "Death Camp" sector’s entire area.

Now to Kues' pit volume calculations. Assuming that his eyeballing of the yellow areas signaling "presumable burial/cremation pits" is fairly accurate, these calculations leave much to be desired.

It having been established in Judge Łukaszkiewicz' postwar crime site investigation (see the above quote from Łukaszkiewicz' report of 13 November 1945) that the depth of a burial pit in the "death camp" sector of Treblinka was 7.5 meters, assuming the witness Rosenberg's depth estimate of 6 meters for volume calculations is not "generous" but overly conservative. If pits "3" to "10" identified by geophysical methods have a total area of 1,800 square meters, as Kues claims, their arithmetic volume must be assumed to be (1,800 x 7.5 =) 13,500 cubic meters. If this volume is corrected for sloping with the factor 0.68, pursuant to Alex Bay's calculations for a pit 50 meters long, 25 meters wide and 10 meters deep, the volume available for burial in these pits would be 9,180 cubic meters.

Assuming a density of 8 corpses per cubic meter is exceedingly conservative if one takes into account the factors considered in my aforementioned grave capacity calculations, namely the relatively small size and malnutrition of most deportees, the presence of many children among them and the fact that they were not all buried at the same time and body volume reduction due to decomposition must thus have influenced the volume available for burial to some extent.

If the density of corpses in these 9,180 cubic meters of pit volume was 21 corpses per cubic meter (as it was at Bełżec according to my calculations, if all corpses were buried in the 33 pits discovered there by Prof. Andrzej Kola), these 8 pits (or parts of pits) alone contained (21x9,180=) 192,780 dead bodies. At the density considered by Alex Bay (ca. 12 corpses per cubic meter), they would have contained (12x9,180=) 110,160 dead bodies.

The pits numbered "1" and "2" have a surface area of 600 to 700 square meters, according to Kues. Let's take the lower value, multiply it by 7.5 and apply the sloping correction factor of 0.68, and we have a volume of 3,060 cubic meters available for burying corpses, which would take in between (12x3,060=) 36,720 and (21x3,060=) 64,260 dead bodies.

It is thus realistic to assume that the burial pits (or parts of pits) so far identified by geophysical methods contained at least 146,880, but perhaps as many as 257,040 dead bodies before the bodies were exhumed for cremation.
We know from eyewitness evidence that the cremation remains were returned to the emptied graves. Yitzhak Arad (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, pages 173 and following) writes:
The camp command was confronted with the problem of disposing of the large piles of ash and bits of bone that remained after the process was completed. Attempts to mix the ash with dirt and dust proved unsuccessful as a means of concealing the ash. Ultimately it was decided to dump the ash and bits of bone into the ditches that had previously held the bodies and to cover them with a thick layer of sand and dirt. The ash was scattered in the pits in several layers, interspersed with layers of sand. The top 2 meters of the pit were filled with earth.
Equal distribution provided, each pit received an amount of ashes roughly corresponding to the number of bodies that had been interred in the pit prior to exhumation, plus presumably a part of the ashes of the people who were cremated without prior burial in the later stages of the camp operation. This would mean that the burial pits (or parts of pits) so far identified by geophysical methods contain the remains of at least 146,880 human beings. Distribution by pits would be the following, assuming that, respectively, pits "1" and "2" and pits "3" to "10" (numbering by Thomas Kues, see image below) are equally sized:

Image

Pit #_Volume m3_Bodies per m3 (minimum)_Bodies in grave (minimum)
1_1,530_12_18,360
2_1,530_12_18,360
3_1,148_12_13,770
4_1,148_12_13,770
5_1,148_12_13,770
6_1,148_12_13,770
7_1,148_12_13,770
8_1,148_12_13,770
9_1,148_12_13,770
10_1,148_12_13,770
Total_12,240_12_146,880

Thus it can be safely concluded that each of the 10 (by Thomas Kues' count) pits (or parts of pits) identified by Caroline Sturdy Colls contains the remains of at least 19 human beings.
Clark wrote:RM / mentally ill one:

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” of Treblinka can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?
Greg "Clark" Gerdes will be ignored until he addresses me in a civil and respectful manner. Addressing me by my name's initials will do.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Holocaust Landscapes Project

Post by Clark » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:17 pm

Look at the coward run from the simple question:

RM / mentally ill one:

How many of the 11 fraudulently alleged “graves” of Treblinka can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?

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