Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

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Werd
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Werd » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Let's look at the city of Rovno, and the laughable Soviet claim that over 100,000 corpses were discovered.

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HAHAHAHA! CO2 poisoning? Corpses several months old still maintaining the outer most layer of skin to show red skin from CO CO2 poisoning? Good one, Soviets!
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Good point atop page 376. The total number of victims are around the small 20,000 mark. Not the wild claim the Soviets made that is about five times that.
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Coming up. The Rostov claims are no better documented either!
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Wow. The Soviets found almost all the mass graves and examined them. Amazing. Yet they were coming up short with video, photo and actual forensic corpse reports at IMT. Just long diatribes CLAIMING they did so. They wrote document A that talked about document B, but never had to produce document B in order to verify document A.

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Nessie
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:19 pm

Werd wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:16 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:28 pm
All I want you or Mattogno to do is prove it is easy to find the graves in that forest.
Here we go...
Get a map and show me the forest. Tell me how big that forest was. Then, since is so easy, pin point where the graves are.
Let's look at some more wild Soviet claims with absolutely NO DOCUMENTATION behind them. :lol:
How do you know that? Have you checked all the various archives in eastern Europe? Has Mattogno?
.....
Subjected to autopsy. Okay. Then where are the photos and the autopsy reports themselves? Weren't those presented at IMT? Nope. Only statements and summaries CLAIMING the necessary scientific work was done. Remember, it was illegal to question any claims made by the Soviets at IMT as shown on page 368 here.
....
"AS FAR AS IS KNOWN, THESE BODIES WERE FICTITIOUS AND WERE NEVER SHOWN IN FILM OR PHOTOGRAPHS"

You see folks, this is what Nessie wants to bury in pages and pages of bullshit.
I don't use Soviet reports to show there were mass shootings by the EG.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Werd » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:01 pm

PART TWO. Chapter 1.2. More dubious numbers in the Soviet documents and an apparent lack of actual scientific documentation regarding photos and videos from medical lab reports on corpses.

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Werd
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Werd » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:01 pm

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Out of all those bodies, you could only get 66? What's wrong poor Soviets? Aren't you able to document the wild numbers you claim?

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"Oddly the report makes no mention of mass graves." Just numbers given and that's it. No verification necessary.

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Look at the top of 386. No graves dug up and verified. And the claimed number of innocent slaughtered is too big for the town's population. Oops!
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Wow! What a shame.

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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Werd » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:22 pm

PART TWO Chapter 1.3. page 387-391.


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So they attempted to cook the books with the "Germans did Katyn" lie. And it was the best documented grave site they had. Nothing else ever came close to the detail that the Katyn documentation had. Foreign journalists. Excavation. Video. Photo. It was all there. Yet absent for many other so called 'reports.' Not to mention of course the way they photographed one thing several times in different ways to fool the person seeing said photograph when later developed. Soviets were not strangers to propaganda, lies and exaggerations. This is fact. No amount of trolling will negate all this.

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Nessie
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 am

Werd wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:03 pm


"...the location has not been established with certainty..."
And Mattogno points out how this is an excuse (possibly a lie) from the court. You are avoiding it on purpose.
"The fact that the court did not succeed in identifying the site of the mass graves, notwithstanding the self-proclaimed witnesses, doesn't make much sense..."
Okay Mattogno, what's your reason?
because the only forested area northwest of Minsk extended south of Zaslval, a locality 25 km from the center of Minsk, on the road to Molodechno, but there were at least fifteen villages in the area of varying size.
The only forested area? As in ONE POSSIBLE AREA? Wow. That's narrowing it right down! So we have pinned it down to the one and only forested area where it could have been. Sounds like the alleged graves have been localized and would be easy to locate and excavate. When Nessie denies this basic logic - If A then B. A. Therefore B. - he is lying. But then again, that's what quote mining, context shifting trolls do.
How big is the forested area?

How about, within 100m, Mattogno or you locate the graves.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:14 am

Werd wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:22 pm
.......

So they attempted to cook the books with the "Germans did Katyn" lie. And it was the best documented grave site they had. Nothing else ever came close to the detail that the Katyn documentation had. Foreign journalists. Excavation. Video. Photo. It was all there. Yet absent for many other so called 'reports.' Not to mention of course the way they photographed one thing several times in different ways to fool the person seeing said photograph when later developed. Soviets were not strangers to propaganda, lies and exaggerations. This is fact. No amount of trolling will negate all this.
That the Soviets lied and exaggerated, there is no doubt or disagreement. That they did nothing like the thorough job the Nazis did at Katyn, there is no doubt. The evidence from the EG's murderous campaign in the east, primarily comes from the Nazis themselves and the local people of the occupied countries.

You are assuming that Mattogno has honestly produced all of the evidence that is available for each and every grave he references in his book. Did he check every archive? Did he interview local people? Did he visit each site? The answer is no. If you do not look hard, then you will of course not find much evidence.

Mattogno disputes the numbers killed. OK, if people are not killed, then they are obviously allowed to live somewhere, so there needs to be accommodation, food, clothing and since it was Nazi policy, work for them to do (Jews were never going to be allowed to free load off the German state). Why is Mattogno unable to find evidence of that happening? Instead of listing Jewish ghetto and camps dotted all over eastern Europe, he lists mass graves. Mattogno can only find evidence FOR the Holocaust, which he then tries to spin into denier propaganda against the Holocaust. Deniers, after all, can be trusted even less than the Soviets to be honest and truthful.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

rollo the ganger
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by rollo the ganger » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:48 am

Nessie wrote: You are assuming that Mattogno has honestly produced all of the evidence that is available for each and every grave he references in his book. Did he check every archive? Did he interview local people? Did he visit each site? The answer is no. If you do not look hard, then you will of course not find much evidence.
Here we go again. Nessie is arguing about what is NOT in the book rather than what is in it. And now he's whining that it should contain ALL the evidence that exists. Maybe Nessie is suggesting Mattogno's book should also contain the Arolsen Archives and everything contained in the archives in Russia.
Nessie wrote: Mattogno disputes the numbers killed. OK, if people are not killed, then they are obviously allowed to live somewhere, so there needs to be accommodation, food, clothing and since it was Nazi policy, work for them to do (Jews were never going to be allowed to free load off the German state). Why is Mattogno unable to find evidence of that happening? Instead of listing Jewish ghetto and camps dotted all over eastern Europe, he lists mass graves. Mattogno can only find evidence FOR the Holocaust, which he then tries to spin into denier propaganda against the Holocaust. Deniers, after all, can be trusted even less than the Soviets to be honest and truthful.
Nessie presents another one of his false assumptions. The Germans were only supplying the basics in accommodation, food, and clothing to those who were taken for service to the Reich and needed to be sustained to perform their tasks. The EG wouldn't be killing those people because they had a crucial task to perform for the war effort. Otherwise, the civilian population in the occupied portions of the Soviet Union and elsewhere were not provided accommodation, food, and clothing by the Germans. They had to fend for themselves. The Partisans certainly weren't being provided accommodation, food, and clothing by the Germans, at least not intentionally. If the EG raided a village suspected of harboring partisans and/or saboteurs and decided to kill some as a reprisal they weren't going to provide accommodation, food, and clothing for those they didn't kill. They wouldn't before and they wouldn't after. So what is Nessie actually talking about?

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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Werd » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:34 am

rollo the ganger wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:48 am

Here we go again. Nessie is arguing about what is NOT in the book rather than what is in it. And now he's whining that it should contain ALL the evidence that exists. Maybe Nessie is suggesting Mattogno's book should also contain the Arolsen Archives and everything contained in the archives in Russia.
All "where did they go" questions are being ignored as we already have topics for that. Nessie's repetition of fallacies and reversal of burden of proof (mattogno takes the blame for the court refusing to easily locate the bodies in that one case) is also being ignored as it has already been refuted. PART TWO chapter 1.8 is coming up. After that rollo, I'm sure we can say that points 2,3, and 4 will have been covered in your 5 point bullet point list in the OP. For 1 and 5 I think we should get into the origin of "1005" as Mattogno sees it, also from part two of the book. What say you?

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Nessie
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Re: Mattogno's book: The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:36 pm

rollo the ganger wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:48 am
Nessie wrote: You are assuming that Mattogno has honestly produced all of the evidence that is available for each and every grave he references in his book. Did he check every archive? Did he interview local people? Did he visit each site? The answer is no. If you do not look hard, then you will of course not find much evidence.
Here we go again. Nessie is arguing about what is NOT in the book rather than what is in it. And now he's whining that it should contain ALL the evidence that exists. Maybe Nessie is suggesting Mattogno's book should also contain the Arolsen Archives and everything contained in the archives in Russia.
No, I am commenting on his claim that it would be easy to find mass graves that the Soviets referred to. Yet he did nothing to find even one, or, if he was to evidence his claim, he would find that there are no mass graves.
Nessie wrote: Mattogno disputes the numbers killed. OK, if people are not killed, then they are obviously allowed to live somewhere, so there needs to be accommodation, food, clothing and since it was Nazi policy, work for them to do (Jews were never going to be allowed to free load off the German state). Why is Mattogno unable to find evidence of that happening? Instead of listing Jewish ghetto and camps dotted all over eastern Europe, he lists mass graves. Mattogno can only find evidence FOR the Holocaust, which he then tries to spin into denier propaganda against the Holocaust. Deniers, after all, can be trusted even less than the Soviets to be honest and truthful.
Nessie presents another one of his false assumptions. The Germans were only supplying the basics in accommodation, food, and clothing to those who were taken for service to the Reich and needed to be sustained to perform their tasks. The EG wouldn't be killing those people because they had a crucial task to perform for the war effort. Otherwise, the civilian population in the occupied portions of the Soviet Union and elsewhere were not provided accommodation, food, and clothing by the Germans. They had to fend for themselves. The Partisans certainly weren't being provided accommodation, food, and clothing by the Germans, at least not intentionally. If the EG raided a village suspected of harboring partisans and/or saboteurs and decided to kill some as a reprisal they weren't going to provide accommodation, food, and clothing for those they didn't kill. They wouldn't before and they wouldn't after. So what is Nessie actually talking about?
If the Jews were not being killed, they were being accommodated, fed and clothed, even just the basics before being put to work. Why has Mattogno not found one single place where that happened?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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