Draglines, excavators and graves at Treblinka?

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Nessie
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:27 pm

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:45 am
Nessie wrote:
The quarry was even larger than Rajchman's graves. How did the M&H dragline excavate the quarry, but it could not excavate the graves?
By working within the capabilities of the machine. Digging the mass graves was beyond the capabilities of the M&H model Mb dragline. The capabilities of a dragline are defined by the length of its boom when not loading into a conveyance.
One of the underground disturbances found by Staffs Uni was described as a ramp. If you accept that the dragline could lift from round the edges as shown in your video and it could get into the grave, as you accept they worked inside the quarry, how can they not be used at all at TII to dig the graves, exhume bodies?
The gravel quarry was...a quarry.
I have given the calculations for why the M&H model Mb could NOT have both dug and stockpiled the ex from a 10X25X50 meter pit. I have shown why your mystery machine would have had to been capable of building a stockpile about 45 feet high. Are you going to address either of those problems or are you going to continue to weasel dodge?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
Why are you still assuming only draglines were used at TII? There is no evidence that is all that was used. The Nazis could have used a different excavator more suited, or both a dragline and another type of excavator. You have been told that repeatedly.

Why do you weasel dodge that I have answered you question on numerous occasions? When are you going to address that there were different types of excavator available to the Nazis? When are you going to stop weasel dodging that the witnesses who were at TII did not say what type of excavator was used and we just do not exact make or model?????
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Mr. KnowItAll
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Mr. KnowItAll » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:45 pm

Turnagain, you need to provide with evidence which draglines and excavator were used, your assumptions are worthless.
"It was the first time I had seen Hitler close at hand. Face and head of inferior type, cross-breed; low receding forehead, ugly nose, broad cheekbones, little eyes, dark hair. Expression not of a man exercising authority in perfect self-command, but of raving excitement. At the end an expression of satisfied egotism."

- Max von Gruber's description of Hitler at the Beer Hall Putsch trial in 1923

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:02 pm

Mr. KnowItAll wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:45 pm
Turnagain, you need to provide with evidence which draglines and excavator were used, your assumptions are worthless.
This is a mere repeat of what Nessie suggested above. How many Jude do you think were killed at this place and why do you think that?
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Turnagain
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:33 pm

Nessie wrote:
One of the underground disturbances found by Staffs Uni was described as a ramp. If you accept that the dragline could lift from round the edges as shown in your video and it could get into the grave, as you accept they worked inside the quarry, how can they not be used at all at TII to dig the graves, exhume bodies?
I've shown you the mathematics of why the M&H model Mb could NOT have dug the mass graves and stockpiled the ex. If you can disprove the math or find errors in it then do so. Your mindless maundering about "what ifs" is pointless. At the T-1 quarry the draglines were excavating and stockpiling material for shipment, not just digging holes. The draglines would remove and stockpile ex in strips. They could then return and remove another layer of ex for shipment. That's how a quarry operates even to this day. Peel off the overburden and mine the desirable material for as deep as it exists or until your needs are satisfied.
Why are you still assuming only draglines were used at TII? There is no evidence that is all that was used. The Nazis could have used a different excavator more suited, or both a dragline and another type of excavator. You have been told that repeatedly.

Why do you weasel dodge that I have answered you question on numerous occasions? When are you going to address that there were different types of excavator available to the Nazis? When are you going to stop weasel dodging that the witnesses who were at TII did not say what type of excavator was used and we just do not exact make or model?????
There is only one witness that I know of who claims that other equipment was used at Treblinka. That was wagons and carts used to haul the cremains away from the camp to spread on the roads. Others claim that the cremains were simply thrown back into the graves. If you have a witness who claims that anything other than a "digger" or "machine" or whatever dug and stockpiled the graves then post a quote/link. I'm not interested in what you think the Germans COULDA' done. Just what witnesses said that they DID.

If the Germans had brought in a dragline large enough to build 45 feet tall stockpiles then just the three connected graves in Wiernik's model plus the area of the graves would have totaled ~2.7 acres or half the area of the alleged totenlager and that's not allowing for any pathway for carrying the bodies to the graves. That leaves two (2) isolated graves to go. If the M&H dug the graves, the resulting stockpile would have totaled ~2.8 km. in length.

If you innumerate fools can't cope with the very simple mathematics of calculating a stockpile from an excavation then don't whine at me about what maybe, coulda' or shoulda' been done. Your vague, "Well, the Germans had lots of excavators" is just mindless bullshit. Wiernik said that one excavator dug "the ditches". Y. Arad, ARC et al. claim that the M&H dug the graves. You claim that the M&H was used at T-2 but only to tidy up after the mystery machine was sent away.

If the Germans had dug graves with the M&H they would have dug more reasonably sized graves. Since 25 m^3 per meter was about the maximum stockpile it could build, that would define the dimensions of the graves. They would have had to increase the size of the totenlager considerably but that could have been easily done. Most likely scenario for the Germans to dig 10X25X50 meter graves at Treblinka would be them bringing in a small fleet of dump trucks and hauling the ex down to the quarry at T-1.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:39 am

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:33 pm
Nessie wrote:
One of the underground disturbances found by Staffs Uni was described as a ramp. If you accept that the dragline could lift from round the edges as shown in your video and it could get into the grave, as you accept they worked inside the quarry, how can they not be used at all at TII to dig the graves, exhume bodies?
I've shown you the mathematics of why the M&H model Mb could NOT have dug the mass graves and stockpiled the ex. If you can disprove the math or find errors in it then do so. Your mindless maundering about "what ifs" is pointless.
Your "what if" is your assumption the Nazis only had draglines available to them and your stupid argument that they did only have draglines, they could not have dug the graves with draglines, therefore no graves.
At the T-1 quarry the draglines were excavating and stockpiling material for shipment, not just digging holes. The draglines would remove and stockpile ex in strips. They could then return and remove another layer of ex for shipment. That's how a quarry operates even to this day. Peel off the overburden and mine the desirable material for as deep as it exists or until your needs are satisfied.
Why are you still assuming only draglines were used at TII? There is no evidence that is all that was used. The Nazis could have used a different excavator more suited, or both a dragline and another type of excavator. You have been told that repeatedly.

Why do you weasel dodge that I have answered you question on numerous occasions? When are you going to address that there were different types of excavator available to the Nazis? When are you going to stop weasel dodging that the witnesses who were at TII did not say what type of excavator was used and we just do not exact make or model?????
There is only one witness that I know of who claims that other equipment was used at Treblinka. That was wagons and carts used to haul the cremains away from the camp to spread on the roads. Others claim that the cremains were simply thrown back into the graves. If you have a witness who claims that anything other than a "digger" or "machine" or whatever dug and stockpiled the graves then post a quote/link. I'm not interested in what you think the Germans COULDA' done. Just what witnesses said that they DID.
The witnesses said either excavator or one referred to a bulldozer.

Your assumption is that that consistent of ONLY draglines!!!!
If the Germans had brought in a dragline large enough to build 45 feet tall stockpiles then just the three connected graves in Wiernik's model plus the area of the graves would have totaled ~2.7 acres or half the area of the alleged totenlager and that's not allowing for any pathway for carrying the bodies to the graves. That leaves two (2) isolated graves to go. If the M&H dug the graves, the resulting stockpile would have totaled ~2.8 km. in length.

If you innumerate fools can't cope with the very simple mathematics of calculating a stockpile from an excavation then don't whine at me about what maybe, coulda' or shoulda' been done. Your vague, "Well, the Germans had lots of excavators" is just mindless bullshit. Wiernik said that one excavator dug "the ditches". Y. Arad, ARC et al. claim that the M&H dug the graves. You claim that the M&H was used at T-2 but only to tidy up after the mystery machine was sent away.

If the Germans had dug graves with the M&H they would have dug more reasonably sized graves. Since 25 m^3 per meter was about the maximum stockpile it could build, that would define the dimensions of the graves. They would have had to increase the size of the totenlager considerably but that could have been easily done. Most likely scenario for the Germans to dig 10X25X50 meter graves at Treblinka would be them bringing in a small fleet of dump trucks and hauling the ex down to the quarry at T-1.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
I am not interested in your assumptions and speculations. Your argument that the Nazis only had draglines, draglines cannot dig pits the size Wiernik claimed, therefore Wiernik lied, therefore all the witnesses lied, therefore no mass graves, therefore no gassing is totally illogical.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:46 am

Nessie wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:39 am
Your argument that the Nazis only had draglines, draglines cannot dig pits the size Wiernik claimed, therefore Wiernik lied, therefore all the witnesses lied, therefore no mass graves, therefore no gassing is totally illogical.
They were not Nazis, they were soldiers, obviously very stupid ones. Wiernik on all probability did lie, they all did, no mass graves.
It is not illogical, this is the most likely scenario not the mythological one you have in your head Jude.
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by blake121666 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:05 am

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:12 pm
Blake121666 wrote:
Turnagain wrote:
One meter of grave will result in over 10 meters of stockpile.

No way!
In that case, please show me the error(s) of my calculations. I don't think that you realize the scope of the problem, Blake. Modern 10 wheel dump trucks are commonly referred to as 10 yard or close to 10 meter dump trucks. A 10 yard truck pulling a dump trailer is referred to as a truck and pup or a slam-bang for a different style of dump truck and trailer. At any rate, for a straight 3 axle dump truck, the total excavation for Wiernik's graves would be ~ 7,000 loads.
It just occurred to me that a cable excavator can dig as deep as the cables you have on it - regardless of the boom. This can be done by simply moving the excavator on to the "ex" that you piled up!

IOW, simply excavate an area - placing the "ex" in a pile somewhere - and once you have made as high a pile as you can - given the boom length - then move the excavator on to that pile you just made and continue excavating - dropping that clamshell farther down (from the higher position you moved to)! Viola, you can excavate to as deep as your cables can reach!

You'd have to make sure to stabilize the excavator on moving up on to the newly made piles, of course, but why couldn't that be done? Those excavators had continuous track treads and were heavy enough to compact the pile.

The only depth limit is the length of the cables.

Look at the depth of this pit:
That pit is much deeper than one would think given the size of the boom on that excavator. The cable lengths allow this to work.

So I have now given you 2 work-arounds for the troubles you imagine:

1. Use a dump truck or 2
2. Move the excavator to higher ground as the excavation proceeds. The boom would then reach higher (relative to the earlier height) - but the cables would need to reach much lower. So you'd essentially be creating step-ups for the excavator.

EDIT: Are you familiar with shaft cranes? This is a somewhat similar concept. When one builds a skyscraper, one uses the elevator shaft for a tower crane. As you build the elevator shaft upward you re-position the crane itself upward in that shaft. You essentially build the crane WITH the building itself! Same deal here. I'm saying you build the platform for the excavator as you excavate. As you excavate downward you re-position the crane upward to continue upward with the "ex".
Last edited by blake121666 on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Turnagain
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Re: Draglines, excavators and graves at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:02 am

Wiernik's pit was 25 meters or about 80 feet wide. The boom is only 35 feet long. Doesn't reach. To build a stockpile around the perimeter of the pit you would need a stockpile about 45 feet high. Back to the (nonexistent) dump trucks.

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Re: Draglines, excavators and graves at Treblinka?

Post by blake121666 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:40 am

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:02 am
Wiernik's pit was 25 meters or about 80 feet wide. The boom is only 35 feet long. Doesn't reach. To build a stockpile around the perimeter of the pit you would need a stockpile about 45 feet high. Back to the (nonexistent) dump trucks.
The boom only needs to dig half the pit. Then you put the excavator on the other side for the other half. That boom looks to be about 35-40 ft to me.

EDIT: Or alternatively one could step the whole thing as one goes along. That sounds ridiculously inefficient though to me. The boom in the picture on page 1 here looks to be about half the alleged width - which is about right.

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Re: Draglines, excavators and graves at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:53 am

Wiernik's model doesn't double bank the stockpiles. Doesn't work, Blake.

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