Draglines, excavators and graves at Treblinka?

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Turnagain
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Draglines, excavators and graves at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 pm

[This topic was split from How many Jews were killed at Treblinka? ~DC]


Since KnowItAll has brought up the mass graves and Nessie is always nattering about his unidentified excavator, let's take a closer look at those mass graves. Wiernik described them as being 10 meters deep, 25 meters wide and 50 meters long. Rajchman said that the graves were 12 meters deep, 30 meters wide and 50 meters long. Nobody mentions any trucks or other conveyances for hauling the excavated material away from the work site. Models of Treblinka by both Wiernik and Laponder show the graves with the excavated material stockpiled around the perimeter of the graves. That can't be argued.

Damp/wet sand has an angle of repose of 45 degrees. The gain (or "fluff") from excavating it is 12%. That's the amount of increase in the volume of damp/wet sand when it's loosened by excavation. Is everyone with me so far?

The volume of excavated material from one (1) meter of Wiernik's grave is therefore 1 X 10 X 25 plus the 12% gain. That is 280 cubic meters (m^3) of excavated material per meter of grave or 14,000 m^3 of ex for each grave. Since Wiernik's model shows a stockpile as wide and long as the grave, there is a minimum of 75 meters of stockpile. 14,000/75 = ~187 (186.667) m^3 of excavated material per meter of stockpile. Since the angle of repose is 45 degrees, the height of the stockpile can be determined by taking the square root of 187 (186.667) or 13.7 (13.662) meters. 13.662 meters is about 45 (44.824) feet high. The width of the base of the stockpile can be calculated by simply multiplying the height by 2 or ~27 (27.324) meters or ~90 (89.649) feet.

IOW, boys and girls, the models of Treblinka claiming to show the graves and the stockpiled ex are a bunch of horse frocky. Those numbers can be massaged to a limited degree but those are the base numbers with which you have to work. Run those numbers for Rajchman's graves and the stockpiles become even more absurd. To be accurate, Wiernik's model should have shown stockpiles almost four times as high as the gas chambers and wider than the graves themselves.

So, Nessie, what kind of a machine built those gargantuan stockpiles? Actually, no machine built those stockpiles. Those graves are nothing but figments of Wiernik's and Rajchman's imagination. They don't exist and never did.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:58 am

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 pm
Since KnowItAll has brought up the mass graves and Nessie is always nattering about his unidentified excavator, let's take a closer look at those mass graves. Wiernik described them as being 10 meters deep, 25 meters wide and 50 meters long. Rajchman said that the graves were 12 meters deep, 30 meters wide and 50 meters long. Nobody mentions any trucks or other conveyances for hauling the excavated material away from the work site. Models of Treblinka by both Wiernik and Laponder show the graves with the excavated material stockpiled around the perimeter of the graves. That can't be argued.

Damp/wet sand has an angle of repose of 45 degrees. The gain (or "fluff") from excavating it is 12%. That's the amount of increase in the volume of damp/wet sand when it's loosened by excavation. Is everyone with me so far?

The volume of excavated material from one (1) meter of Wiernik's grave is therefore 1 X 10 X 25 plus the 12% gain. That is 280 cubic meters (m^3) of excavated material per meter of grave or 14,000 m^3 of ex for each grave. Since Wiernik's model shows a stockpile as wide and long as the grave, there is a minimum of 75 meters of stockpile. 14,000/75 = ~187 (186.667) m^3 of excavated material per meter of stockpile. Since the angle of repose is 45 degrees, the height of the stockpile can be determined by taking the square root of 187 (186.667) or 13.7 (13.662) meters. 13.662 meters is about 45 (44.824) feet high. The width of the base of the stockpile can be calculated by simply multiplying the height by 2 or ~27 (27.324) meters or ~90 (89.649) feet.

IOW, boys and girls, the models of Treblinka claiming to show the graves and the stockpiled ex are a bunch of horse frocky. Those numbers can be massaged to a limited degree but those are the base numbers with which you have to work. Run those numbers for Rajchman's graves and the stockpiles become even more absurd. To be accurate, Wiernik's model should have shown stockpiles almost four times as high as the gas chambers and wider than the graves themselves.

So, Nessie, what kind of a machine built those gargantuan stockpiles? Actually, no machine built those stockpiles. Those graves are nothing but figments of Wiernik's and Rajchman's imagination. They don't exist and never did.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
I agree with your post, but the question was how many were killed at TII. I guess about 12 due to executions for stealing property and killing Jude; this were the guards that were executed. Probably no Jude were there to watch.
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Mr. KnowItAll
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Mr. KnowItAll » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:42 am

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:26 pm
Mr. KnowItAll wrote:
"interning the Jews" :lol: :lol: :lol: They didn't just intern Jews, they killed them, including children and women!
Which other state had a policy to exterminate a group of people during WW2?
KnowItAll stamps his feet and shrieks, "Evil Narzis, evil Narzis killed the Jews". Unfortunately, foot stamping and shrieking isn't proof of anything. Well, I suppose that it proves KnowItAll's ignorance and stupidity.
You never answered my question. A good sign that you know the answer: no other state did.
To elaborate on what Bernard said about you, it is quite obvious that you're trying to present yourself as someone who is a qualified *insert here*, when in fact you know bugger all.
Another fine display of abysmal stupidity by KnowItAll. He (and Bernard) really does believe that a brick brick building will serve as a pressure vessel. What can be said to such determined stupidity? "If it happened, it was possible", is an article of faith to these clowns.
The only thing supporting your opinions are your incredulity and ignorance. You have no sources to back up any of your claims.
How do you know what the foundations of the brick buildings, the gas chambers, etc, were? I thought according to you they never existed anyway? You're making no sense and you are also contradicting yourself.
This just keeps getting better and better. I haven't said that the buildings didn't exist. I've shown that they weren't gas/vacuum chambers. KnowItAll's level of ignorance and stupidity is astonishing.
You have denied the existence of graves, gas chambers, etc, all being at Treblinka.

You're lying so much that you're catching yourself out with your own lies.
Have you carried out your own investigation at Treblinka? How do you know that the mass graves do not exist?
It's not a theory that the M&H model Mb clamshell equipped dragline could NOT have both dug and stockpiled the ex from the 10X25X50 meter graves as described by Wiernik or the even larger graves described by Rajchman. That is a real world fact, little boy. Just as it's a fact that blood and human cadavers aren't flammable. That's generally accepted by all except you "If it happened, it was possible", clowns.

Get back to me when you have something more than stamping your feet and shrieking.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
You need to do the following:

- Name a witness who mentioned which excavator was used, which dragline was used, etc.

- You don't know if those size graves exist or not because there hasn't been a full study of the grounds of Treblinka.

- You clearly know nothing about how the cremation pits worked. Why was it not possible for the Germans to burn the bodies?

Get back to trying to get rid of your incredulity and becoming educated to get rid of your ignorance on the subject.
"It was the first time I had seen Hitler close at hand. Face and head of inferior type, cross-breed; low receding forehead, ugly nose, broad cheekbones, little eyes, dark hair. Expression not of a man exercising authority in perfect self-command, but of raving excitement. At the end an expression of satisfied egotism."

- Max von Gruber's description of Hitler at the Beer Hall Putsch trial in 1923

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:14 pm

Mr. KnowItAll wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:42 am
Turnagain wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:26 pm
Mr. KnowItAll wrote:
"interning the Jews" :lol: :lol: :lol: They didn't just intern Jews, they killed them, including children and women!
Which other state had a policy to exterminate a group of people during WW2?
KnowItAll stamps his feet and shrieks, "Evil Narzis, evil Narzis killed the Jews". Unfortunately, foot stamping and shrieking isn't proof of anything. Well, I suppose that it proves KnowItAll's ignorance and stupidity.
You never answered my question. A good sign that you know the answer: no other state did.
To elaborate on what Bernard said about you, it is quite obvious that you're trying to present yourself as someone who is a qualified *insert here*, when in fact you know bugger all.
Another fine display of abysmal stupidity by KnowItAll. He (and Bernard) really does believe that a brick brick building will serve as a pressure vessel. What can be said to such determined stupidity? "If it happened, it was possible", is an article of faith to these clowns.
The only thing supporting your opinions are your incredulity and ignorance. You have no sources to back up any of your claims.
How do you know what the foundations of the brick buildings, the gas chambers, etc, were? I thought according to you they never existed anyway? You're making no sense and you are also contradicting yourself.
This just keeps getting better and better. I haven't said that the buildings didn't exist. I've shown that they weren't gas/vacuum chambers. KnowItAll's level of ignorance and stupidity is astonishing.
You have denied the existence of graves, gas chambers, etc, all being at Treblinka.

You're lying so much that you're catching yourself out with your own lies.
Have you carried out your own investigation at Treblinka? How do you know that the mass graves do not exist?
It's not a theory that the M&H model Mb clamshell equipped dragline could NOT have both dug and stockpiled the ex from the 10X25X50 meter graves as described by Wiernik or the even larger graves described by Rajchman. That is a real world fact, little boy. Just as it's a fact that blood and human cadavers aren't flammable. That's generally accepted by all except you "If it happened, it was possible", clowns.

Get back to me when you have something more than stamping your feet and shrieking.

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
You need to do the following:

- Name a witness who mentioned which excavator was used, which dragline was used, etc.

- You don't know if those size graves exist or not because there hasn't been a full study of the grounds of Treblinka.

- You clearly know nothing about how the cremation pits worked. Why was it not possible for the Germans to burn the bodies?

Get back to trying to get rid of your incredulity and becoming educated to get rid of your ignorance on the subject.
This thread is how many Jude were killed at Treblinka, not the ramblings of this apparent deluded person.
π•²π–Šπ–π–Šπ–Žπ–’π–Š π•Ύπ–™π–†π–†π–™π–˜π–•π–”π–‘π–Žπ–Ÿπ–Šπ–Ž π–‹π–šΜˆπ–— π–‰π–Šπ–“ π•Ύπ–Žπ–ˆπ–π–Šπ–—π–π–Šπ–Žπ–™π–˜π–‰π–Žπ–Šπ–“π–˜π–™

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by blake121666 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:21 pm

I don't see why 10m x 25m x 50m pits could not have been dug, Turnagain.

Here is T2:

T2 satellite map

The large covered over area on the right is about 100m x 120m

Here is a picture of the excavator:

Image

That boom is about 5 times the height of the person on the left. If that person is about 6 ft, then the boom is about 10m high.

What are your assumptions to say that a 10m x 25m x 50m pit could not be excavated with this excavator?

The boom is about 10m high, so obviously you could figure out SOME way to dig a 10m deep pit (25m across for 50m). That's just basic common sense.

Since we're dealing with an area of about 100m x 120m there would be PLENTY of room for the "ex" as you call it.

Here is what Wiernik said:
Wiernik wrote:I looked at the ditches around me. The dimensions of each ditch were 50 by 25 by 10 meters.

... Some distance away there was an excavator, which dug out the ditches.
I don't understand why he appears to be claiming there were multiple ditches at a time. Wouldn't one dig and fill each ditch one at a time?

EDIT: And if one had a dump truck or 2, the "ex" could be hauled somewhere else as one excavated along. Wiernik doesn't mention the actual excavation of the ditches - only that the ditches were there. You have no reason to say that this excavator could not have excavated a ditch of any dimensions with a dump truck to haul away the "ex". Add in a couple dump trucks for the creation of these ditches and you have NOTHING to harp on about. But even without dump trucks, one could obviously figure out a way to excavate a 10m deep ditch with a boom that reaches over 10m vertical distance.

EDIT 2: Why don't you, Turnagain, gather up all eyewitness descriptions of the alleged ditches. Then we'll try to cohere those descriptions into what could possibly have been the case. Dump trucks BTFO your objections.

EDIT 3: And IIRC, the Soviet investigations claim that the things they found went about 7.5m deep. So we could assume that Wiernik is overestimating the depth of the ditches - based on that. Claiming that the Germans couldn't have dug ditches with an excavator isn't the greatest of arguments!

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:57 pm

OK, fair question, Blake. First off, the average height of European men of that age cohort was 5'8". That and the height of the M&H model Mb is 12 feet per mfg. specs. Using those as proportions we get a rough estimate of the boom length of from 32 to 39 feet, average 35.5 feet. The distance from the bottom of the bucket to the top of the draw works is 8-9 feet plus an allowance for not two-blocking the draw works. Applying some trigonometry to that results in a possible stockpile height of ~5 meters. Now look at this photo of the Mb working at T-1. http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp23.jpg The machine in the foreground is an M&H model Ma. The model Mb is working in the background and as can be seen in the photo, the stockpile is about 3-4 feet higher than the cab of the dragline. The cab is known to be 12 feet high so that gives a height of the stockpile of about 16 feet or 5 meters.

The angle of repose for damp/wet sand is 45 degrees which corresponds to the photo of the stockpile. Again, applying a little trigonometry, we get 25 cubic meters of ex for every meter of stockpile. The trig for the area of a 45 degree triangle is 1/2 the length of the base times the height. 5 X 5 X 1 = 25 or 25 m^3 of ex per meter of stockpile.

Wiernik's graves are 10X25X50 meters. The "gain" or "fluff" is the increase in volume from compacted material being excavated. For damp/wet sand that's 12%. Therefore the cubic volume of ex from each meter of grave is 10 X 25 X 1 + .12 or 280 m^3 of ex per meter of grave. Obviously the M&H Mb can't both dig the grave and stockpile the ex. One meter of grave will result in over 10 meters of stockpile.

As you say, adding some dump trucks would solve the problem. However, AFAIK, nobody ever mentioned dump trucks. One witness said that wagons and carts were used to haul the cremains away but nothing about hauling the ex. The models of Treblinka built by Wiernik and Laponder both show ex stockpiled around the perimeter of the graves. That is another impossibility.

Since Wiernik claims that there were five graves the total excavated material would equal 70,000 m^3. Since each meter of stockpile by the Mb contains 25 m^3 of ex, the stockpile, if built by the Mb, would be 2.8 km long. Another impossibility. As you say, though, dump trucks would solve that problem so believe me, I have looked for evidence of a fleet of trucks at Treblinka. The trucks could have hauled the ex to the quarry at T-1 but that much truck traffic between T-1 and T-2 would surely have been noticed. Fuel bills for such an operation would have been substantial and I know of no records for any such expenditures at either Treblinka camp.

At any rate, good luck at finding a fleet of trucks for T-2.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by blake121666 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:25 pm

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:57 pm
OK, fair question, Blake. First off, the average height of European men of that age cohort was 5'8". That and the height of the M&H model Mb is 12 feet per mfg. specs. Using those as proportions we get a rough estimate of the boom length of from 32 to 39 feet, average 35.5 feet. The distance from the bottom of the bucket to the top of the draw works is 8-9 feet plus an allowance for not two-blocking the draw works. Applying some trigonometry to that results in a possible stockpile height of ~5 meters. Now look at this photo of the Mb working at T-1. http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp23.jpg The machine in the foreground is an M&H model Ma. The model Mb is working in the background and as can be seen in the photo, the stockpile is about 3-4 feet higher than the cab of the dragline. The cab is known to be 12 feet high so that gives a height of the stockpile of about 16 feet or 5 meters.

The angle of repose for damp/wet sand is 45 degrees which corresponds to the photo of the stockpile. Again, applying a little trigonometry, we get 25 cubic meters of ex for every meter of stockpile. The trig for the area of a 45 degree triangle is 1/2 the length of the base times the height. 5 X 5 X 1 = 25 or 25 m^3 of ex per meter of stockpile.

Wiernik's graves are 10X25X50 meters. The "gain" or "fluff" is the increase in volume from compacted material being excavated. For damp/wet sand that's 12%. Therefore the cubic volume of ex from each meter of grave is 10 X 25 X 1 + .12 or 280 m^3 of ex per meter of grave. Obviously the M&H Mb can't both dig the grave and stockpile the ex. One meter of grave will result in over 10 meters of stockpile.

As you say, adding some dump trucks would solve the problem. However, AFAIK, nobody ever mentioned dump trucks. One witness said that wagons and carts were used to haul the cremains away but nothing about hauling the ex. The models of Treblinka built by Wiernik and Laponder both show ex stockpiled around the perimeter of the graves. That is another impossibility.

Since Wiernik claims that there were five graves the total excavated material would equal 70,000 m^3. Since each meter of stockpile by the Mb contains 25 m^3 of ex, the stockpile, if built by the Mb, would be 2.8 km long. Another impossibility. As you say, though, dump trucks would solve that problem so believe me, I have looked for evidence of a fleet of trucks at Treblinka. The trucks could have hauled the ex to the quarry at T-1 but that much truck traffic between T-1 and T-2 would surely have been noticed. Fuel bills for such an operation would have been substantial and I know of no records for any such expenditures at either Treblinka camp.

At any rate, good luck at finding a fleet of trucks for T-2.
The dump trucks needn't go far - just far enough to dump their load in any nearby out-of-the-way area. You could even get by with just one if you had time to spare - particularly if it were a very large truck.
Turnagain wrote:One meter of grave will result in over 10 meters of stockpile.
No way!

Even without any dump truck(s), one can both drive the excavator and move its boom. In beginning the excavation one could extend the boom horizontally to the length of it and work it up horizontally (at greater angles) as one digs further. But then again, the claim IS that the width was 25m, so one would have to drive the excavator some distance as well.

So you'd: dig, drive the excavator some distance, drop its boom and drop the "ex". Surely something like that could be done?

Obviously, a rational person would see the advantage of using a dump truck over this procedure; but nevertheless such a procedure could be done.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:38 pm

Blake121666 wrote:
EDIT 3: And IIRC, the Soviet investigations claim that the things they found went about 7.5m deep. So we could assume that Wiernik is overestimating the depth of the ditches - based on that. Claiming that the Germans couldn't have dug ditches with an excavator isn't the greatest of arguments!
OK, the graves were only 7.5 meters deep. That still results in 187.5 m^3 of ex for every meter of grave. Without the dump trucks, the M&H model Mb still couldn't have both dug and stockpiled even graves 7.5 meters deep. With the 25 meter wide graves, the M&H dragline could have both dug and stockpiled a grave a little over 1 meter deep.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:12 pm

Blake121666 wrote:
Turnagain wrote:
One meter of grave will result in over 10 meters of stockpile.

No way!
In that case, please show me the error(s) of my calculations. I don't think that you realize the scope of the problem, Blake. Modern 10 wheel dump trucks are commonly referred to as 10 yard or close to 10 meter dump trucks. A 10 yard truck pulling a dump trailer is referred to as a truck and pup or a slam-bang for a different style of dump truck and trailer. At any rate, for a straight 3 axle dump truck, the total excavation for Wiernik's graves would be ~ 7,000 loads.
Even without any dump truck(s), one can both drive the excavator and move its boom.
You obviously have zero real world experience with such equipment or you would realize just how asinine that sounds. Those old draglines were chain drive and they moved at a walking speed. The idea that the operator would scoop up a bucketful of ex, lock the house, engage the drive, walk (move) the dragline to the stockpile, dump the bucket of ex and return to the work site to repeat the process is beyond ludicrous for such a project as Wiernik's mass graves. Your suggestion for how the dragline dug and stockpiled the ex from Wiernik's graves is about as realistic as claiming that a little boy rode his tricycle to the moon.

Edit.
Here are some videos showing how a dragline operates. The first gives a good view of the chain drive and about how fast an even newer dragline moves. The Bucyrus Erie 22B is about the size of the M&H model Mb only newer. Horsepower is about the same with the DD 3-71 @ 113 hp and the Mb at 107hp.



Here's a video of an even newer M&H clamshell equipped dragline working in Munich. It's a model C-60 but it works the same as the old model Mb. It's working in about a 10 meter deep excavation so that should give you an idea about the size of one of Wiernik's graves.


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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:14 am

Turnagain wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:12 pm
.....

Here's a video of an even newer M&H clamshell equipped dragline working in Munich. It's a model C-60 but it works the same as the old model Mb. It's working in about a 10 meter deep excavation so that should give you an idea about the size of one of Wiernik's graves.

You post that and then claim it was impossible for the Nazis to have excavated mass graves at TII, when we know they had access to all sorts of excavation equipment, including draglines!!!!!

Look at the size of excavations going on at TII when it was being razed to the ground and closed down;

Image

Image

Image

You never did say what was happening at TII that required such a large excavation.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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