Sobibor

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Huntinger
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Sobibor

Post by Huntinger » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:09 pm

SOBIBOR
Narrative
According to wiki Sobibor was a Nazi German extermination camp built and operated by the SS during World War II near the railway station of SobibΓ³r near WΕ‚odawa within the semi-colonial territory of General Government in occupied Poland.

The camp was part of the secretive Operation Reinhard (AR), the deadliest phase of the Holocaust in Poland. Jews from Poland, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, and the Soviet Union (including Jewish-Soviet POWs), were transported to the camp by rail. Most were suffocated in gas chambers fed by the exhaust of a large petrol engine.

At least 200,000 people were murdered at Sobibor. Sobibor was about 40 acres in area
During the revolt of 14 October 1943, about 600 prisoners tried to escape. About half succeeded in crossing the fence, of whom around 50 eluded re-capture.

In September 2014, a team of archaeologists unearthed remains of the gas chambers under the asphalt road.
Image
Controversy
There are fanciful claims regarding the methods of execution at this so called Vernichtungslager or Todes lager. This was most likely due to its location another transit camp.

Intention
To discuss the real function of the camp and the morphing of claims made by the legendary eyewitnesses.
To discuss the hard evidence not just mere anecdotes.
π•°π–Žπ–“ 𝖁𝖔𝖑𝖐, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•½π–Šπ–Žπ–ˆπ–, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•±π–šΜˆπ–π–—π–Šπ–—

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Nessie
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Re: Sobibor

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:44 am

We can list the evidence pertaining to Sobibor, starting with documentary.

The camp is referenced in the Hofle Telegram as having had a total of 101370 arrivals by 31st Dec 1942 and interestingly in the 14 days covered only 515 arrivals;

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/educ ... -telegram/

There are specific lists of transports to Sobibor from Westerbork in the Netherlands

https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source ... ceId=30647

Here is a timeline of other documented transports to the camp;

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tr ... to-sobibor

As is usual with the AR camps, there are records of mass daily transports to the camp, but no records of any similar transports from Sobibor to any other camp or ghetto.

Various other documents here, including waybills, a decode about the revolt;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rdocs.html
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Sobibor

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:28 am

Maps and aerial photos of the camp;

http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/maps.html
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

rollo the ganger
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Re: Sobibor

Post by rollo the ganger » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:53 am

A question for Nessie:

Is there any contemporary Nazi document referring to any of their camps as a "Vernichtungslager" (Extermination Camp)?

If so, could you show us?

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Huntinger
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Re: Sobibor

Post by Huntinger » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:44 pm

rollo the ganger wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:53 am
A question for Nessie:

Is there any contemporary Nazi document referring to any of their camps as a "Vernichtungslager" (Extermination Camp)?

If so, could you show us?
Add to that "Todes Lager" which means "death camp"
π•°π–Žπ–“ 𝖁𝖔𝖑𝖐, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•½π–Šπ–Žπ–ˆπ–, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•±π–šΜˆπ–π–—π–Šπ–—

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Nessie
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Re: Sobibor

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:46 pm

rollo the ganger wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:53 am
A question for Nessie:

Is there any contemporary Nazi document referring to any of their camps as a "Vernichtungslager" (Extermination Camp)?

If so, could you show us?
Can you break a denier habit and do some research and contribute evidence yourself? As a starter for ten, I have linked to various documents.

I do not read/speak German, so whilst some sources do allow a word search, others do not and in any case, I would miss something that is not Vernichtungslager but may mean something similar.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Sobibor

Post by Huntinger » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:47 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:46 pm
rollo the ganger wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:53 am
A question for Nessie:

Is there any contemporary Nazi document referring to any of their camps as a "Vernichtungslager" (Extermination Camp)?

If so, could you show us?
Can you break a denier habit and do some research and contribute evidence yourself? As a starter for ten, I have linked to various documents.

I do not read/speak German, so whilst some sources do allow a word search, others do not and in any case, I would miss something that is not Vernichtungslager but may mean something similar.
Extermination camp and death camp mean the same thing. Let us know if you come across it please Jude.
π•°π–Žπ–“ 𝖁𝖔𝖑𝖐, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•½π–Šπ–Žπ–ˆπ–, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•±π–šΜˆπ–π–—π–Šπ–—

rollo the ganger
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Re: Sobibor

Post by rollo the ganger » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:51 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:46 pm
rollo the ganger wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:53 am
A question for Nessie:

Is there any contemporary Nazi document referring to any of their camps as a "Vernichtungslager" (Extermination Camp)?

If so, could you show us?
Can you break a denier habit and do some research and contribute evidence yourself? As a starter for ten, I have linked to various documents.

I do not read/speak German, so whilst some sources do allow a word search, others do not and in any case, I would miss something that is not Vernichtungslager but may mean something similar.
Then how can you say there was such a thing by that name?

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Nessie
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Re: Sobibor

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:53 pm

rollo the ganger wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:51 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:46 pm
rollo the ganger wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:53 am
A question for Nessie:

Is there any contemporary Nazi document referring to any of their camps as a "Vernichtungslager" (Extermination Camp)?

If so, could you show us?
Can you break a denier habit and do some research and contribute evidence yourself? As a starter for ten, I have linked to various documents.

I do not read/speak German, so whilst some sources do allow a word search, others do not and in any case, I would miss something that is not Vernichtungslager but may mean something similar.
Then how can you say there was such a thing by that name?
Evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 4425
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh. Swabia
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Re: Sobibor

Post by Huntinger » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:58 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:53 pm

Evidence.
The camps was broken into several sections; the camp was about twice the size of Treblinka II but section III apparently had the extermination facilities whatever they were. Much of the mystery seems to have occurred because this section of the camp was isolated to some extent by pine trees giving an air of mystery, like area 51 is today for some folk. Now one word comments like the above are not appreciated unless it is qualified.
π•°π–Žπ–“ 𝖁𝖔𝖑𝖐, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•½π–Šπ–Žπ–ˆπ–, π–Šπ–Žπ–“ π•±π–šΜˆπ–π–—π–Šπ–—

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