How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

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Mr. KnowItAll
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How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Mr. KnowItAll » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:23 pm

Turnagain has repeatedly claimed that there were no gas chambers at Treblinka and no mass graves have been found at Treblinka.

Of course both of those claims are false, but hey, a stranger from online is not going to be able to change the mind of someone who believes in his own lies.

This question is mainly asked to Turnagain, how many Jews did die at Treblinka and by what causes? I'm not bothered if other people respond to this thread, but I would like for Turnagain to state his positions on Treblinka.

The very fact that no denier can give any reliable evidence as to where the Jews who were sent in the thousands upon thousands to Treblinka ended up if they were not killed at Treblinka.

Turnagain, if you do have the guts to actually respond, I'm not interested in reading your repeated statements about demanding to be shown X and Y. I want you to summarise what happened at Treblinka and with evidence.

I find it remarkable how someone who appears to not be a qualified forensic, archaeologist, historian, or any other profession seems to think that his opinions on the matter triumph their findings.

P.S. Turnagain, are you ever going to try and seek permission to carry out your own investigations at Treblinka?
"It was the first time I had seen Hitler close at hand. Face and head of inferior type, cross-breed; low receding forehead, ugly nose, broad cheekbones, little eyes, dark hair. Expression not of a man exercising authority in perfect self-command, but of raving excitement. At the end an expression of satisfied egotism."

- Max von Gruber's description of Hitler at the Beer Hall Putsch trial in 1923

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Huntinger
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:32 pm

Mr. KnowItAll wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:23 pm
Of course both of those claims are false, but hey, a stranger from online is not going to be able to change the mind of someone who believes in his own lies.
The Jewish Daily Forward newspaper admitted in a 2014 article that the “absence of physical evidence allowed Holocaust deniers to maintain that Treblinka II was a transit, not death, camp.” Jewish Daily
In respect of this admission the rest of the questions are not applicable.
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Turnagain
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:43 pm

Mr. KnowItAll wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:23 pm
Turnagain has repeatedly claimed that there were no gas chambers at Treblinka and no mass graves have been found at Treblinka.

Of course both of those claims are false, but hey, a stranger from online is not going to be able to change the mind of someone who believes in his own lies.

This question is mainly asked to Turnagain, how many Jews did die at Treblinka and by what causes? I'm not bothered if other people respond to this thread, but I would like for Turnagain to state his positions on Treblinka.

The very fact that no denier can give any reliable evidence as to where the Jews who were sent in the thousands upon thousands to Treblinka ended up if they were not killed at Treblinka.

Turnagain, if you do have the guts to actually respond, I'm not interested in reading your repeated statements about demanding to be shown X and Y. I want you to summarise what happened at Treblinka and with evidence.

I find it remarkable how someone who appears to not be a qualified forensic, archaeologist, historian, or any other profession seems to think that his opinions on the matter triumph their findings.

P.S. Turnagain, are you ever going to try and seek permission to carry out your own investigations at Treblinka?
My, what an honor to be singled out by the king of clowns himself. The hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers at Treblinka as described by the eyewitnesses could NOT have functioned as claimed. Nessie has tried various lies about "vents", "circulating gas pipes" and other such drivel but the gas chambers as described by the eyewitnesses were nonfunctional. Can you comprehend that, KnowItAll? The gas/vacuum chambers AS DESCRIBED BY THE EYEWITNESSES wouldn't work.

Mass graves AS DESCRIBED BY THE EYEWITNESSES have never been located at Treblinka. Can you comprehend that? Wiernik described five (5) graves with the dimensions of 10X25X50 meters. Rajchman described seven (7) graves of 12X30X50 meters and four (4) "larger" graves with at least one grave of sufficient volume to contain 250,000 cadavers. Those are numbers taken from books written by Wiernik and Rajchman. Is there anything unclear about that to you, KnowItAll?

No excavations of those dimensions have ever been proven to exist by any means. Not by excavation, not by GPR, not by nada. Sturdy-Colls claimed to have found some smaller pits. It's alleged that there were bomb craters, excavations by locals looking for treasure and no doubt the camp had at least one garbage pit. However, NOBODY has ever claimed to have found even one (1) pit of the size described by the alleged eyewitnesses. Sturdy-Colls described the pits she claimed to have found as "possible graves" and vowed to return to Treblinka and determine the location of the mass graves. That was seven years ago and she's been a no-show ever since.

As far as how many people died at Treblinka, I don't know. Travel conditions were harsh and there's no doubt that people died en route to Treblinka or while they were there. Causes could be disease, typhus mainly, old age, accidents and even some executions. People were dying all over Europe from various causes so no reason for Treblinka to be exempt from deaths. That people died and bodies were found at Treblinka is no surprise. However, NOBODY has ever found any remains/cremains consistent with the death of ~850,000 victims. NOBODY has ever located the mass graves AS DESCRIBED BY THE ALLEGED EYEWITNESSES. Is there anything that you don't understand about that, KnowItAll? Are you unclear on the concepts?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:55 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:43 pm
, KnowItAll? Are you unclear on the concepts?
If they were not gassed then where did they all go.? I thought I would get in first as that will be the inevitable question I will ask it again.
Where did they all go if they were not gassed
and again
If they were not murdered there is evidence of transports in so what happened to them
OK I think that is enough. Now Nessie and doppleganger could you please go to this thread and read everything
What happened to the resettled Jude
or
Jude who made it out of Treblinka II

Oh and perhaps you may like to consider how all of the factories, farms and other workplaces were furnished with jude. They went through transit camps for delousing. Try and locate those for us please, they are likely to be alongside major railways lines in the Central government region of Poland.
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:57 am

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:43 pm
....

As far as how many people died at Treblinka, I don't know. Travel conditions were harsh and there's no doubt that people died en route to Treblinka or while they were there. Causes could be disease, typhus mainly, old age, accidents and even some executions. People were dying all over Europe from various causes so no reason for Treblinka to be exempt from deaths. That people died and bodies were found at Treblinka is no surprise. However, NOBODY has ever found any remains/cremains consistent with the death of ~850,000 victims. NOBODY has ever located the mass graves AS DESCRIBED BY THE ALLEGED EYEWITNESSES. Is there anything that you don't understand about that, KnowItAll? Are you unclear on the concepts?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
That is as much as to be expected. The question is avoided, no research undertaken and then various unevidenced claims are made which are an attempt to reverse the burden of proof.

A very simple way to establish the denier claim about TII would be to trace records from other camps and ghettos to show arrivals from TII. That would give a very good estimate of the number who lived on, which would allow a calculation of how many died at TII.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:59 am

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 pm
Since KnowItAll has brought up the mass graves and Nessie is always nattering about his unidentified excavator, let's take a closer look at those mass graves. ...
We do that in lots of other threads, in this thread lets us look at denier evidence for how many did died at TII.

Do you accept that denial has no evidence for how many died at the camp?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Huntinger » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:00 am

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:57 am
A very simple way to establish the denier claim about TII would be to trace records from other camps and ghettos to show arrivals from TII. That would give a very good estimate of the number who lived on, which would allow a calculation of how many died at TII.
As TII was a Transit-Arbeitsplatz the Hoeffle document would be good enough to say how many transited through the lager.
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Turnagain
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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:10 am

Nessie wrote:
Do you accept that denial has no evidence for how many died at the camp?
Do you accept that the mass graves as described by Wiernik and Rajchman don't exist at Treblinka? With no mass graves, that would severely limit the number of deaths possible at Treblinka. Without any mass graves, what do you consider an upper limit on the number of deaths?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Nessie » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:53 am

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:10 am
Nessie wrote:
Do you accept that denial has no evidence for how many died at the camp?
Do you accept that the mass graves as described by Wiernik and Rajchman don't exist at Treblinka?
I accept that they did exist in 1942 and they did not exist as mass graves containing corpses as of 1943 due to exhumations, cremations, reburial and a cover up.

The original mass graves are evidenced by more witnesses than just those two. The large scale ground disturbances left by the exhumation, cremation and cover up process are as seen in the 1944 aerial photo and as recorded by the Poles in 1945. That is where the original mass graves were described as located.

I would expect, when rectangular mass graves are dug up and the bodies exhumed and then mixed back into and reburied, that what would be left is a mess of disturbed ground with few traces of clear delineation between where a mass grave had been and ground that has never been disturbed.

That is what Lukaszkiewicz reported finding in 1945. The later Staffs Uni surveys were limited by the monument and trees that had covered much of the site.
With no mass graves, that would severely limit the number of deaths possible at Treblinka. Without any mass graves, what do you consider an upper limit on the number of deaths?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.
First, using GPR or other means, provide physical evidence of no large areas of disturbed ground.

Then, as it it is more on topic, provide witness, documentary or other evidence as to how many you say died at TII.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: How many Jews were killed at Treblinka?

Post by Turnagain » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:04 am

So, Nessie, you disagree with my calculations. Tell me, what part of them do you find erroneous? If Wiernik had actually seen any mass graves as he described, why didn't he show a more realistic depiction of them in his model? Your claim that the graves would no longer be delineated after the bodies were exhumed is bullshit. Where are the mass graves, Nessie?

No cremains, no graves, no holyhoax. Finito. End of story.

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