Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

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Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by DasPrussian » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:49 pm

Been There has listed 12 individuals who he refers to as 'eye witnesses/ lie witnesses' ( without specifically distinguishing between who falls into which category ) in his latest attempt at trying to disprove the existence and mass use of homicidal gas chambers by Nazi serial killers during the holocaust. In order to do this he has decided to rummage around in his 'big bag of bullshit bingo' and pull out the good ol' well worn and massively lame (and repeatedly debunked ) issue of 'diesel or gasoline ' so he can back up his equally lame and illogical arguments.

He lists 12 witnesses including their testimony ( for some ) in respect of the type of engine used in the gassing procedure . They all appear to be of the opinion that the engine was diesel (apart from Fuchs, but BT has classed him as a 'diesel' witness anyway based on other rationale ).

My first question to Been There is :

1) Which of these 12 witnesses does he believe to be liars ( or 'lie witnesses' as he referred to them in his opening sentence) ?

As Been There has not provided us with a conclusion in this section, unlike the others , it leaves us guessing as to the purpose of providing such a list. Considering that all of these 'eye/lie witnesses' he has listed are all of the opinion the engine was diesel, one can only guess that Been There is still keen for 'diesel' to be the official line from the 'holocaust industry' . If this is the official stance then it makes it easier for BT and his ilk to unleash attacks on the 'hoaxers' , since it has been long been established that diesel engines are not really that effective in the 'Jew gassing' department .

Second question for Been There :

2) What was the purpose for listing these witnesses who all mentioned the engine being diesel ?

Now, lets look at his eye/lie witnesses and what they actually said :

In summary, 2 of them ( Gley and Semigodov) say it was either diesel OR gasoline/other. 1 other (Gomerski) admits to being unsure because he has little knowledge of engines. Another (Dubois) admits to knowing only through hearsay, then we have the infamous Gerstein who has been dismissed by deniers for being insane. More importantly, these 5 mentioned and the remaining 7 others (apart from Fuchs) would have had no direct involvement with the engines ( eg a bookeeper and hygienist !! ) so this brings me to my third question for Been There :

3) What makes you assume that these 11 witnesses (not inc Fuchs) , would have the necessary knowledge and ability to be 100% certain of the type of engine that they either saw with their own eyes or just heard about from others ?

Basically, it appears that all BT is doing is creating a straw man argument. He is desperate for the witnesses to claim diesel for reasons I pointed out just above my question number 2 . Unfortunately for him, the witnesses he quotes are of a more 'inferior' level compared to the more 'expert' witnesses in regards to this issue, ie individuals who actually OPERATED the engines, being Fuchs, Bauer and Hodl who all claimed the gassing engine was gasoline . Note Hodl ( from Sobibor) even categorically denied that the diesel engine was used , even though one existed in the camp !! Here is a quote from his testimony that appears in the HC blog http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _9432.html

In the engine room there were indeed two engines. There was a petrol engine, probably from a Russian tank, and a diesel engine. The latter was never used, however.[
So, to conclude it appears BT's post regarding the 'diesel' witnesses appears to be pretty worthless really , unless he could demonstrate otherwise. The witnesses who claimed the engines were gasoline were more qualified than the other motley crew of 'don't knows' 'hearsay merchants' 'bookkeepers' and 'the insane' , so it should be these witnesses who help us determine the nature of the gassing engine used by the Nazi serial killers to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent Jewish civilians. end of story. What say you, BT ?
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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by been-there » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:17 pm

:lol: :lol:

Hilarious.
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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by DasPrussian » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:00 pm

been-there wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:17 pm
:lol: :lol:

Hilarious.
Typical lame and idiotic response from the forums very own king of the cranks. This is the usual outcome when you ask him a few simple questions , he dodges them like the plague, knowing full well he either hasn't the intellect to answer them, or he realises that any truthful answer will make him look even sillier than he already is, which is very silly indeed.
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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by DasPrussian » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:33 pm

In his next post, Been There attempts to discredit the witness Fuchs, who was responsible for operating the gassing engine and who claimed the engine was gasoline. He starts off by trumpeting the myth that petrol was a scarce commodity during 1942, so in the mind of BT this means that the Nazis would have used other cheaper forms of fuel to carry out the serial killings against the innocent Jewish civilians, therefore ruling out the use of petrol engines !!! Yes folks, its another 'woulda coulda shoulda' bonkers bonanza !

Anyway, unfortuately for BT, Hans from HC has produced this article, a part of which I quote below which demonstrates how deniers have overplayed this 'fuel shortgage' canard : https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... k-and.html
The Third Reich had access to a sizable amount of about 8 Million tons of liquid fuels by 1941. The level was maintained throughout 1942 and 1943 and only collapsed in 1944 with the bombing of hydrogenation plants and the loss of Rumanian oil.

According to experts in the field of supply of resources of the Third Reich, there had been no critical shortage of gasoline among the German forces at the time the gas vans were developed and dispatched to the Einsatzgruppen, i.e. from late 1941 to early 1942:

- there was "no shortage [of oil] affecting the war strategy until 1942" and "only since 1943 - with the military defeats on the Eastern front, the disturbed transport and strongly increasing needs of the Wehrmacht - the demands considerably exceeded the available amounts" (Petzina, Autarkpolitik im Dritten Reich, p.192).

- "the supply crisis failed to appear" in 1942, which "was mainly due to the Romanian deliveries...further, the heavily reduced contingents of gasoline and Diesel assigned to the economy played a role that there was no crisis". Although "in 1943 there was the increasing constraint to adjust the operative plans to the available fuel", there was "no serious total crises among the German fuel supply until Spring 1944" (Birkenfeld, Der synthetische Treibstoff 1933-1945, p. 155f.).

- "even in 1943 - the year of the highest consumption, but also the highest production - there was no dangerous shortage of fuel" and the Third Reich was "sufficiently supplied with fuel for the warfare until Spring 1944" (Eichholtz, Geschichte der deutschen Kriegswirtschaft 1939 - 1945, volume 2, part 2, p. 353 & 355).

The large fuel consumption of an army operating in a huge territory over some years was, of course, only possible by severe restrictions on the use of vehicles and liquid fuels in the non-military areas. This was in part compensated by the use of alternative fuels, such as liquefied petroleum gas and producer gas in commercial, industrial and civilian sectors. This conversion to alternative fuels was driven by political interventions, which also defined the exceptions.
Also, the extermination of the Jews was a top priority for the Nazi regime. This is obvious from the racist rants made from the hierarchy of their ranks. Here are a few examples taken from the HC blog :
28) Goebbels 16.11.41: "The Jews are receiving a penalty that is certainly hard, but more than deserved. World Jewry erred in adding up the forces available to it for this war, and now is gradually experiencing the destructon that it planned for us, and would have carried out without a second thought if it had possessed the ability. It is perishing according its own law: “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.”" [source and source].
30) Rosenberg 18.11.41: "In the east some six million Jew still live, and this question can only be solved in a biological eradication of the entire Jewry of Europe. The Jewish question is only solved for Germany when the last Jew has left German territory, and for Europe when not a single Jew lives on the European continent up to the Urals. ...for this reason it is necessary to expel them over the Urals or eradicate them in some other way" (source).
7) Hitler 30.1.42: "We are fully aware that this war can end either in the extermination of the Aryan people or in the disappearance of Jewry from Europe. I said as much before the German Reichstag on September 1, 1939. I wish to avoid making hasty prophesies, but this war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely, in the extermination of the European-Aryan people; instead, the result of this war will be the annihilation of Jewry. For the first time, the old, truly Jewish rule of “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,” will obtain" (Domarus).
50) Hitler, 22.2.42: "The Jew will be identified! The same battle which Pasteur and Koch had to fight must be led by us today. Innumerable sicknesses have their origin in one bacillus: the Jew! Japan would also have got it had it been remained open any longer to the Jew. We will get well when we eliminate the Jews" [source].
So as we can see the Nazis made it pretty clear how important it was to 'remove' the Jews, and just because petrol was not as plentiful as it was before the war , this had no bearing on their aims and plans in respect of carrying out genocide against millions of innocent Jews. They had no qualms about restricting the German population from using fuel, and issued warnings to them, but no way would any 'shortage' stop them carrying out their vile murders against an enemy who they believed were planning on destroying Germany. But as demonstrated by Hans, they had enough fuel anyway !!

So, Been There has again used a distortion of the truth in his silly 'woulda coulda shoulda' argument that was probably debunked 20 years ago anyway . He really should engage his brain before posting his bullshit on here.
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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by Huntinger » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:55 pm

There is no direct physical evidence concerning the type of engine used at Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec whether for power or gassing or both. The engines were disposed of and no verified gas van has ever been found. Therefore, knowledge is based on eyewitness evidence, anecdotes only.
What is certain is that all camps ended up in Soviet Jurisdiction who had plenty of time to conjure up any story they wished if they desired and to find the appropriate witnesses as they did at Katyn. One thing is certain if this was state murder, Ukrainian guards would not be involved who were technically not even SS let alone SD.
It is noticed DP is somewhat emotional and has attempted to change the topic or derail the thread from the gassing to the intention of the Reich leaders. On that note these jude were not innocent they put themselves as enemies of the state through their leaders and were rightfully interned. Do you think that mass murderers would waste petrol gassing jude when they would more likely throw it over them and set it on fire. This might have saved Sgt Floss a job. I find it amazing how when the ridiculousness of the hoaxers story is mentioned they suddenly change it from lobstering, to diesel to petrol. One should and must discount all eye witnesses and look for hard evidence, without that there is always speculation. This thread links directly to Friedrichs thread, if anyone can supply hard evidence a single Jude was gassed; if so then the details of the event could be discussed. If not one might as well count the number of angels dancing on a pin head.
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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:57 pm

Das Prussian wrote:
In his next post, Been There attempts to discredit the witness Fuchs, who was responsible for operating the gassing engine and who claimed the engine was gasoline.
Yep, Fuchs operated the engine that had it's exhaust turned into the hermetically sealed gas chamber. What could be more reasonable than that?

Das Prussian wrote:
So as we can see the Nazis made it pretty clear how important it was to 'remove' the Jews...
So, who gave the order to commence killing Jews at Treblinka? Someone had to give that order since no general order from the National Socialist's high command was given. Who gave the order to build a gas chamber? Who decided to borrow the dragline from T-1 and who ordered the commandant of T-1 to give up his equipment for use at T-2? Just curious about these "minor details".

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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by been-there » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:25 pm

Which was the make of soviet tank or tractor that had the type of engine Fuchs described installing and operating at Sobibor, DP?

When did the Third Reich ever capture a Soviet Submarine, and thus could use it's engine to gas people at Treblinka, as was ‘confessed’ by Adolf Eichmann?

How come a young child Tobias Rawet, his mother and his father all survived numerous camps if the intention was to kill all Jews in Nazi captivity DP? He was just 9 years old in 1946.

How do you explain Kitty Hart-Moxon and so many others surviving a so-called death camp and numerous 'death marches if the intention was to kill all Jews in Nazi captivity?

How come Irene Zisblatt, Eva Moses-Korr and other lie-witnesses survived death camps and Nazi captivity if the intention... etc., etc.

How come the child and teenager Anne and Margot Frank were not selected for work yet weren't immediately gassed at Auschwitz?

How come their father Otto Frank and thousands of other 'useless eaters' were being treated in camp hospitals when the camps were captured by the Aliied forces, if the Nazis had a 'final solution' policy of genocide for all Jews that couldn't work?

How come there is not only no conclusive empirical that the guardians of the mass-gassing mythology can present to support their allegations of genocide, but that much of the testimony from the lie-witnesses/eye-witnesses actually defies empirical reality in so many crucial particulars?

How come the conference at Wannsee that supposedly was the pre-planning meeting for the 'final solution' genocide of ALL Jews in Europe was held AFTER the mass-gassing supposedly had been already begun in Chelmno and Auschwitz?

How come the star-witness to the mass-gassing at Auschwitz presented at Nuremburg, gave testimony that is now admitted to have been physically impossible in SO MANY particulars, plus confessed to visting Treblinka 2 in 1941 to see how they had perfected mass gassing after six months of operation, when T2 wasn't built and operational before July 1942?

How come the holocaust true-believing archeological teams with all their confirmational bias and search for the mass graves at any of the so-called 'extermination centres' or 'death camps' have never found the proof of the crores of remains and requisite area of mass grave?

Etc., etc., etc.

See that?

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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by Turnagain » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:02 pm

been -there wrote:
How come there is not only no conclusive empirical that the guardians of the mass-gassing mythology can present to support their allegations of genocide, but that much of the testimony from the lie-witnesses/eye-witnesses actually defies empirical reality in so many crucial particulars?
DP and his fellow clowns are very quick to brag about how many books they've read about the holyhoax and blather endlessly about, "That guy said this" and "This guy said that" but come up short on any mathematics books they've studied or claiming any experience in practical engineering. As far as the lie-witnesses, we're supposed to disregard their blatant lies as just (heh-heh) little "mistakes" and accept their "big picture" claims that the eeevul Narzis killed umpty-gazillion of the poor, sufferink Jews. Hey, if it happened it was possible. Right?

We aren't going to get any answers about who gave the orders, how it was done and where is the empirical evidence from anyone from the Clown forum. The fact is, there aren't any answers to such questions. Nessie will stamp his feet and shriek, "Evidence, I have evidence" but that's just he say/she say dreck. Waiting on answers from the Clown forum is like waiting for Godot.

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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by Bunim Abend » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:07 am

been-there wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:17 pm
:lol: :lol:

Hilarious.
You're not very bright, are you?

been-there has then decided to ask plenty of questions without answering any of the OP's questions, LOL!

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Re: Been There's 'Formal' Gassing Engine Thread

Post by DasPrussian » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:45 pm

Bunim Abend wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:07 am
been-there wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:17 pm
:lol: :lol:

Hilarious.
You're not very bright, are you?

been-there has then decided to ask plenty of questions without answering any of the OP's questions, LOL!
Thank you Bunim for highlighting the hypocritical and sub-standard behaviour of Been There. Everybody who has encountered him is aware of how he operates, he is notorious for dodging questions, repeating long debunked canards and applying infantile like logic in interpreting evidence.

I have made two posts on here so far that form a critique of his 'formal' gassing thread in respect of the diesel/gasoline issue. My first post included 3 questions for Been There to answer , his response was just to post the word 'hilarious' :?: :?: as Bunim has re posted above. My second post consisted of a challenge of Been There's 'scarce supply of petrol' argument. His reply to this was to produce 11 questions of his own, and only one was related to the Sobibor gassing engine topic !!!! :?: :?:

At the bottom of his tragic response , he signs off by exclaiming "See that ? Asking questions is easy" !!!!!

Now considering he has spent most of his forum life doing just that - asking questions - just proves how hyprocritical he is , and also shows him up to be a serial dodger of questions and challenges, especially when he finds them rather troubling.

So, I suggest instead of dodging my 3 questions and ignoring my challenge to ill thought out claims regarding 'shortage of fuel' , Been There needs to remove his head from whatever orifice it currently resides in and start facing awkward challenges and important questions head on, otherwise he will continue to be looked upon as some sort of bad joke or an ultra biased illogical time waster and charlatan .

PS - the questions you have asked are typical of the piss poor manner in how your mind interprets the historical truth, especially when the outcome or reality of the event does not suit your agenda. The sad thing is that you probably think they are extremely 'awkward' questions and will somehow help your mission in spreading pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish propaganda. Bad news for you is at first glance these questions look piss easy to answer. In fact so easy that I cannot imagine what possessed you to ask them in the first place. You was probably asking the same questions 10 years ago and have conveniently 'forgot' they were easily dealt with.

If you don't know the answers to your long list of mainly off-topic questions then your knowledge of the holocaust must be as piss-poor as that of 'huntinger' or 'turnagain' , in which case you'd be better served plying your trade with them in Siberia.

But all that apart, If you want them answered, you first need to learn some manners and answer mine. Then you need to respond to my challenge to your 'shortage of fuel' canard. A fair and reasonable request by anyones standards, surely !
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