The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

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Nessie
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The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by Nessie » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:45 am

The denier claim that there was no Holocaust needs to be evidenced. The burden of proof is on the claimant. This forum is dedicated to claiming there was no Holocaust. Those who support that claim are not exempt from the burden of proof.

Deniers need to produce witnesses, documents, physical and other supporting evidence to show that there was no Holocaust.

Examples of the type of evidence that deniers need is;

- a witness to mass showering at Sobibor, where the witness had not been selected to work, was taken with hundreds of others, showered and then put on a mass transport back out of the camp.

- a Nazi guard from Belzec who states that on arrival, the trains unloaded, all the prisoners handed over their property and then they were all marched out of the camp to accommodation elsewhere.

- a document that records daily arrivals at Majdanek of trainloads from TII.

- a senior Nazi who states that on a visit to TII, he saw the new showers that had been installed for prisoners.

- a document ordering more vehicles to transport arrivals at Chelmno to other camps.

- a physical survey of Sobibor that finds no traces of cremated remains or disturbed ground, showing there had never been mass graves there.

- a witness to those who gathered at Babi Yar, who states that the Jews were then put onto vehicles and transported elsewhere away from Kiev.

- modern day compensation claims from tens of thousands of people who say they had been at Chelmno.

- minutes of a meeting about the new accommodation being built to accommodate all the Hungarian Jews sent to Birkenau, who were not selected to work

With allegedly millions of people not gassed or shot there will be tons of evidence to show how they were transported and accommodated, since if they were not killed, that is what must have happened to them.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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torus9
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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by torus9 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:07 am

You need evidence of God to continue calling it a "Holocaust" i.e. "a burnt sacrificial offering dedicated exclusively to God". So let's at least strip away the sanctimonious dreck of the semantics. No God, no holocaust.

I'm well aware that the preceeding is not your "point", yet the terminology employed only serves to deify/mystify the events.

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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by rollo the ganger » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:38 am

Nessie wrote:The denier claim that there was no Holocaust needs to be evidenced. The burden of proof is on the claimant. This forum is dedicated to claiming there was no Holocaust. Those who support that claim are not exempt from the burden of proof.
But there ARE witnesses and there IS evidence. We've been showing you tons of it but you just ignore it Nessie.

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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by Turnagain » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:13 pm

Me: The hermetically sealed gas chamber was an impossibility.
Nessie: The Germans knew how to build a secure building.
Me: The M&H dragline couldn't have both dug and stockpiled the ex for the graves.
Nessie: A different excavator was used.
Me: You've shown photos of the M&H at Treblinka.
Nessie: That was after the special excavator left.
Me: The bodies couldn't have been exhumed whole with a clamshell.
Nessie: The special excavator exhumed the bodies.
Me: The Wiernik model and the rest of the models prove that Wiernik didn't see any mass graves.
Nessie: The models are wrong and don't count.
Me: The Floss method of cremation is impossible.
Nessie: Nobody has tried to cremate 3,000 bodies on a grate.

So it goes with Nessie. That's by no means the complete list of Nessie's weasel dodges. Anyone care to add to it?

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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by Huntinger » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:38 am

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:13 pm
That's by no means the complete list of Nessie's weasel dodges. Anyone care to add to it?
Scottish author Robert Louis Stevenson, narrating a tale of "buccaneers and buried gold," made the following map.
Image
This map suggested great treasure, buried gold, silver, rubies, emeralds the like the world had never seen before.

The map made its way to Norway and Finally to Moscow, where Akiva Ezekstein paid ₪ 35.6, a rather modest fee. He studied the map, discussing it with friends until finally they decided on an epic voyage to find the treasure.

Finally Akiva with the Baker Bellman Banker, Barrister, Billiard-Marker, Boots, Bonnet-Maker, Broker, and Butcher, accompanied by a Beaver stood on the shore looking for the treasure they called the "Snark". They sought it with thimbles—and sought it with care;
They hunted it with forks and hope; they threatened its life with a railway-share; they charmed it with smiles and soap.

Finally they found the spot on the map and dug and dug but nothing was there. The Bellman cried, "where did it go"

"It's a Snark!" was the sound that first came to their ears, and seemed almost too good to be true.
Then followed a torrent of laughter and cheers: then the ominous words "It's a Boo—"

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,In the midst of his laughter and glee, he had softly and suddenly vanished away— For the Snark was a Boojum, you see
.
𝕰𝖎𝖓 𝖁𝖔𝖑𝖐, 𝖊𝖎𝖓 𝕽𝖊𝖎𝖈𝖍, 𝖊𝖎𝖓 𝕱𝖚̈𝖍𝖗𝖊𝖗

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torus9
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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by torus9 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:09 am

Just a trivial example of how deification and mysticism amplifies the delusion coupled with the sweet stench of pretentious notoriety.

"German historian Marie Sophie Hingst, famous for her blog about family members who perished in the Holocaust, has been caught in a lie. The revelation also put the media, which published her other ‘personal stories’, in a bind."

A "bind" ? :lol:

https://www.rt.com/news/460904-german-b ... aust-hoax/

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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by Turnagain » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:47 am

torus9 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:09 am
Just a trivial example of how deification and mysticism amplifies the delusion coupled with the sweet stench of pretentious notoriety.

"German historian Marie Sophie Hingst, famous for her blog about family members who perished in the Holocaust, has been caught in a lie. The revelation also put the media, which published her other ‘personal stories’, in a bind."

A "bind" ? :lol:

https://www.rt.com/news/460904-german-b ... aust-hoax/

Shades of Binny Wilkomirski and his once famous but now infamous book, "Fragments". Binny wrote his memories of being a child in Auschwitz when he in fact spent the war years quite comfortably in Switzerland. It was an international sensation and best seller until, alas, some nosey parker blew the whistle on him.

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torus9
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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by torus9 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:45 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:47 am

Shades of Binny Wilkomirski and his once famous but now infamous book, "Fragments". Binny wrote his memories of being a child in Auschwitz when he in fact spent the war years quite comfortably in Switzerland. It was an international sensation and best seller until, alas, some nosey parker blew the whistle on him.
Although none of this will suffice to satisfy Nessie's inquiry, it does however display that the discourse has been seeded with 'pious' opportunism. Which of course begs the question...

I don't have to say it.

I must say that if Zundel can serve two years in solitary and five years in Mannheim for merely questioning the veracity of historical dogma, that I hereby sentence that opportunist Hingst to fourteen years of servitude in a south Chicago 7/11 for attempting to insert herself into the pantheon of deities.

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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by rollo the ganger » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:51 am

Maybe it would help if the hoaxsters would define exactly what the "Holocaust" is. Nessie keeps falling back on his logical fallacy of "If not A then B" argument. The logical inference here is that if there is no definitive evidence of something referred to as the "Holocaust" then there MUST have been something else.

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been-there
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Re: The claim of no Holocaust needs evidence.

Post by been-there » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:45 pm

.
What a curiously illogical topic-thread question.
So "the claim of 'no Holocaust' needs evidence" does it??? Hmmmm? :ugeek:

Er... does the claim of 'no Unicorns' also need evidence?
If so, what would suffice? There ARE many similar stories about Unicorns. So is that a 'convergence of evidence'?

Image

Or... does a claim of 'no Martian invasion' need evidence?
Can anyone provide any evidence that alien extra-terrestials from planet Mars have not invaded planet Earth?
There ARE stories about that. And films.
But if anyone believes they are fiction, how can anyone provide evidence the stories didn't occur in reality?
Image

Well, actually isn't the answer to do that in exactly the same way that revisionists have proved the holocaust mass-gassing stories are fictions. I.e. By analysing and testing the details of the 'holocaust' stories. And by investigating whether the locations claimed support the stories or not, by using logic and science.
All of which revisionists have done and been persecuted for doing too successfully.

Q1. And then what is 'THE Holocaust™' exactly, that anyone needs evidence against it's claims?
Did it start in 1933, or 1939, or 1941 or January 1942 at Wannsee?
Did it kill 4.3 million people or 5.1 million, or 6 million or 11 million people, 17 million or even more?

Image
Image

And Q2. what does someone have to have done, and where do you have to have been, to be classified as a 'survivor' of it?

Sadly, the first is not something that true-believers can agree upon in any detail.
As for the second question, a 'holocaust survivor' appears to be anyone claiming Jewish ethnicity living in Europe who was born before 1941 and still alive in 1946.

Consider this weak attempt at a definition.
Ronald J. Berger wrote:Legitimate historical revisionism acknowledges a "certain body of irrefutable evidence" or a "convergence of evidence" that suggest that an event — like the black plague, American slavery, or the Holocaust — did in fact occur.
(Ronald J. Berger. Fathoming the Holocaust: A Social Problems Approach, Aldine Transaction, 2002, p. 154.).
Consider the above definition, as it seems representative of the problem with the whole revisionist/denier discussion.
Because with this definition aren't we already in a vague, undefined, self-referential, circular-argument?
With the other examples given, each aspect of the terms can easily be defined on their own merits. But the holocaust stands as an undefined vague term that it is expected the reader recognises and accepts without quibble or question.
E.g.

Q.What was the black plague?
A. Easy. Black is a colour, the darkest there is, owing to the absence of or complete absorption of light. Plague refers to any kind of pandemic or epidemic disease. The black plague refers to a rampant pandemic that resulted in the deaths of many millions of people in medieval Europe.
Q. How many people?
A. 75 to 200 million people.
Q. Is considering the lower figure acceptable or is that a form of denial?
A. It's acceptable.
Q.Why is it called so?
A. Swedish and Danish chronicles of the 16th century described the events as "black" for the first time, not to describe the late-stage sign of the disease - in which the sufferer's skin would blacken due to subepidermal hemorrhages and the extremities would darken with a form of gangrene (acral necrosis) - but more likely to refer to "black" in the sense of glum or dreadful and to denote the terror and gloom of the events.
Q. Is questioning or researching any other aspects the black plague off limits?
A. No. That's OK.

Q.What was American slavery?
A. Easy. America refers to a continent situated between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Slavery refers to the trade in and forced exploitation of other people as owned labourers. American slavery refers to the trade in and exploitation of black African people by the white inhabitants of America predominantly in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.
Q. Is questioning or researching the numbers of people enslaved acceptable, or is that a form of denial?
A. It's acceptable.
Q. Is questioning or researching any other aspects of American slavery off limits?
A. No. That's OK.

Q.What was the Holocaust?
A. Erm, if you are older than fifteen and you have to ask you are probably a denier. Everyone knows that is was the cruel and sadistic plan to systematically murder ALL of the Jews in Europe during WW2.
Q. Were ALL of the Jews in Europe during WW2 actually systematically murdered?
A. No. But be careful, as you are venturing into denier territory by asking that.
Q. Oh, sorry. How many were deliberately and systematically killed in this alleged plan, then?
A. Five to six million. But don't say 'alleged plan'.
Q. Oh. Is there any actual documentary evidence of the plan, then?
A. Do not ask such questions and show some respect for the dead.
Q. Is considering the lower figure of five million acceptable or is that a form of denial?
A. Its not acceptable* and is denial if you question any other aspect of THE holocaust.
Q. What other aspects are there that can not be questioned?
A. Any and all other aspect of it.
Q. Such as?
A. If you have to ask and are older than fifteen then you are probably a latent denier and have a racist hatred of Jews. Don't go there.
Q. No, I don't hate Jews, I'm just interested in what actually is this thing called 'THE holocaust' and curious to know what is not allowed to be questioned about it and why.
A. How dare you! How DARE you! :o :x

*N.B.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Adol ... lion....22
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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