Sobibor investigation

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neugierig
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Sobibor investigation

Post by neugierig » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:42 am

It appears, the Sobibor 'investigation' is continuing, without Herr Muehlenkamp (oh no, I am talking behind his back again). In today's Ha'aretz we read:

“Israeli archaeologist digs into Sobibor death camp in search of Nazi killing machines

Yoram Haimi's biggest breakthrough yet: mapping of what the Germans called the Himmelfahrsstrasse, or the 'Road to Heaven,' a path upon which the inmates were marched naked into the gas chambers.”
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jew ... s-1.459803

Eureka, the Himmelfahrtsstraße has been found, well then, can anyone still doubt? A little more from the article:

“Over five years of excavations, Haimi has been able to remap the camp and has unearthed thousands of items. He hasn't found anything about his family, but amid the teeth, bone shards and ashes through which he has sifted, he has recovered jewelry, keys and coins that have helped identify some of Sobibor's formerly nameless victims.
The heavy concentration of ashes led him to estimate that far more than 250,000 Jews were actually killed at Sobibor.”


Thousands of items but so far nothing substantial, like a grave. Sorry, I forgot the ashes, they reveal that “far more than 250,000 Jews were actually killed at Sobibor”. No doubt, the Russian investigators concluded that 3 million were killed at Treblinka, judging by the ashes.

Speaking of Treblinka:

“Once his work in Sobibor is done, Haimi hopes to move on to research at Treblinka and other destroyed death camps.”

What about sweet Carolins' dig at Treblinka, no good?

The dog and pony show must go on, forever, the chosenites existence depends on it.

Regards
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

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Charles Traynor
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by Charles Traynor » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:20 pm

Good find Wilf; this article should clearly demonstrate to anyone with a critical eye the type of unscrupulous individuals who are behind the hoax.
Because of the difficult conditions at Sobibor and the sensitive nature of the effort, he is also relying on more non-invasive, high-tech aids such as ground-penetrating radar and global positioning satellite imaging.
The heavy concentration of ashes led him to estimate that far more than 250,000 Jews were actually killed at Sobibor.
In other words Haimi has not been allowed to dig up and physically examine the contents of any of the alleged mass graves (for obvious reasons). Despite this the exterminationist owned news media tells us the orthodoxy probably intends increasing the Sobibor death toll in the near future based on his work.

When I read this type of thing I can’t help but feel some of the tin foil hats at Hoaxster Central are working to replace Hilberg’s 5.1M with the more kosher 6M figure.

Is it just pure coincidence that Herr Muehlenkamp is on vacation at this time? :shock:
Kitty Hart-Moxon (1998): "Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."

neugierig
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by neugierig » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:02 am

Charles, are you suggesting that Herr Muehlenkamp is..., naw, couldn't be. :mrgreen:

But you are right, this is another embarrassment for the Industry. No investigation, just some junk found, nothing substantial. And most people reading it will gasp: Those horrible Nazis.

Armes Deutschland, not to be confused with the BRD
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

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Charles Traynor
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by Charles Traynor » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:44 pm

I am very disappointed (but not surprised) by the Polish government’s role in this matter. Sobibor is a site of immense historical and political significance and any investigation of the camp needs to be carried out by an impartial team whose integrity will not be questioned. With this in mind one has to wonder what the Poles were thinking when they gave permission to Yoram Haimi and his backers at Yad Vashem to carry out this survey work?

Image
Young people are indoctrinated by Yoram Haimi
"His details are exact and that is an important tool against Holocaust denial. It's not memories, it's based on facts. It's hard evidence," he said.

But the accurate layout is Haimi's greatest contribution, allowing researchers to learn more about how it functioned, said Deborah Dwork, director of the Strassler Family Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.
Does anyone here know where Haimi’s accurate layouts of Sobibor can be found outside of Deborah Dwork’s mind?
Kitty Hart-Moxon (1998): "Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."

rollo the ganger
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by rollo the ganger » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:33 pm

Yoram Haimi's time and the money he is using could be better spent investigating Israeli's own concentration camps:

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/israel-%E2%8 ... s%E2%80%9D

The "Shvugees" don't rate in Israeli and the excuses and methods of keeping them out sound awfully familiar.

Roberto
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by Roberto » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:15 pm

neugierig wrote:Charles, are you suggesting that Herr Muehlenkamp is..., naw, couldn't be. :mrgreen:

But you are right, this is another embarrassment for the Industry. No investigation, just some junk found, nothing substantial. And most people reading it will gasp: Those horrible Nazis.

Armes Deutschland, not to be confused with the BRD
Wilf
Hi there, Mr. Heink.

I see you still haven't lost your habit of talking about people behind their backs, besides repeating your moronic "nothing substantial" prayers.

No, I haven't been at Sobibór lately. But I like what's going on there. Excerpt from a related article:
Over five years of excavations, Haimi has been able to remap the camp and has unearthed thousands of items. He hasn't found anything about his family, but amid the teeth, bone shards and ashes through which he has sifted, he has recovered jewelry, keys and coins that have helped identify some of Sobibor's formerly nameless victims.

The heavy concentration of ashes led him to estimate that far more than 250,000 Jews were actually killed at Sobibor.

"Because of the lack of information about Sobibor, every little piece of information is significant," said Haimi. "No one knew where the gas chambers were. The Germans didn't want anyone to find out what was there. But thanks to what we have done, they didn't succeed."

The most touching find thus far, he said, has been an engraved metal identification tag bearing the name of Lea Judith de la Penha, a 6-year-old Jewish girl from Holland who Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial confirmed was murdered at the camp.

Haimi calls her the "symbol of Sobibor."

"The Germans didn't discriminate. They killed little girls too," he said ."This thing (the tag) has been waiting for 70 years for someone to find it."

[...]

Based on debris collected and patterns in the soil, he has been able to figure out where the Nazis placed poles to hold up the camp's barbed wire fences.

That led him to his major breakthrough - the mapping of what the Germans called the Himmelfahrsstrasse, or the "Road to Heaven," a path upon which the inmates were marched naked into the gas chambers. He determined its route by the poles that marked the path. From that, he determined where the gas chambers would have been located.

He also discovered that another encampment was not located where originally thought and uncovered an internal train route within Sobibor. He dug up mounds of bullets at killing sites, utensils from where he believes the camp kitchen was located and a swastika insignia of a Nazi officer.

Along the way, he and his Polish partner Wojciech Mazurek, along with some 20 laborers, have stumbled on thousands of personal items belonging to the victims: eye glasses, perfume bottles, dentures, rings, watches, a child's Mickey Mouse pin, a diamond-studded gold chain, a pair of gold earrings inscribed ER - apparently the owner's initials - a silver medallion engraved with the name "Hanna."
I'm looking forward to your attempts to explain Haimi's reported finds in keeping with the "Revisionist" humbug about the place having been a "transit camp". You may start by providing some faith-conforming evidence to why 6-year-old Lea Judith de la Penha was transported to Sobibór from Holland and what became of her.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

neugierig
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by neugierig » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:28 pm

Herr Muehlenkamp, herzlich wilkommen! And yes you are right, “talking behind your back” is a bad habit of mine, please forgive me and I will try and not do it anymore. :mrgreen:

As for the Yoram Haimi sham, please tell me why I should now believe that Sobibor was an extermination camp, based on what he found. The ashes? Naw, no good, for as you will remember the Russians also claimed to have found ashes at Treblinka, 3 million peaceful Soviet citizens worth, but that turned out to be a bogus claim.

You know my slogan Herr Muehlenkamp: No graves no St. Holoklotz. If solid evidence would exist, an impossibility for Sobibor was also a transit camp, there would be no need for the Haimi dog and pony show. We would instead be shown the results of an investigation undertaken by trained experts. So to repeat: Where are the graves?

Also, why would Haimi have to move on to Treblinka, didn't sweet Caroline “investigate” that site?

Regards
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

Roberto
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by Roberto » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:29 pm

neugierig wrote:Herr Muehlenkamp, herzlich wilkommen! And yes you are right, “talking behind your back” is a bad habit of mine, please forgive me and I will try and not do it anymore. :mrgreen:

As for the Yoram Haimi sham, please tell me why I should now believe that Sobibor was an extermination camp, based on what he found. The ashes? Naw, no good, for as you will remember the Russians also claimed to have found ashes at Treblinka, 3 million peaceful Soviet citizens worth, but that turned out to be a bogus claim.
3 million may have been an overestimate, but large amounts of human ashes and larger remains were found at Treblinka, as documented in site investigation reports and photographs illustrating the same (details here). And there were hundreds of thousands of documented deportees to Treblinka whose fate you cannot account for otherwise (and whose death at Treblinka is compatible with what is known about the size of the graves area and the depth of the pits there, as demonstrated here). And then there is the documentary and eyewitness evidence, which consistently points to mass killing at Treblinka while not a shred of evidence points to your "transit camp" baloney.

The reasons why you should reasonably accept that Sobibór was an extermination camp are manifold and not limited to the reported finds of Yoram Haimi, against which you have no better arguments than to bluntly call the man a liar (and thereby admitting that his finds are substantial evidence if accurately reported). The deportation of about 150,000 people to that place is borne out by documentary evidence. All eyewitnesses (inmates, SS-men, Ukrainian guards, bystanders) spoke of mass murder, none of "transit" to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories. At least seven mass graves, with a total size commensurate with the burial of at least 80,000 people (the number buried whole before they started cremating the bodies at Sobibór), have been identified by archaeologists. Archaeologists have found lots of objects that people wouldn't have left behind at Sobibór if they had been transited onwards from there (stuff like spectacles and dentures, you know). Archaeologists have found objects pertaining to people known to have been taken to Sobibór, people who never again showed up alive. Archaeologists have identified physical features of the camp corresponding to eyewitness descriptions of the killing process. And there's no evidence whatsoever that would support your "transit camp" fantasy, even though you should be wading in such evidence.
neugierig wrote:You know my slogan Herr Muehlenkamp: No graves no St. Holoklotz.
The graves are there. We know from archaeological reports how big they are and what they contain. We can even see some of them on a satellite photograph that the archaeologists in question didn't have at their disposal, with the same shape as mapped by these archaeologists, thus confirming the veracity of their report.
neugierig wrote:If solid evidence would exist, an impossibility for Sobibor was also a transit camp, there would be no need for the Haimi dog and pony show. We would instead be shown the results of an investigation undertaken by trained experts.
Baseless coulda-shoulda-woulda-dooda is no argument, and besides, archaeologists are trained experts. No one has more expertise than them when it comes to identifying mass graves and other structures related to mass murder.

How about telling us, by the way, what "solid" evidence your acceptance of your black beasts' crimes as factual is based on? You know, stuff like Stalin's purges and labor camps, Red Army crimes against German POWs and civilians, etc.
neugierig wrote:So to repeat: Where are the graves?
Here:
Image

And here:
Image

And here:
Grave no 1 is located in the north - eastern part of hectare 17, just west from the memorial to victims. The site was excavated by 27 drills. Horizontally, it measures 20 x 20 m and is up to 4.30 m deep. It was a body burning grave.
Grave no 2 is located in the western part of the hectare 17, south from the memorial. It was excavated by 28 drills. Horizontally its shape is irregular, measuring at least 20 x 25 m – with its longer side in NS position – and with depth up to 4 metres. It was a body burning grave.
Grave no 3 is located in the south- western part of hectare 11 and north - western part of hectare 17. It was excavated by 17 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring around 20 x 12 m - with its longer side in NS position. The biggest part of the grave is located under north - western part of the memorial. It’s up to 5.80 m deep. In bottom layers, the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal. The northern part of the grave is located near to northern part of the grave no 4. The more precise location of the graves requires additional research.
Grave no 4. It’s a grave with significant size, located in southern part of hectare 11, as well as northern and central parts of hectare 18. It was excavated by 78 drills. Horizontally, in NS position, it measures 70 x 20-25 m with the depth of around 5m. In bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal.
[...]
Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 x 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.
Grave no 6. It’s located in the central part of hectare 18, south from grave no 5. It was excavated by 22 drills. Horizontally, it’s irregular, measuring at least 15 x 25 m, with its depth up to 3.05 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. The upper layers - burnt body remains.
Grave no 7. Location of body burning activity, measuring at least 10 x 3 m, with its depth up to 0.90 m, in the central part of hectare 18, around 10-12 m south from the southern side of grave 4. The vast majority of burnt body remains were found in 6 drills. Around, vast ground transformation of an uncertain genesis. Only because of the burnt body remains found, the structure was thought of as a grave. In order to state the function of the place more accurately, further archaeological research needs to be conducted.
Yoram Haimi reportedly found an eighth grave.
neugierig wrote:Also, why would Haimi have to move on to Treblinka, didn't sweet Caroline “investigate” that site?
Better two experts than one, and why the quote marks? Can you provide evidence that the lady didn't find what she reported to have found, or do you just enjoy making a fool of yourself?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

neugierig
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by neugierig » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:29 pm

Staying with the ashes for just a moment, Herr Muehlenkamp, Lukazkiewicz stated in his final report, USSR-344, that about 2ha in the north-west area of the camp was covered with a mixture of ashes and sand. The problem is, even if we use his map with the wrong “North”, the Totenlager was not in the N-W part.

As for Sobibor, did you notice the “The heavy concentration of ashes...” Haimi talks about, when you were there? Where are they? And it must be “heavy concentration” for him “...to estimate that far more than 250,000 Jews were actually killed at Sobibor “. This “heavy concentration of ashes” survived the winds, rains, snow, etc., of now almost 70 years? Remarkable.

As for your graves, I am not talking about imagined graves, but the real ones. You see Herr Muehlenkamp, the Industry knows that there are non, naturally, since Sobibor was a transit camp, and this is why it is hiding behind some Jewish burial laws, alleged to exist.

If there would be any substantial evidence at all to support the claims (lies), there would be no need for theatrical props as produced by Haimi. Revisionists just need to sit back and let Industry sham artists go through their routine, they regularly provide the best evidence against “The Holocaust”.

As for the six year old, kids were also transported east. You claim she was murdered, prove it and no, her identifying tag is no evidence that she was murdered.

And please, Herr Muehlenkamp, try and keep your replies down to one volume, thank you. :)

Regards
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

Clark
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Re: Sobibor investigation

Post by Clark » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:42 am

RM
Yoram Haimi reportedly found an eighth grave
Is this what you're talking about:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=16114
Roberto Muehlenkamp, VNN post #777:
“…would you please provide the proof of: …Just one ounce of human ash at Sobibor…”

“No problem… IV.2.3 Physical evidence documented in photographs…

A mound of the ashes… at the remembrance site on the grounds of the camp…

A mound of the remains… at the remembrance site on the grounds of the camp…”


Roberto Muehlenkamp, VNN post #902:
…"proving" that the mound of ash at the Sobibor memorial is actually comprised of human ash… will be answered in an article that I shall try to get published in SKEPTIC magazine


Roberto Muehlenkamp, VNN post #916:
“…The conclusion that the mound in question is comprised of human ash is thus the conclusion that is borne out by all known evidence and belied by none. It is also the conclusion towards which various sources of evidence independent of each other converge. This convergence of various sources of evidence… is proof that the mound in question is comprised of human ash…”


See the proof that Sobibor’s grave # 8 / 46 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies with your own eyes. (Just as Mr. Shermer did personally when he went to Sobibor to conduct research and to see for himself what evidence there was at the camp.) The following photo “shows a huge mound of ashes and bone fragments surrounded by a stone wall:” http://www.scrapbookpages.com/poland/So ... our01.html

As Roberto Muehlenkamp’s posts point out and the convergence of evidence theory proves, (a theory that Mr. Shermer espouses) Sobibor’s memorial / grave #8 / 46 is comprised of human remains / ash, and it simply defies simple logic, common sense and the convergence of evidence theory that a mound comprised of human remains / ashes as large as the one at Sobibor (see the above photo), does NOT contain the remains of at least 19 bodies.
BTW RM, what ever happened to that SKEPTIC magazine submittal of yours?

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