Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Huntinger » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:42 pm

Satyam wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm
a document of a transport 600 jews, all category SB, from theresiebstadt to auschwitz.
the leichenkeller in auschwitz was also referred to as "sonderkeller" and even "gaskeller" thats documented. how you explain that?
If they were already categorized as you suggested before they left the ghetto there would be little point of the infamous Auschwitz selection at Dr Mengele flicks his wrist to the left or right. The only other meaning of Leichenkeller is death cellar or morgue. If these Jude were already for the crematoriums they were already dead; you need to confirm if the passengers were actually living or if this was just another morgue train. There is no such word as gaskellar, the chambers used for disinfestation were called gaskammers. Now here you have a problem, if there was a euthanazia program for the old, infirm and the dying who could not work which is stated at Aktion 14f13, (wrong thread), this is not genocide of Jude, just extinction of the dying and infirm. Even if they went to Auschwitz there is no reason why 600 could not have been shot there which would have given Oskar Dirlewangers thugs some target practise. Most of Auschwitz inmates were unable to work and given special treatment of medical care but even if they were sent to death this does not support the point of this thread of proof that a single Jude was gassed. If the Russians can shoot 22 000 in the head I am sure the Germans could get rid of a small 600

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Satyam » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:03 pm

documents regards gassing:

The real facts are much better documented. For example, it is known that Nazis used gas buses at one point to murder Jews (eventually they abandoned this system because it was not efficient enough). This is known partly because SS-Major General Dr Harald Turner, chief of the German Administration in Serbia, wrote to Karl Wolff, chief of Heinrich Himmler's personal staff, on 11 April 1942.

In the note Turner describes a 'delousing van' - the quotation marks around the word already suggest that it is a euphemism - then makes it quite clear what this means:

Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a 'delousing van', that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp...

Additional details about these buses are to be found in a letter from Willy Just to SS Lieutenant Colonel Walter Rauff on 5 June 1942. In the letter, Just describes how a load of '97,000 have been processed'. He leaves little doubt about the nature of the load, when he writes about it pushing against the door as a result of 'fear aroused by the darkness'.

Just also offers Rauff a series of suggestions on how the vans might be improved. Since there was a problem of 'off-road manoeuvrability', he suggests that the cargo area be reduced. This would make the operation more efficient, because '... were the cargo area smaller, but fully occupied, the operation would take considerably less time, because there would be no empty space.'

Deniers find it impossible to 'explain away' these kinds of documents so they generally ignore them.

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Huntinger » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:32 pm

Satyam wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:03 pm
documents regards gassing:

The real facts are much better documented. For example, it is known that Nazis used gas buses at one point to murder Jews (eventually they abandoned this system because it was not efficient enough). This is known partly because SS-Major General Dr Harald Turner, chief of the German Administration in Serbia, wrote to Karl Wolff, chief of Heinrich Himmler's personal staff, on 11 April 1942.

In the note Turner describes a 'delousing van' - the quotation marks around the word already suggest that it is a euphemism - then makes it quite clear what this means:

Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a 'delousing van', that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp...

Additional details about these buses are to be found in a letter from Willy Just to SS Lieutenant Colonel Walter Rauff on 5 June 1942. In the letter, Just describes how a load of '97,000 have been processed'. He leaves little doubt about the nature of the load, when he writes about it pushing against the door as a result of 'fear aroused by the darkness'.

Just also offers Rauff a series of suggestions on how the vans might be improved. Since there was a problem of 'off-road manoeuvrability', he suggests that the cargo area be reduced. This would make the operation more efficient, because '... were the cargo area smaller, but fully occupied, the operation would take considerably less time, because there would be no empty space.'

Deniers find it impossible to 'explain away' these kinds of documents so they generally ignore them.
This false dichotomy by calling people deniers does your arguments little justice and shows with great clarity that you are a hoaxer and not a genuine scholar.
Harald Major zur Disposition" (z.D.) "in etatmäßiger Stelle" beim Bezirkskommando Worms. His Staff Officer, Obersturmbannführer Dr. Georg Kiesel, once said that the Wehrmacht had tried to have Dr. Turner removed from Serbia!

Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp..." Dr. Harold Turner's letter to Karl Wolff, dated April 11, 1942.[2]
It is clear this man was acting illegally in the Serbian region and it is clear he was not a member of Einsatzgruppe Serbia. The nature of the letter goes again SS protocols; it was not written on official SS stationary. If he is happy shooting Jude or Partizani then there seems little point in highly ineffectual gas vans as what is implied here. However, he uses the term Entlausungswagen for delousing van.
Now it does appear that Turners letter is riddled with spelling errors, bad german. This letter when compared to other letters written by the same person. Others claim the style of his letters are consistent. Why on earth would he say he murdered people and then in the next sentence or so use euphemisms. The letter is clearly a forgery. There is no other evidence to back any of the claims.

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Satyam » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:11 pm

Huntinger wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:32 pm
Satyam wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:03 pm
documents regards gassing:

The real facts are much better documented. For example, it is known that Nazis used gas buses at one point to murder Jews (eventually they abandoned this system because it was not efficient enough). This is known partly because SS-Major General Dr Harald Turner, chief of the German Administration in Serbia, wrote to Karl Wolff, chief of Heinrich Himmler's personal staff, on 11 April 1942.

In the note Turner describes a 'delousing van' - the quotation marks around the word already suggest that it is a euphemism - then makes it quite clear what this means:

Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a 'delousing van', that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp...

Additional details about these buses are to be found in a letter from Willy Just to SS Lieutenant Colonel Walter Rauff on 5 June 1942. In the letter, Just describes how a load of '97,000 have been processed'. He leaves little doubt about the nature of the load, when he writes about it pushing against the door as a result of 'fear aroused by the darkness'.

Just also offers Rauff a series of suggestions on how the vans might be improved. Since there was a problem of 'off-road manoeuvrability', he suggests that the cargo area be reduced. This would make the operation more efficient, because '... were the cargo area smaller, but fully occupied, the operation would take considerably less time, because there would be no empty space.'

Deniers find it impossible to 'explain away' these kinds of documents so they generally ignore them.
This false dichotomy by calling people deniers does your arguments little justice and shows with great clarity that you are a hoaxer and not a genuine scholar.
Harald Major zur Disposition" (z.D.) "in etatmäßiger Stelle" beim Bezirkskommando Worms. His Staff Officer, Obersturmbannführer Dr. Georg Kiesel, once said that the Wehrmacht had tried to have Dr. Turner removed from Serbia!

Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp..." Dr. Harold Turner's letter to Karl Wolff, dated April 11, 1942.[2]
It is clear this man was acting illegally in the Serbian region and it is clear he was not a member of Einsatzgruppe Serbia. The nature of the letter goes again SS protocols; it was not written on official SS stationary. If he is happy shooting Jude or Partizani then there seems little point in highly ineffectual gas vans as what is implied here. However, he uses the term Entlausungswagen for delousing van.
Now it does appear that Turners letter is riddled with spelling errors, bad german. This letter when compared to other letters written by the same person. Others claim the style of his letters are consistent. Why on earth would he say he murdered people and then in the next sentence or so use euphemisms. The letter is clearly a forgery. There is no other evidence to back any of the claims.
here is some documents suggesting gassing at auschwitz

Report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by SS-Sturmbannf�hrer Gricksch for SS-Col. von Herff and Reichsf�hrer-SS Himmler, after inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.
Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California Press, 1984, p. 142-143:

The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the Jewish question. The most advanced methods permit the execution of the F�hrer-order in the shortest possible time and without arousing much attention. The so-called "resettlement action" runs the following course: The Jews arrive in special trains (freight cars) toward evening and are driven on special tracks to areas of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose. There the Jews are unloaded and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in the presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp and are restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle behind everything is: conserve all manpower for work. The previous type of "resettlement action" has been thoroughly rejected, since it is too costly to destroy precious work energy on a continual basis.

The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from outside. They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. They must therefore completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find their things again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion. Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped down into the pillars. As soon as the containers touch the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens on the other side, where the elevator is located. The hair of the corpses is cut off, and their teeth are extracted (gold-filled teeth) by specialists (Jews). It has been discovered that Jews were hiding pieces of Jewelry, gold, platinum etc., in hollow teeth. Then the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.

The results of this "resettlement action" to date: 500,000 Jews. Current capacity of the "resettlement action" ovens: 10,000 in 24 hours.


Notes From Diary of SS-Doctor Kremer, while in Auschwitz.
'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 256-268:

2 September 1942

3.00 a.m. attended my first Sonderaktion. Dante's Inferno seems to me almost a comedy compared to this. They don't call Auschwitz the extermination camp for nothing!

[Sonderaktion = special action, meaning extermination; in this case, gassing. See, for instance, two following documents.]

5 September 1942

In the morning attended a Sonderaktion from the women's concentration camp (Muslims); the most dreadful of horrors. Hschf. Thilo -- army doctor -- was right when he said to me this is the 'anus mundi'. In the evening towards 8.00 attended another Sonderaktion from Holland.

['Muslims' does not mean "practicing Islam;" this is the way the SS referred to emaciated people.]

10 October 1942

Extracted and fixed fresh live material from liver, spleen and pancreas....

11 October 1942

Today, Sunday, there was roast hare for lunch--a real fat leg--with dumplings and red cabbage for 1.25 RM.

12 October 1942

Second inoculation against typhus, later on in the evening severe generalized reaction (fever). Despite this in the night attended a further Sonderaktion from Holland (1,600 persons). Ghastly scenes in front of the last bunker! That was the 10th Sonderaktion.

13 November 1942

Extracted fresh live material (liver, spleen and pancreas) from a previously photographed, severely atrophied Jewish prisoner aged eighteen. Fixed as always, liver and spleen in Carnoy and pancreas in Zenker (Prisoner No. 68,030).


Letter from SS-Obersturmbannf�hrer Rodl to the inspector of concentration camps, SS-Obersturmbannf�hrer Liebehenschel, 14 November 1941.
Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California Press, 1984, p. 99:

The Commandant's office has submitted to date two lists recommending the conferment of the Kreigverdienstkreuz [war service cross]. In both of these appear SS personnel who participated in executions. We herewith request confirmation as to whether these names should be listed once again in the roll currently under preparation. Further requested is information as to whether in the recommendation lists under "reasons and comments of immediate superior" there should be specified "execution, i.e., special action" or whether a general, routine reason should be given.


Letter from Bischoff, head of construction management at Auschwitz, to the SS economic and administrative head office in Berlin, regarding construction at Auschwitz, 13 October 1942.
Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 198:

As regards the construction of the new crematorium building, it was necessary to start immediately in July 1942 because of the situation caused by the special actions.


Letter from SS-Sturmbannf�hrer Bischoff, of the Auschwitz construction department, to SS General Kammler, January 29, 1943.
The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe, 1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 158-159:

Crematorium No. 2. The completed furnaces have been started up in the presence of Engineer Prufer from Messers. Topf (of Erfurt). The planks cannot yet be moved from the ceiling of the mortuary cellar on account of frost, but this is not important, as the gassing cellar can be used for that purpose. The ventilation plant has been held up by restrictions on rail transport, but the installation should be ready by February 20th.


Letter from SS-Sturmbannf�hrer Bischoff, March 6 1943.
Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 434:

... order of 6/3/1943 concerning the delivery of a gas tight door 100 x 192 cm for cellar I of Krematorium III, to be produced to the identical pattern and dimensions as the cellar door of Krematorium II which is situated opposite, with peephole of double 8 mm glass, with rubber sealing strip and frame.


Letter from SS-Sturmbannf�hrer Jahrling to SS-General Kammler estimating the number of corpses that can be disposed off in 24 hours in the Auschwitz crematoriums, June 25 1943.
Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247:

1.) Crematorium I
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3 x 2 muffles 340 persons

2.) Crematorium II
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5 x 3 muffles 1440 persons

3.) Crematorium III
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5 x 3 muffles 1440 persons

4.) Crematorium IV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8 muffles 768 persons

5.) Crematorium V
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8 muffles 768 persons


A letter asking for a truck to bring Zyklon-B to Auschwitz; uses the standard camouflage term "resettlement of Jews" to refer to extermination. Another such document asks for "material for special treatment" - another term used to disguise extermination.
Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 557:

Radio message 13 SS Garrison Radio Station Auschwitz Origin WVHA [SS economic administration head office]

Received 2nd October 1942 in the Kommandantur of Auschwitz Concentration camp

The movement authorization for one 5 Ton truck with trailer to Dessau and back in order to pick up material for the resettlement of the Jews, is hereby accorded.

The authorization is to be given to the driver.


Liebehenschel
SS Lieutenant Colonel
Permanent representative of the head
of the service with the rank of Waffen SS
Lieutenant General
For file

Head of the radio station

Letter from SS-Sturmbannf�hrer Jahrling to Topf & Sons, March 6 1943.
Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 221:

[This document is interesting for two reasons: first, it demonstrates that the underground cellars in the crematoriums could not have possibly been morgues, as morgues are never heated; heating, however, does facilitate the evaporation of Zyklon-B. Also, the document - like many others - makes reference to an "undressing room," and there is no reason for a morgue to have one near by. Pressac contains numerous other documents attesting to the design and use of the Auschwitz gas chambers. Even the fake shower heads are mentioned.]

Subject: KL Auschwitz Krematorien II and III

In accordance with your suggestion, the service agrees that cellar 1 should be preheated with the air coming from the rooms of the 3 forced draught installations. The supply and installation of the ductwork and blowers necessary to this end are to be effected as soon as possible. As you point out in your above-mentioned letter, execution should commence this week. We would ask you to send in triplicate detailed quote for supply and installation.

At the same time, we would ask you to send an additional quotation for the modification of the air-extraction installation in the undressing room.

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Huntinger » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:25 pm

This is just giving the Narrative with nothing new here. The Leichenkellers were never heated, however the real gaskammers for delousing did have a heated ventilation system and did use Zb. More fiction.
These tales and more are of course all discussed here An Auschwitz Doctor's witness account. It is suggested to peruse that information and talk about specific matters. I think it always pays to stick to one small detail at a time unless the other details are intrinsically connected.

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Satyam » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:32 pm

Huntinger wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:25 pm
This is just giving the Narrative with nothing new here. The Leichenkellers were never heated, however the real gaskammers for delousing did have a heated ventilation system and did use Zb. More fiction.
so all those letters are fake?
you sure?
this is now becoming a flat earth debate.
that leaves us only with a debate on intelligence and integrity (and their opposites)

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Huntinger » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:11 pm

Satyam wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:32 pm
so all those letters are fake?
Most likely, faking letter of the SS was a great activity in those day, but thank you for bringing them again to the attention. Someone might have more to add. As you are aware it is of the opinion of some here that the gassing story and genocide was instigated by the Allies, and certainly forged in its final form by the Soviets. Serbia was a Communist state and very much prone to Soviet influence and the will of the NKVD. The SD are not super secretive on the one hand to have super secret RA camps and then at Birkenau to have alleged gaskammers a hundred metres or so from a sports ground where allied POWs played footy with the camp guards and others. For a letter to be sent with such details unencrypted not following the protocols would be a capital offense. These letters suddenly appear with regular monotony, well after the apparent facts. None in any case are conclusive just suggestive. The thread topic is not suggestive letters but hard proof, hard facts. I think the letters are interesting and should be discussed, but not here.

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Satyam » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am

ok, all the documents are fake, a conspiracy.
you convinced me. guess what? i now believe ww2 never happened, talk about the holocaust.
so much for that.
what remains now is to discuss intelligence, probability, integrity
or should we first go to antarctica proof the earth is flat?? shame NASA wont let us.

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Huntinger » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:40 am

Satyam wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am
ok, all the documents are fake, a conspiracy.
you convinced me. guess what? i now believe ww2 never happened, talk about the holocaust.
so much for that.
what remains now is to discuss intelligence, probability, integrity
or should we first go to antarctica proof the earth is flat?? shame NASA wont let us.
Quite a slippery slope to solipsism and nihilism you have embarked upon. Propaganda is all about belief, stories and information without evidence to convince people of one thing or another. NASA is not the geheime polizei and do not give a stuff about what you think and neither do we. On that note yes most of the documents are faked, there was no holocaust.
Wir hassen keine Juden, sie hassen uns, Sie und den Rest der Menschheit. Sie werden feststellen, dass dies wahr ist.

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Re: Prove that at least one Jew was definitely gassed with supporting hard data such as when and where?

Post by Turnagain » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:03 pm

AirfixGeneral wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:48 pm
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:38 pm
AirfixGeneral wrote:
oh boys, now you getting indictments mixed up with judgements , id give ups now befores you looks even mores stupids.
So, define the difference between an indictment and a judgement, Airfix. Be precise, you don't want to look "stupids."
why dont you googles it if you dont knows ? instesd of stallings for time by axings me .

the importants thing is that yous tried to suggests that nazis were charged at nurembergs withs steaming ju-ju to death, but in reliaties they were nots, cos it not in the judgements. but gas chambers was in the judgements. This demonstrates how you distorts the facts and distorts the truths.
I have googled it, Airfix so let's see if your results match up to what I've found. Let's determine if you're "stupids."

The gas chambers were in the "judgments"? A link to confirm that statement, Airfix. An excerpt and link to the Avalon project will do quite nicely.

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