Browning's Ordinary Men

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ralphgordon
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Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by ralphgordon »

http://temporachristiana.wordpress.com/ ... -browning/



http://theredphoenixapl.org/2010/11/19/ ... %E2%80%9D/



As a "denier" of sorts one of my main theoretical problems concerns the above book by Christopher Browning which, as the links above indicates, it is alleged that the men of the 101 Reserve Police Batallion actually carried out massacres of Jews under orders from higher authority. Now, it is indeed the case that the source material for Browning's book was the war crimes trials in Germany during the 1960s, and this is acknowledged.



As a "denier" I would seriously doubt that the Germans would need to deliberately massacre Jews, although I will qualify that. What I think is more likely is that Browning's book is based on lies, particularly in view of the fact that it is the only book that I know of that actually purports to deal with an allegedly concrete example of Jewish genocide. As part of my "Holocaust" reading I know that in these German war crimes trial it was the case that it was quite pointless to assert that one was not guilty of anti-Jewish atrocities, and that the only rational thing to do was to confess to what allegations one was accused of, and, so, in accordance with the German government's formal need to conform to the "exterminationist" narrative, each defendant would only be given a much reduced prison sentence, by comparasion with they would get in they continued to assert that they were not guilty of any atrocities.



However, even if Browning's book is actually true it would not indeed help to substantiate the notion of a Jewish "Holocaust" (i.e. a deliberate Nazi policy to physically exterminate the European Jews), since, what we have at the time of the alleged massacres, is, after the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, is a significant partisan war by both the Poles and the Russians against the Nazi occupiers, who, of course, acted with extreme measures against the partisans, which, in the light of Nazi ideology, identified all Jews with Communism, and so, I would think, that it was quite likely that the Nazis would have carried out massacres against the Jews; however, I would maintain that there is really no concrete evidence of such alleged atrocities against Jews, as it has never been possible to obtain concrete evidence of such massacres since both Polish and Russian governments would never have allowed serious investigations to be carried out. But the main point that I would make is that if there were such massacres of Jews it is simply the case that they were collateral damage in relation to the Nazi suppression of insurgents, and is not evidence of a "Holocaust"; moreover, the notion of Jewish massacres by means of mass shootings in Poland in 1942 onwards contradicts the whole notion of Nazi genocide by means of homicidal gas chambers, as it would have been far easier to dispose of Jews by that means, if technically feasible.



It is probably asking a lot but what I would like to know what are the views of both avowed "exterminationists" and "deniers" to the contents of Browning's book, about which it might be possible to read on the internet,and, in any case there is much material about it. As I say I think it is important as Browning's book is the only one I know of which actually purports to give a concrete example of alleged Nazi genocide.

http://www.harpercollins.com/browseinsi ... 0060995065
Above is a free online edition of Brownings book.

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neugierig
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by neugierig »

Ralph, thanks for the Browning book, I need to read it to comment. Richard Breitman refers to it in his "Official Secrets", a book I never finished reading. At one time a friend of mine and I were going to do some work on the EG, but it never came off. Did the EG kill Jews? Of course they did and they might even have singled them out as the carriers of the Bolshevik virus, you elude to that. But mass killings? No, for if they would have occurred we would be treated to TV show after TV show, with the locations of the graves as the centerpiece.

Regards
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

ralphgordon
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by ralphgordon »

neugierig wrote:Ralph, thanks for the Browning book, I need to read it to comment. Richard Breitman refers to it in his "Official Secrets", a book I never finished reading. At one time a friend of mine and I were going to do some work on the EG, but it never came off. Did the EG kill Jews? Of course they did and they might even have singled them out as the carriers of the Bolshevik virus, you elude to that. But mass killings? No, for if they would have occurred we would be treated to TV show after TV show, with the locations of the graves as the centerpiece.

Regards
Wilf
http://www.amazon.com/Official-Secrets- ... d+breitman
I have a copy of that book, I think (I have so many books and periodicals taking up much of my living space!), which I would be inclined to think was objectively "revisionist", as surely the traitor, Canais ( http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Spy-Chief ... ral+Canais ) would have informed the Allies if there had actually been a Jewish "Holocaust" (in the conventional "exterminationist sense), and if the Allies didn't actually believe it during the war, it is hardly likely to have been one -- don't forget Rabbi Wise said only about four million Jews actually came under the control of the Nazis. (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=6504 -- I was "proxyserver" before I was banished from Codoh!)

Actually, in regard to Browning's book, it did not refer to the Einsatzgruppen generally, who actually were sent to trial by the Allies at Nuremburg, and many received death sentences, whereas the members of the Reserve Police Battalion 101 were tried by the West German courts in the 1960's ( http://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Rese ... n+browning ), and their activities were confined to Poland, and who received relatively light sentences. Which leads me to believe that it wasn't an option for the defendants to plead not guilty, whereas if they confessed they would receive a relatively light sentence, and I was hoping that someone could provide some information regarding the actual political conditions in which the trial were held, in order to buttress, or not, the "revisionist" case that Browning's book is really based on untruths, and whether my assumption about the trials is correct; for instance, in that Harper Collins link in my original post it is interesting to note, according to Browning, it was not legal for him to actually use the proper names of the defendants in his book, so he had to use pseudonyms, which, of course, certainly would give scope for licence by Browning as to what he wanted to assert.

Heimie
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by Heimie »

I loved Browings book, he nails the evil of the Einsatzgruppen genocidal behavior through his accurate description of Pol Bat 101.

Continued exposure of the evil German agenda during world war 2 is important and Browning is one who has done an excellent job in bringing truthful awareness.

Heime the Jew

neugierig
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by neugierig »

Welcome to the forum, Heimie the Jew (Is it Heimie of Heime, you signed as Heime the Jew).

You have me at an disadvantage re. the Browning book, I have not read it yet, would it therefore be possible for you to expand some? I am for instance interested in what was done to substantiate what is claimed, who investigated following the war, what was found and where are the graves located, in the here and now. In other words, could I go and see the graves?

Thank you for your efforts.

Regards
Wilf
Ohne Meinungsfreiheit gibt es keine Freiheit (frei nach I. Kant)

ralphgordon
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by ralphgordon »

Heimie wrote:I loved Browings book, he nails the evil of the Einsatzgruppen genocidal behavior through his accurate description of Pol Bat 101.

Continued exposure of the evil German agenda during world war 2 is important and Browning is one who has done an excellent job in bringing truthful awareness.

Heime the Jew
I wrote:
...and I was hoping that someone could provide some information regarding the actual political conditions in which the trial were held, in order to buttress, or not, the "revisionist" case that Browning's book is really based on untruths, and whether my assumption about the trials is correct; for instance, in that Harper Collins link in my original post it is interesting to note, according to Browning, it was not legal for him to actually use the proper names of the defendants in his book, so he had to use pseudonyms, which, of course, certainly would give scope for licence by Browning as to what he wanted to assert.
Probably you are naive about the need to factually buttess your arguments, and not just make bald assertions, Heime. So what do you have to say about what I said above? Is that your first post about the "Holocaust"? People will write books about anything, whether factually based or not, if they think it is likely to sell well, and there is quite a captive market, as far as the "Holocaust" is concerned, as regards both "exterminationists" or "deniers". I notice that old "exterminationist" warrior Roberto is at large in the forum so perhaps he will see fit to deal with the Browning issue.

AlistaireCook
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by AlistaireCook »

ralphgordon wrote:http://temporachristiana.wordpress.com/ ... -browning/



http://theredphoenixapl.org/2010/11/19/ ... %E2%80%9D/



As a "denier" of sorts one of my main theoretical problems concerns the above book by Christopher Browning which, as the links above indicates, it is alleged that the men of the 101 Reserve Police Batallion actually carried out massacres of Jews under orders from higher authority. Now, it is indeed the case that the source material for Browning's book was the war crimes trials in Germany during the 1960s, and this is acknowledged.



As a "denier" I would seriously doubt that the Germans would need to deliberately massacre Jews, although I will qualify that. What I think is more likely is that Browning's book is based on lies, particularly in view of the fact that it is the only book that I know of that actually purports to deal with an allegedly concrete example of Jewish genocide. As part of my "Holocaust" reading I know that in these German war crimes trial it was the case that it was quite pointless to assert that one was not guilty of anti-Jewish atrocities, and that the only rational thing to do was to confess to what allegations one was accused of, and, so, in accordance with the German government's formal need to conform to the "exterminationist" narrative, each defendant would only be given a much reduced prison sentence, by comparasion with they would get in they continued to assert that they were not guilty of any atrocities.



However, even if Browning's book is actually true it would not indeed help to substantiate the notion of a Jewish "Holocaust" (i.e. a deliberate Nazi policy to physically exterminate the European Jews), since, what we have at the time of the alleged massacres, is, after the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, is a significant partisan war by both the Poles and the Russians against the Nazi occupiers, who, of course, acted with extreme measures against the partisans, which, in the light of Nazi ideology, identified all Jews with Communism, and so, I would think, that it was quite likely that the Nazis would have carried out massacres against the Jews; however, I would maintain that there is really no concrete evidence of such alleged atrocities against Jews, as it has never been possible to obtain concrete evidence of such massacres since both Polish and Russian governments would never have allowed serious investigations to be carried out. But the main point that I would make is that if there were such massacres of Jews it is simply the case that they were collateral damage in relation to the Nazi suppression of insurgents, and is not evidence of a "Holocaust"; moreover, the notion of Jewish massacres by means of mass shootings in Poland in 1942 onwards contradicts the whole notion of Nazi genocide by means of homicidal gas chambers, as it would have been far easier to dispose of Jews by that means, if technically feasible.



It is probably asking a lot but what I would like to know what are the views of both avowed "exterminationists" and "deniers" to the contents of Browning's book, about which it might be possible to read on the internet,and, in any case there is much material about it. As I say I think it is important as Browning's book is the only one I know of which actually purports to give a concrete example of alleged Nazi genocide.

http://www.harpercollins.com/browseinsi ... 0060995065
Above is a free online edition of Brownings book.

Mr Gordon,
May I ask why you doubt Brownings sources? I mean do you posess some knowledge or insight that infers a lack of credibility in the War crimes trials archives? I"m curious.
Thanks,

AC

Roberto
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by Roberto »

"AlistaireCook" is a an obvious sockpuppet of "Blogbuster".

Moderator, please remove "AlistaireCook" or "Blogbuster" (your choice), and confine the other user to "Siberian Exile".
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

AlistaireCook
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by AlistaireCook »

AlistaireCook wrote:
ralphgordon wrote:http://temporachristiana.wordpress.com/ ... -browning/



http://theredphoenixapl.org/2010/11/19/ ... %E2%80%9D/



As a "denier" of sorts one of my main theoretical problems concerns the above book by Christopher Browning which, as the links above indicates, it is alleged that the men of the 101 Reserve Police Batallion actually carried out massacres of Jews under orders from higher authority. Now, it is indeed the case that the source material for Browning's book was the war crimes trials in Germany during the 1960s, and this is acknowledged.



As a "denier" I would seriously doubt that the Germans would need to deliberately massacre Jews, although I will qualify that. What I think is more likely is that Browning's book is based on lies, particularly in view of the fact that it is the only book that I know of that actually purports to deal with an allegedly concrete example of Jewish genocide. As part of my "Holocaust" reading I know that in these German war crimes trial it was the case that it was quite pointless to assert that one was not guilty of anti-Jewish atrocities, and that the only rational thing to do was to confess to what allegations one was accused of, and, so, in accordance with the German government's formal need to conform to the "exterminationist" narrative, each defendant would only be given a much reduced prison sentence, by comparasion with they would get in they continued to assert that they were not guilty of any atrocities.



However, even if Browning's book is actually true it would not indeed help to substantiate the notion of a Jewish "Holocaust" (i.e. a deliberate Nazi policy to physically exterminate the European Jews), since, what we have at the time of the alleged massacres, is, after the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, is a significant partisan war by both the Poles and the Russians against the Nazi occupiers, who, of course, acted with extreme measures against the partisans, which, in the light of Nazi ideology, identified all Jews with Communism, and so, I would think, that it was quite likely that the Nazis would have carried out massacres against the Jews; however, I would maintain that there is really no concrete evidence of such alleged atrocities against Jews, as it has never been possible to obtain concrete evidence of such massacres since both Polish and Russian governments would never have allowed serious investigations to be carried out. But the main point that I would make is that if there were such massacres of Jews it is simply the case that they were collateral damage in relation to the Nazi suppression of insurgents, and is not evidence of a "Holocaust"; moreover, the notion of Jewish massacres by means of mass shootings in Poland in 1942 onwards contradicts the whole notion of Nazi genocide by means of homicidal gas chambers, as it would have been far easier to dispose of Jews by that means, if technically feasible.



It is probably asking a lot but what I would like to know what are the views of both avowed "exterminationists" and "deniers" to the contents of Browning's book, about which it might be possible to read on the internet,and, in any case there is much material about it. As I say I think it is important as Browning's book is the only one I know of which actually purports to give a concrete example of alleged Nazi genocide.

http://www.harpercollins.com/browseinsi ... 0060995065
Above is a free online edition of Brownings book.

Mr Gordon,
May I ask why you doubt Brownings sources? I mean do you posess some knowledge or insight that infers a lack of credibility in the War crimes trials archives? I"m curious.
Thanks,

AC

Mr. Gordon, I am reposting this note to you because from some reason this other fellow seems hell bent on spamming the forum
AC

Roberto
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Re: Browning's Ordinary Men

Post by Roberto »

AlistaireCook wrote: Mr. Gordon, I am reposting this note to you because from some reason this other fellow seems hell bent on spamming the forum
AC
Moderator knows who is spamming here. Enjoy it while it lasts. Good night.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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