Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Huntinger » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:46 pm

Hans wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:25 pm
The copy of the letter with another "gas-chamber" reference is indeed precious since it contains additional comments by the German Foreign Office on the issue which were not on the letter sent to the representative in Riga.
No one is denying there were gaskammers as indicated in that document; these were for fumigation of clothing and other items. The issue is homicidal gas chambers. If this was a highly secretive SD operation it is most unlikely the foreign office especially to someone in Riga would be privy to it, especially if it relates to mass extermination of people instead of lice. I do not have time but that letter must be put into the correct context. What you are suggeting and all hoaxers do is suggest, is similar to the CIA planning a secret operation say to deal with ISIS in Syria which may result in the deaths of thousands of Syrians and then send a copy of the plans to the US embassy in Australia. This is how bizarre your suggestions appears to be unless the context can be deduced.
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Werd » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:14 am

Copies are fine if other copies are found, and they all bear similar letterheads and unique markings and also if both copies mention they are a copy out of a certain total.

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Werd » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:04 pm

One more.

Red text emphasis mine, not holocaust controversies.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... and28.html
On Mathias Beer's Die Entwicklung der Gaswagen beim Mord an den Juden, Mattogno comments that "this reconstruction [of the Euthanasia], as far as the use of steel cylinders of carbon monoxide for homicidal purposes is concerned, is based exclusively on testimonies". However, there exist numerous documents on carbon monoxide gas in the context of the Euthanasia. Mattogno ignores this evidence in Einsatzgruppen. Was it really too much to consult specialist literature, such as Klee, Euthanasie im NS-Staat (or our blog for that matter)?

Moreover, Mattogno seems to have forgotten that he already knows about the existence of two documents on CO gas cylinders and Euthanasia from Kogon's Nazi Mass Murder, see Figure 1 and here.

The letter by Walther Rauff to the KTI of 26 March 1942 is likewise ignored in this context, although it directly attests the "criminal function" of the KTI. The document is only briefly mentioned in a footnote of a later section, which cites his forgery allegation in Inside the Gas Chambers - refuted on this blog in January and October 2016.

Image
Figure 1: Mattogno's omission of evidence on CO gas cylinders and Euthanasia cited in Kogon's Nazi Mass Murder, he knew earlier (top and right). He also seems to wonder why not doing any research results in not knowing something (left side).


Diagram 2: SK Lange (Killing Commando)

Image

The next topic is the nature of SK Lange. As pointed out in the first part of this series, Mattogno is helplessly confused, does not know about its headquarters and where it was operating in 1941 (not Soldau). On the activity of the commando, he writes something about "real transfer" (p.298) and "the evacuations were real" (p.299).

The only "real" thing is that he has no clue what the commando was doing. It was not a transport enterprise specialized on mentally ill people, as one might decipher his mumbling above.

According to contemporary German documents (mostly ignored by Mattogno), it was a killing commando of the Security Police and Service in the Warthegau to carry out Euthanasia operations.


Sources: Sonderkommando Lange in German Documents: Euthanasia 1940/41


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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Huntinger » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:57 pm

Hans wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:37 pm
Mattogno is a gift that keeps on giving.
How unoriginal. Surely Hans you do not need to repeat the phrase used over at the Silly Forum.
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:09 pm

After Hans's colossal flops in his debate with me about gas vans--see: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2713--I thought we had seen the last of him. Obviously, he is back again which suggests he must be "Jewish."

FPBerg
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Huntinger » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:27 pm

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:09 pm
suggests he must be "Jewish."

FPBerg

Die Herrschaft des Juden wird bald vorbei sein.. the day of the Jew will soon be over.
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Werd » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:25 am

Second paragraph.
Mathias Beer's article Die Entwicklung der Gaswagen beim Mord an den Juden (1987) is a pioneering work on the subject. There are more recent treatments such as in Andrej Angrick's Besatzungspolitik und Massenmord (2003). But despite the fact that it is the standard work on Einsatzgruppe D, Mattogno has never heard of the study in his screed on the Einsatzgruppen.
Both those authors are in the index. Both of those authors are in the bibliography. In fact, the Beer article gets a mention at the bottom of page 334 in Mattogno. Plus it shows up in the bibliography. Granted that particular book by Angrick Hans mentions is not in the bibliography, but other works are.
Beer's figure of six small gas vans dispatched in late 1941 is broken down by Mattogno as "one to Einsatzgruppe C, one to Einsatzgruppe D, two to Chełmno; as regards the remaining two, it is not known to whom they were assigned" (Mattogno, The Einsatzgruppen, p. 309). However, on the same page cited by Mattogno, Beer explains that these "were brought from Berlin to Riga" in December 1941 and were later mentioned in a "writing by the SS-Hauptsturmführer Trühe [BdS Ostland] to Walther Rauff of 15 July [correct: June] 1942", i.e. they had been assigned to Einsatzgruppe A/BdS Ostland

Image
Figure 1:Mattogno's confusion about gas vans assigned to Einsatzgruppe A/BdS Ostland
Translated into English from google.

"Before Christmas 1941, two smaller gas vans were brought from Berlin to Riga. These were the two small "Daimond wagons" which were called in the letter of the SS chief stumbler Trühe to Rauff from 15 July 1942. In the area of ​​the Einsatzgruppe D the existence of a gas car, which could be loaded with approx. 50 persons, attested for end of 1941. These times are also confirmed by the statements of the SS Untersturmführer Becker. He arrived in December 1941 due to a debate between Brack and Himmler for RSHA. According to Himmler pursued the gas car campaign on. In the RSHA he received from Rauff the imposition to drive in the east to check the use of the gas cars.."

What is going on here? Does Mattogno not read German? How can Mattogno on page 309 say that in Beer's article atop page 413, Beer is unclear where the other two vans went. Is Mattogno lazy and not reading his source? Or is he hoping we won't notice?

What else does Hans have to say?
Mattogno argues that "in the best of cases, the [Nazi] documents attest to 2 Diamond 'gas vans' and 4 Saurer: 6 'gas vans'" (p.309). His arithmetic goes as follows:

"2 Saurer vehicles to Einsatzgruppe B" according to the Activity and Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe B of 1 March 1942

"2 Diamond vehicles and 1 Saurer vehicle to Einsatzgruppe B" according to the telex Trühe to Rauff of 15 June 1942 (PS-501)

"1 Saurer vehicle assigned to Einsatzgruppe B" from Belgrad according to the telex Schäfer to Pradel of 9 June 1942 (PS-501).

The sum of this is six gas vans – all to Einsatzgruppe B according to Mattogno's best knowledge (well, that means little as we already know).
Perhaps we need a direct and full quotation.
Carlo Mattogno. The Einsatzgruppen. p. 309

For 1942, from the very few documents adduced by the orthodox Holocaust historiography, PS-501 and the Activity and Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe B for the time period of 16 to 28 February 1942, dated 1 March 1942, supposing that they are authentic and have been interpreted correctly, the following distribution may be deduced:

- 2 Sauer vehicles to Einsatzgruppe B between 1 and 28 February 1942.
- 2 Diamond vehicles and 1 Sauer vehicle to Einsatzgruppe B before 15 June 1942.
- 1 Saurer vehicle promised to Einsatzgruppe B for mid-July 1942.
- 1 Saurer behicle assigned to Einsatzgruppe B on 13 July 1942, which is probably that mentioned in the previous post.

In the best of cases, the documents attest to 2 Diamond "gas vans" and 4 Saurer: 6 "gas vans" out of at least 26. There is no information at all about the remaining 20 vehicles. The question greatly concerns orthodox Holocaust historians, who make aggressive use of trial testimony without any objective confirmation in attempts to supply even the semblance of an answer.
Hmmm. That's 7.
Let's quote from page 309 again.
Carlo Mattogno. The Einsatzgruppen. p. 309

The "gas vans" are said to have been developed essentially in order to facilitate the massacre activities of the Einsatzgruppen, to whom they had been delivered precisely for this purpose. According to Beer, of the six presumed "gas vans" from the "first series" (Diamond trademark) build in 1941, one was assigned to Einsatzgruppe C, one to Einsatzgruppe D, and two to Chelmno (Beer 1987, p.413); in addition to which another thirty "gas vans" from the "second series" (Saurer trademark) are said to have been assigned in 1942, twenty of which are said to ahve been consigned in April (Ibid, p.415), one at Chelmno, and the remainder evidently to the Einsatzgruppen.
Let us consult what appears to be a partial translation in English from HC of this 1 March 1942 document:
Security Police and Security Service

Gr.St.Qu 1 March 1942

Einsatzgruppe B

Secret!

Operation and situation report of the Einsatzgruppe B for the period 16 to 28 February 1942.

[...]

The gas vans, which arrived in Smolensk on 23 February 1942, were allocated as follows:

EK 8: Truck Saurer Pol 71462
EK 9: Truck Saurer Pol 71457

Both vehicles arrived damaged in Smolensk and were given to the Einsatzkommandos after fixing of the damage. Both smaller gas vans will be sent to SK 7a and SK 7b after completing the operation at EK 8.

After subtracting those which were lost, the motor vehicle pool is as follows :

Staff: (including SKM): 19 cars, 4 trucks, 3 special vehicles, 1 motor cycle (SKM 5 cars and 1 radio station)

SK 7a: 19 cars, 2 trucks, 1 ambulance (therof 1 radio station)

SK 7b: 23 cars (thereof 1 radio station), 3 trucks, 1 ambulance

EK 8: 35 cars, 3 trucks, 1 ambulance, 1 gas van

EK 9: 36 cars (therof 1 radio station), 5 trucks, 1 gas van

[...]

Furthermore, it absolutely necessary that on advance all heavy trucks - like repair truck, bus, gas vans and tank wagon - are occupied by 2 drivers.
So what is Hans' point again?
To complete the picture of confusion, he offers yet another variant on p.327, where one reads about "the one large and the two small 'gas vans' mentioned in the report dated 1 March 1942, Einsatzgruppe B". In the Italian edition of the book, it reads correctly "due 'Gaswagen' grandi" (p. 317); this may be either a mistake by the translator or one in an earlier manuscript.
That there's a typo? It must be something else.
The Activity and Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe B of 1 March 1942 does not only mention the two Saurer gas vans, but in addition also two "smaller gas vans", which Mattogno omits.
Are you sure, Hans? That there are four vans being discussed? Let's check again:
EK 8: Truck Saurer Pol 71462
EK 9: Truck Saurer Pol 71457

Both vehicles
arrived damaged in Smolensk and were given to the Einsatzkommandos after fixing of the damage. Both smaller gas vans will be sent to SK 7a and SK 7b after completing the operation at EK 8.
I'm guessing the smaller gas vans WERE those first two mentioned. The EK 8 and the EK 9 one. Hans of course does not agree. While Mattogno does reproduce part of this document about EK 8 and EK 9 trucks at the bottom of 323...
Hans.

...he also quotes the German historian Christian Gerlach that "the two 'smaller gas vans' mentioned there had already been delivered before the delivery of two new ones on 23 Feb" and Mattogno argues himself with these figures that "EK 8 already had two small 'gas vans' and…this means that EK 8 at the time used them in a very intensive manner, so much so that another two, larger, 'gas vans' were needed" (p.326).
But then what are we to make of this in Mattogno?
Carlo Mattogno. The Einsatzgruppen. p. 310

Spektor begins by asserting:
“In the middle of December 1941, three gas vans were brought from Berlin to Riga and put at the disposal of the BdS of the Eastern Territories. There were two small Diamond vans and one large Saurer van.”(Spektor 1993, p. 57
So Diamond is small 1st series.
Saurer is non-small 2nd series.
So Hans would claim that this 1 March 1942 document is speaking of two regular Saurer trucks and two smaller Diamond trucks. Therefore, Hans claims Mattogno can't keep his vans straight.
To complete the picture of confusion, he offers yet another variant on p.327, where one reads about "the one large and the two small 'gas vans' mentioned in the report dated 1 March 1942, Einsatzgruppe B". In the Italian edition of the book, it reads correctly "due 'Gaswagen' grandi" (p. 317); this may be either a mistake by the translator or one in an earlier manuscript.

So depending which page of the same chapter one opens, one gets three contradictory numbers of gas vans (2, 3 or 4) taken from one and the same document (Figure 2).
Image
Figure 2: Mattogno's confusion about the number of gas vans mentioned in one and the same document
Like I said, the previously mentioned typo, may in fact account for the so called "difference" between what Mattogno writes on page 326 and 327 about how many vans there in fact are. People can make mistakes and type something they don't mean to. Now remember this bit that was established earlier:
Diamond is small 1st series.
Saurer is non-small 2nd series.
Diamond is small. Saurer is not small. Thus, let's look at this one again, Hans.
Image
Yes there are smaller vehicles there. They're the Diamond ones. That would mean that on pages 309, 326 and 327, HE IS ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT TWO SMALLER DIAMOND VANS. :lol: Then all he has to do is fix that one red typo I mentioned to bring it in line with the Italian edition and then he has will be consistently mentioning more than one Saurer vehicle and consistently mentioning two smaller (Diamond) vehicles on pages 309, 326 and 327.

Finally, how about we let Mattogno speak for himself in greater detail:

Image
Image
Image

Finally, Hans also says Mattogno has his chronology about which Einsatzgruppe was in Minsk at what time in a bit of confusion.
The next in the row are the three gas vans mentioned in a telex by Trühe to Rauff of 15 June 1942. While Mattogno seems to have mastered the challenge to count from 1 to 3 and got the number right, he is wrong that the gas vans were assigned to "Einsatzgruppe B". The document states the vehicles were stationed at the "Kommandeur der Sipo u. d. SD Weissruthenien", i.e. the Security Police and Service in Minsk. Einsatzgruppe B was displaced from Minsk in 1941 and the area was taken over by units of Einsatzgruppe A, which formed the basis of KdS Minsk. Hence, the three gas vans were not assigned to Einsatzgruppe B, but to the KdS Minsk/BdS Ostland.

How bad the confusion is for Mattogno becomes apparent from the fact that this is a well known fact following from documents and literature on the Einsatzgruppen - including those used by Mattogno himself:

The Ereignismeldung of 25 October 1941 states that the last men of Einsatzkommando 8 of Einsatzgruppe B left Minsk until 3 October 1941. In the following weeks, Einsatzkommando 3 of Einsatzgruppe A was stationed in the town according to the reports. According to Ereignismeldung UdSSR no. 149 of 22 December 1941, the head of Einsatzkommando 2 of Einsatzgruppe A was appointed as "Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD für den Generalbezirk Weißruthenien" in Minsk (Figure 3).

The organisation of the Security Police and Security Service in Minsk is also described in standard works, such as Wilhelm, Die Einsatzgruppe A der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD 1941/42, p.308 and Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde, p.186 – the latter study is cited by him.

Mattogno has written a full book on the activities of the Security Police and Security Service in the East - but knows less about it on such basic thing than anybody browsing Wikipedia.

Image
Figure 3: Mattogno's confusion about Einsatzgruppe B and KdS Minsk


His final figure is one Saurer gas van sent to Riga from Belgrad for service in Minsk in July 1942. As above, he is wrong to state that the vehicle was "assigned to Einsatzgruppe B" since it was likewise to be operated by the BdS Ostland/KdS Minsk.
In summary:
1. Mattogno made a mistake on page 309 of his book when he said that in the Mathias Beer article on page 413, there were two vans that nobody knew where they want. Beer clearly stated where they want. Mattogno either didn't see it, or he did but ignored it and didn't care.
2. Mattogno made a slight addition mistake further down page 309 and should have come away with 7 vans.
3. There is a typo/discrepancy between the English and Italian editions apparently that Hans pointed out, which would account for what seems to be a series of contradictions between pages 309, 326 and 327 about how many vans, big or small, are getting mentioned in a consistent manner or not.
4. Mattogno has his chronology about Einsatzgruppe A and Einsatzgruppe B mixed up regarding when each was actually present in Minsk.

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Huntinger » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:58 am

Werd why would the Action squads use gas vans when it would be so much simpler to just shoot them. It seems a rather stupid way for SUMMARY execution. I think the gas van idea might have been tried to get rid of political prisoners from jail to jail by the Soviets. Polish Political Prisoners disappeared and the deaths were held to be accidental. I think this was the only reason for the "gas vans"; this was for political intelligence assassinations and nothing about the allgeged Holocaust. For those who wish evidence of this please take the time to read the book "Warsaw Boy"by the goyim lad Andrew Borowiec who mentioned that such methods were used by the Soviets. The Soviets arrested and tortured Polish Nationalist who fought the armed services of the Reich; responsible for the Warsaw uprising (not the Jude Ghetto) and put to death the leaders. The Soviets were no Liberators but the scum of the Earth by all accounts. If the US did not develop atomic weapons everyone now would be calling each other Comrade. Herr Hitler and the National Socialists he led died for the world. It seems that Andrzej came into contact with the forces of Oskar Dirlewanger. We are reserving our opinion on this honoured man at the moment, but from all accounts his soldaten were brutal to the extreme; the Waffen SS were kittens by comparison.
Hail Victory
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