Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

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Werd
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Werd » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:20 am

It has been claimed that the decision was made to switch to gas vans because it was easier on the German soldiers to not have to directly murder a bunch of people with guns. Not every German signed up to become a cold blooded killer. They thought it would be easier to load them into a van, gas them and just dump them like cargo.
viewtopic.php?p=141587#p141587

And allegedly, the Germans were already experimenting with using homicidal gas vans to murder the mentally retarded as far back as 1940.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... and28.html
The genesis of the Einsatzgruppen gas vans can be traced back to Fort VII in Posen. Here, the Nazis conducted mass gassing experiments for the Euthanasia action in Winter 1939/40. One branch developed to stationary gas chambers in the Altreich, the other developed to a gas van in the Warthegau, both types operating with carbon monoxide (CO) from gas cylinders. A killing commando of the Gestapo Posen, Sonderkommando (SK) Lange, employed the CO gas van. The war against the Soviet Union with its extermination policy pushed the development of a new mass killing technique since the mass shooting of people not fit for military service posed a considerable strain on the German paramilitary forces. The method had to fit the use in the wide Russian territory. The carbon monoxide gas cylinders already in use were considered not suitable for logistic reasons. In September 1941, gassing with engine exhaust was tried on a large scale in mental asylums in Minsk and Mogilev, followed by the testing of a prototype gas van with engine exhaust.

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Hans » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:02 pm

Werd wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:25 am
Second paragraph.
Mathias Beer's article Die Entwicklung der Gaswagen beim Mord an den Juden (1987) is a pioneering work on the subject. There are more recent treatments such as in Andrej Angrick's Besatzungspolitik und Massenmord (2003). But despite the fact that it is the standard work on Einsatzgruppe D, Mattogno has never heard of the study in his screed on the Einsatzgruppen.
Both those authors are in the index. Both of those authors are in the bibliography. In fact, the Beer article gets a mention at the bottom of page 334 in Mattogno. Plus it shows up in the bibliography. Granted that particular book by Angrick Hans mentions is not in the bibliography, but other works are.
Werd, Angrick's book is not just some book, it is the most comprehensive study on Einsatzgruppe D. What was Mattogno's book about again? Something with Einsatzgruppen maybe? And Angrick's book is not only on Einsatzgruppe D, it includes also a more recent and detailed account on the gas vans. Now, any new study has to build upon the latest state of knowledge and research. Mattogno has it quite the other way round. He addresses out-dated or non-specialist literature on the gas vans. So even if he were correct on those (he is not, but for the sake of argument), it would be of limited value already for this reason.

It's just as if one claims to debunk Holocaust denial on Auschwitz, but only addresses say Stäglich, but ignore Mattogno (well, I didn't).

Yes there are smaller vehicles there. They're the Diamond ones. That would mean that on pages 309, 326 and 327, HE IS ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT TWO SMALLER DIAMOND VANS. :lol: Then all he has to do is fix that one red typo I mentioned to bring it in line with the Italian edition and then he has will be consistently mentioning more than one Saurer vehicle and consistently mentioning two smaller (Diamond) vehicles on pages 309, 326 and 327.
Nope, it's not that easy.

The two smaller Diamond gas vans are from one of the telexes in PS-501 (discussed later in the blog posting). We are talking here about the report of Einsatzgruppe B of 1 March 1942. This report mentions four gas vans, two Saurer and two smaller ones (not necessarily Diamond T chassis). The two Saurer had recently arrived damaged, were repaired and assigned to EK 8 and 9. The two smaller gas vans were both stationed at EK 8 and to be assigned to SK 7a and SK 7b after finishing their ongoing task. There is no evidence that those two smaller gas vans are identical to those Diamond mentioned in the telex in PS-501 (both are about different agencies anyway, even if Mattogno is ignorant about this, next point in the blog posting), therefore "in the best of cases" - which Mattogno claims to have considered - they have to be added to those from PS-501.

In fact, I just see that Mattogno even mentions the figure of eight gas vans according to the report and the telexes in PS-501 ("By mid-July, it therefore is said the have had at least eight of them at its disposal", p. 327). But then if he was even well aware of this counting based on German documents, which he cannot refute, it is even more inexplicable why he ignored the two smaller ones from the EG B report in his "best case" arithmetic. It's just as if one brain cell forgot what the other was thinking some pages earlier.
2. Mattogno made a slight addition mistake further down page 309 and should have come away with 7 vans.
Your 7th van is a phantom. The gas van promised to the BdS Ostland is not an additional gas van, but the same as the one which returned from its gassing action at the BdS Serbien. The proper number of gas vans according to Nazi documents is illustrated here.

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Hans » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:48 pm

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:58 am
Werd why would the Action squads use gas vans when it would be so much simpler to just shoot them.
Can you imagine that individually shooting Jewish women, children and elderly and mentally ill people en masse was not exactly a pleasant and mentally healthy exercise, also for Nazis (psychopaths and masochists aside) and even more so for average police men? The Nazi leaders feared after their experiences in 1941 that their extermination campagn was breeding too many mentally deranged among the shooters as well as witnesses. It was not about what was more simple, but what was considered in sum the lesser burden and also what was easier to conceal (by the way, also interesting: What's There to Hide? Camouflage and Secrecy of Nazi Extermination Sites )

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Huntinger » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:14 pm

Hans wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:48 pm
Huntinger wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:58 am
Werd why would the Action squads use gas vans when it would be so much simpler to just shoot them.
Can you imagine that individually shooting Jewish women, children and elderly and mentally ill people en masse was not exactly a pleasant and mentally healthy exercise, also for Nazis (psychopaths and masochists aside) and even more so for average police men? The Nazi leaders feared after their experiences in 1941 that their extermination campagn was breeding too many mentally deranged among the shooters as well as witnesses. It was not about what was more simple, but what was considered in sum the lesser burden and also what was easier to conceal (by the way, also interesting: What's There to Hide? Camouflage and Secrecy of Nazi Extermination Sites )
It never seemed to worry the Baltic Field Police shooting Partizani from all accounts. This was reported in the memoirs by Alex Kurzem from Belarus. Kurzem claimed that his parents were Solomon Galperin and Chana Gildenberg, who were Jewish. On October 21, 1941, Gildenberg and her son and daughter were murdered along with approximately 1,600 other Russian Jews in Koidanov (now Dzyarzhynsk) by Latvian Field Police. Many people thought these Baltic Police Battalians were SS which they were eventually as the war progressed. There are accounts in his memoirs of other Baltic Police atrocities, not the least of Jude being burned in a Synogogue at Slutsk. Here the Baltic Police were Lithuanians but the Secret State Police have also been blamed. Obviously the Baltic cops had no need for gas vans, they just wanted Bolshevik Partizani.
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Hans » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:45 pm

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:14 pm
Hans wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:48 pm
Huntinger wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:58 am
Werd why would the Action squads use gas vans when it would be so much simpler to just shoot them.
Can you imagine that individually shooting Jewish women, children and elderly and mentally ill people en masse was not exactly a pleasant and mentally healthy exercise, also for Nazis (psychopaths and masochists aside) and even more so for average police men? The Nazi leaders feared after their experiences in 1941 that their extermination campagn was breeding too many mentally deranged among the shooters as well as witnesses. It was not about what was more simple, but what was considered in sum the lesser burden and also what was easier to conceal (by the way, also interesting: What's There to Hide? Camouflage and Secrecy of Nazi Extermination Sites )
It never seemed to worry the Baltic Field Police shooting Partizani from all accounts. This was reported in the memoirs by Alex Kurzem from Belarus. Kurzem claimed that his parents were Solomon Galperin and Chana Gildenberg, who were Jewish. On October 21, 1941, Gildenberg and her son and daughter were murdered along with approximately 1,600 other Russian Jews in Koidanov (now Dzyarzhynsk) by Latvian Field Police. Many people thought these Baltic Police Battalians were SS which they were eventually as the war progressed. There are accounts in his memoirs of other Baltic Police atrocities, not the least of Jude being burned in a Synogogue at Slutsk. Here the Baltic Police were Lithuanians but the Secret State Police have also been blamed. Obviously the Baltic cops had no need for gas vans, they just wanted Bolshevik Partizani.
The Higher SS and Police Leader Central Russia Erich von dem Bach-Zewelski had suffered under a "nervous state of exhaustion...from pictures in connection with the shooting of Jews supervised by himself", according to a report of the Reichsarzt SS Ernst-Robert Grawitz to Heinrich Himmler of 4 March 1942. According to Albert Hartl, head of the RSHA office IV B on ideological enemies and "visitor" of Einsatzgruppe C, the group's head Max Thomas explained to him that people assigned to the shooting squads developed "the worst sadistic drives" or suffered from "hysterical crying" and "health breakdown" (sources see here).

Do you think the Germans were just too weak or took that mental stuff too serious?

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Huntinger » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:51 pm

It was not only the SS leaders that suffered. According to the memoirs of Andrzej Borowiec, Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski SS-Obergruppenführer suffered a nervous breakdown. (Warsaw Boy, p212). Bach was convinced that Poles or Western Slavs were not Untermensch. Bach stopped the summary execution of civilians by Durlewangers; however, the Russians made up propaganda stories against both he and Heinz Reinefarth,SS-Gruppenführer, Generalleutnant der Waffen-SS und der Polizei.
Borowiec goes on to speak of the atrocities of the NKVD on jude and anyone they considered to be enemies of the "Motherland" and considering the 40 thousand deaths at the time of the Katyn Massacre nothing at all would or could be put past them. Due to the actions at Slutsk and Koidanov which is denied by the SS and Schutzmannschaft 18 on October 27th 1941. Wiki says
On October 27, 1941, four companies of military police stationed in Kaunas entered the city with the assignment of liquidating the city's Jewish population within two days. This "special security operation" was led by the Einsatzgruppen (death squads) of the SS, and acted without authorization from the local German civil administration and Security SS authorities that had marshaled various specialized workers from the population. It was not only Jude that were murdered. The German civil administration in Belarus was outraged, after having made great efforts to gain the favor of the local population in accordance with the instructions of the Führer..
Some things in Kurzems memoirs do not make sense, for instance Police arrive at night hitting his mother and scaring the hell out of her which gives him the idea he should escape, not bad for a 5 year old. Apparently due to a thunder storm all of the people to be executed were told to go home and come back the next day which they apparently did but this could just be the mistaken thoughts of a kid. Borowiec also has inconsistencies due to the fact that at least 20 times he refers to the SS men he is fighting as wearing "black" uniforms, when we all know that the colour was a grey green. However, the point is that due to the massacre at Slutsk, the effect of indiscriminate mass killing was to turn the Belarus population against their German occupiers. To be honest this smacks of an NKVD operation.
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by DabbingIsSoMuchFun » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:10 pm

The whole book is an error unto itself.


(BTW, shout out to the BASED Hans for BTFOing Holocaust Denial)
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Huntinger » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:55 pm

DabbingIsSoMuchFun wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:10 pm
The whole book is an error unto itself.


(BTW, shout out to the BASED Hans for BTFOing Holocaust Denial)
This is highly unlikely. Most of the alleged atrocities seem to appear when the Dirlewanger brigade are nearby. To make a global stance like you have done has made you act Jude like, someone with a purpose on a mission which nicely fits in with your "goal". You are also off task, which is a warning and off topic; perhaps an attempt to derail the thread for your own subterranean purposes or probably lack of purpose. If I were you I would ignore threads you do not like rather than give gross generalizations which no one is interested in.
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Werd » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:09 pm

Let's look at a wider shot of 326 to see him discuss the 1 March 1942 Activity and Situation Report.
In this context, it is important to stress that the license number of the vehicle mentioned in the "memo" dated 13 July 1942 ("The S van Pol 71463 is read and is to be sent to Riga with driver" [272]) no doubt belonged to the series of "gas vans" mentioned in the Activity and Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe B for the time period 16 to 28 February 1942 dated 1 March 1942: Pol 71462 and Pol 71457 were therefore in all probability just Generatorgaswagen.

Returning to the document in question, the simple presence of the term "gas van" proves nothing about the nature and purpose of these vehicles. How were they used?

Gerlach understands that "the two 'smaller gas vans' mentioned there had already been delivered before the delivery of two new ones on 23 Feb, and was also quite evidently present before the beginning of the reporting period on 14 Feb." (Gerlach 1999, fn 1435, p. 765). Therefore, EK 8 already had two small "gas vans" and, if these could only be assigned to SK 7a and 7b "after finalization of their deployment," this means that EK 8 at the time used them in a very intensive manner, so much that another two, larger, "gas vans" were needed.

The Activity and Situation Report of 1 March 1942 should therefore have taken account of this intensive use. In reality, those who adduce this documents as proof of the real existence and deployment of homicidal "gas vans" always forget that the report also mentions the executions carried out by Einsatzkommando 8 and 9, but they do not contain the slightest reference to "gas vans."
Let's look at what Mattogno said on page 327.
We need to keep in mind that, according to the orthodox Holocaust historiography, apart from the one large and two small "gas vans" mentioned in the report dated 1 March 1942, Einsatzgruppe B is said to have received another two Diamond vehicles and one Saurer vehicle prior to 15 June 1942, and at least one more Saurer vehicle on 13 July. By mid-July, it therefore is said to have had at least eight of them at its disposal.
There is Mattogno saying that the 1 March 1942 document mentions ONE large and TWO small vans on page 327. However, what this does mean is that when you look on page 323, you actually see Mattogno quote part of this 1 March 1942 document.
The gas vans which arrived in Smolensk on 23 Feb. 42 were distributed as follows:

EK 8: Saurer Truck Pol 71462
EK 9: Saurer Truck Pol 71457

Both vehicles arrived at Smolensk in defective condition and were assigned to the Einsatzkommandos after eliminating the defects.

The two smaller gas vans will be transferred to SK 7a and SK7b after finalization of their deployment at EK 8.
We must ask why Mattogno says on page 327 that there is one large and two small gas vans, when clearly there looks to be TWO larger gas vans? I.E. Saurer Truck Pol 71462 and Saurer Truck Pol 71457.Let's see the rest of the document in English that I got from HC.
After subtracting those which were lost, the motor vehicle pool is as follows :

Staff: (including SKM): 19 cars, 4 trucks, 3 special vehicles, 1 motor cycle (SKM 5 cars and 1 radio station)

SK 7a: 19 cars, 2 trucks, 1 ambulance (therof 1 radio station)

SK 7b: 23 cars (thereof 1 radio station), 3 trucks, 1 ambulance

EK 8: 35 cars, 3 trucks, 1 ambulance, 1 gas van

EK 9:: 36 cars (therof 1 radio station), 5 trucks, 1 gas van
Hans, there appears to be a contradiction between what the quoted document says on page 323, and how Mattogno summarizes its contents on page 327. We can fix the typo on page 327 mentioned earlier...
To complete the picture of confusion, he offers yet another variant on p.327, where one reads about "the one large and the two small 'gas vans' mentioned in the report dated 1 March 1942, Einsatzgruppe B". In the Italian edition of the book, it reads correctly "due 'Gaswagen' grandi" (p. 317); this may be either a mistake by the translator or one in an earlier manuscript.
Then once we bring page 327 in line with 326 and 323, all supposed "contradictions" will disappear about the Sauer vans.
Carlo Mattogno. The Einsatzgruppen. p. 309

The "gas vans" are said to have been developed essentially in order to facilitate the massacre activities of the Einsatzgruppen, to whom they had been delivered precisely for this purpose. According to Beer, of the six presumed "gas vans" from the "first series" (Diamond trademark) build in 1941, one was assigned to Einsatzgruppe C, one to Einsatzgruppe D, and two to Chelmno (Beer 1987, p.413); in addition to which another thirty "gas vans" from the "second series" (Saurer trademark) are said to have been assigned in 1942, twenty of which are said to ahve been consigned in April (Ibid, p.415), one at Chelmno, and the remainder evidently to the Einsatzgruppen.
So Diamond is small 1st series. Saurer is non-small 2nd series.
Hans wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:02 pm
There is no evidence that those two smaller gas vans are identical to those Diamond mentioned in the telex in PS-501
Remember that on 309 he is clearly talking about the 1 March Activity report. And on 309, we are told that Diamond vans are smaller vans. And on 326 and 327, you admit Mattogno is talking about this same 1 March Activity report and mentioning two smaller vans. So why wouldn't those Diamond vehicles on 309 where the 1 March activity report is discussed, be the same small ones on 326 and 327 where the same 1 March activity report is discussed? Especially given what page 310 told us Diamond trucks were smaller ones. Do you dispute this because the line that the Diamond Trucks are mentioned on (page 309) has the month June in it? June is after February of course. On the other hand look at this line from 1 March report.
The two smaller gas vans will be transferred to SK 7a and SK7b after finalization of their deployment at EK 8.
And this from page 326.
Image
So they were already in use at EK 8 when the report was written. Hmmmm. So what are we to make of the 309 line about Diamond vans and June. That two OTHER vans that were small and Diamond were going to be given to Einsatzgruppe B before the end of June - in addition to the two smaller vans they already had in late February as per the 1 March report? Mattogno and Rudolf will have to answer for this issue about the Diamond/small vans and June and February. It does seem very convoluted.


As for your final comment in the article Hans, this is my response: :?

Image

When Mattogno says, "In the best of cases, the documents attest to 2 Diamond "gas vans" and 4 Saurer: 6 gas vans out of at least 26," he clearly means "the documents" which are only talking about Einsatzgruppe B. Look at all the times he says Einsatzgruppe B on page 309. He doesn't mention any other Einsatzgruppe. You know why? Because he's talking about the Activity Report from 1 March 1942 that is only talking about Einsatzgruppe B. So why are you throwing A, C and D into the mix as if it's a problem for Mattogno when he hasn't even finished his discussion about Einsatzgruppe B? As for why Mattogno bothered to include PS-501 on page 309 on his discussion of Einsatzgruppe B, it must be because a particular van mentioned in PS-501 WAS at one point used in B, but later went to A.

In summary:
1. Mattogno made a mistake on page 309 of his book when he said that in the Mathias Beer article on page 413, there were two vans that nobody knew where they want. Beer clearly stated where they want. Mattogno either didn't see it, or he did but ignored it and didn't care.
2. There is a typo/discrepancy between the English and Italian editions apparently that Hans pointed out, which would erase any contradictions about Saurer van numbers between pages 323, 326 and 327. But there is still an unresolved issue with the "smaller vans".
3. Mattogno has his chronology about Einsatzgruppe A and Einsatzgruppe B mixed up regarding when each was actually present in Minsk.
Last edited by Werd on Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:46 am, edited 44 times in total.

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by DabbingIsSoMuchFun » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:47 pm

Huntinger wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:55 pm
DabbingIsSoMuchFun wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:10 pm
The whole book is an error unto itself.


(BTW, shout out to the BASED Hans for BTFOing Holocaust Denial)
This is highly unlikely. Most of the alleged atrocities seem to appear when the Dirlewanger brigade are nearby. To make a global stance like you have done has made you act Jude like, someone with a purpose on a mission which nicely fits in with your "goal". You are also off task, which is a warning and off topic; perhaps an attempt to derail the thread for your own subterranean purposes or probably lack of purpose. If I were you I would ignore threads you do not like rather than give gross generalizations which no one is interested in.


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