Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

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Werd
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book

Post by Werd » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:13 pm

Here's a recent exchange from page 42 on skepticforum.
Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:19 pm

Still nothing at Codoh on Mattogno's book or the HC critiques: is the thing a flop even with revisionists?

At the same time, on a tangent, I've been wondering what Werd, Huntinger/Trolljerkoff, and been-there make of Semelin's book on responses of French Jews to their persecution during the war . . .
Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 am

Werd apparently tried to start two threads there yesterday. One was denied publication by moderation as of last night.
Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:13 am

Aha, thanks. Maybe Werd should try Semelin?
Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:34 am

Sure, he should. But... asking ain't getting, as the saying goes...
They must mean either this book:

The Survival of the Jews in France, 1940 - 44 by Jacques Semelin
https://global.oup.com/academic/product ... ca&lang=en&

Frankie
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book

Post by Frankie » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:16 pm

Yet it's no surprise that there is nothing in Werd's petty 'critiques' which proves that 'the Einsatzgruppen killed 2,000,000 Jews', which IS the claim that Werd dodges, of course, and Mattogno obliterates.

Werd's desperate, scraping-the-botton-of-the-barrel personal agenda is much ado about nothing regarding the true contents of Mattogno's book. In fact, the always cool Germar Rudolf has referred to Werd-the-troll as "a fool". Werd doesn't like that, we see the results.

There you have it.

I hope everyone is having the best of new years.

Werd
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book

Post by Werd » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:36 pm

Frankie wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:16 pm
Yet it's no surprise that there is nothing in Werd's petty 'critiques' which proves that 'the Einsatzgruppen killed 2,000,000 Jews', which IS the claim that Werd dodges, of course, and Mattogno obliterates.

Werd's desperate, scraping-the-botton-of-the-barrel personal agenda is much ado about nothing regarding the true contents of Mattogno's book. In fact, the always cool Germar Rudolf has referred to Werd-the-troll as "a fool". Werd doesn't like that, we see the results.

There you have it.

I hope everyone is having the best of new years.
Well if Rudolf has called me "a fool" in emails to other people, I do not know the circumstances. He may have done it recently to another party when I told him about blake's critique of Mattogno and then said I thought blake may have a point. That's fine. I already admitted to Rudolf I was no expert in this field and I would post his critiques that he emailed me if he wanted to make them public.

If that's not the context of Rudolf calling me a "fool" It could be this issue that Frankie is talking about.
viewtopic.php?p=119923#p119923
2nd last post at the bottom of the page
And finally this post.
viewtopic.php?p=120488#p120488
Well I already apologized to Rudolf. He accepted it and said let's just move on. Rudolf has every right to call me a fool over that. Because I was. Frankie can beat that dead horse all he wants.

Frankie is letting slip the reason why the critiques of Mattogno are being thwarted on codoh at every turn. They are saying his errors don't matter to the overall thesis of the book. Maybe so. But that doesn't mean certain errors aren't worth fixing IN ORDER TO MAKE IT BETTER so that HC shuts their mouths. What's funny is that codoh tried to run interference when GROSS ERRORS Mattogno made about the 2nd Jaeger Report that showed up in his Italian book. Once again, they don't like huge mistakes being made note of when it comes to their favourite authors. They have taken it upon themselves to protect their God. Which is lame. So what am I to take away from this? That the cheerleaders on codoh are perfectly fine with holocaust handbooks containing easily fixable errors? Is that really it? I hope not. I can assure them that GERMAR RUDOLF surely doesn't want errors to go without fixing. That's why 2nd and 3rd editions of some books have been published. As well as new research coming in that merely strengthens their position. So CODOH can quit grandstanding and drop their faux outrage when someone exposes errors in a book that need fixing.

Let's just say that after I sent him the link to this topic and emailed a quick summary of the issue covered in each post, he responded saying he was "slightly miffed" with Mattogno for something. That's all I will reveal. The rest is between him and Mattogno. The only reason those two have emailed me in the past is because they know I don't reveal what I'm not supposed to. Jurgen Graf knows this as well. That is why he gave me permission to reveal certain things he wanted to. Like how Thomas Kues was scared out of doing revisionist research though not personally giving up those ideas intellectually. The idea that Rudolf is upset at me for daring to do all the reading and copying and pasting I did is pure nonsense. He thanked me and said a second edition would be made later with all of those things fixed and explained. Especially the flip flop on the true sources of the Aufbau article between language editions. That error pointed out by Hans had me rolling my eyes and then laughing my ass off.

JsonM
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book

Post by JsonM » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:08 pm

Frankie wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:16 pm
which proves that 'the Einsatzgruppen killed 2,000,000 Jews', which IS the claim that Werd dodges, of course,
Where did he claim that? Link please.

Werd
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book

Post by Werd » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:21 pm

I don't think Frankie is saying I am arguing that number to be correct. He is simply saying I am dodging the claim and not meeting it head on. Well since I have posted the Reynouard/Verbeke videos on the Einsatzgruppen on rodoh many times, I obviously don't believe that number.

However, once on codoh, I was accused of believing in literal disappearance of human remains because that is apparently how the English rendering of someone named Leon Wieliczker came out. I clarified what I suspected he meant and that THAT reformulation by me would be the only rational thing to believe in.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=90189#p90189
Hannover then claimed that I probably believed in the Soviet bone grinding machine.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=90191#p90191
I then said no I didn't and that I possess the paperback copy of "Inconvenient History" containing the article that refutes that propaganda.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=90192#p90192

JsonM
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book

Post by JsonM » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:44 pm

You are right. I am used of strawmanning like the example shown in your link.

Werd
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book

Post by Werd » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:14 pm

Werd wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:49 pm
I made a post about recent upcoming holocaust handbooks AFTER I tried to post those two topics and my post got approved. However I got a notice about the chapter 6.2 topic I tired to make:
"Einsatzgruppen book errors. Part 1. Chapter 6.2"

Reason: The message contains links to illegal or pirated software. You're over the place, be specific and title your thread accordingly.
Pirated software? Hahaha. All I have posted in that particular post besides my text are

1. Images hosted here
https://i.ibb.co/
2. Links to holocaustcontroversies.
3. Link to yadvashem.org
4. Link to https://portal.ehri-project.eu/
5. Images from HC articles hosted at links like this.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UG_sR7_WHHU/ ... /00054.JPG

Nothing is pirated. Mattogno's book is free online so the images from his book I pasted can't be violating some sort of piracy law. Is he talking about the images from yad vashem digital archives of some pages of the English translation of von dem Bach-Zelewski's statement that HC put in their article? The pages from an undated declaration of von dem Bach-Zelewski, YVA, O.18/90, p. 52-55.? That's forbidden on codoh? Come on... :roll: I sure hope that's not the flimsy pretext for banning my post. If THAT it the offending part, all they have to do is TELL ME and I will REMOVE them from the codoh post and just leave in the HC article text that is hyperlinked. Then my main point can remain. Why the change between English and Italian editions about what Mattogno's thinks the authors of the Aufbau article used as their primary source before they allegedly filled in the blanks and used poetic license?
[...]
Frankie's response was:
Frankie wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:16 pm
Yet it's no surprise that there is nothing in Werd's petty 'critiques' which proves that 'the Einsatzgruppen killed 2,000,000 Jews', which IS the claim that Werd dodges, of course, and Mattogno obliterates.

Werd's desperate, scraping-the-botton-of-the-barrel personal agenda is much ado about nothing regarding the true contents of Mattogno's book. In fact, the always cool Germar Rudolf has referred to Werd-the-troll as "a fool". Werd doesn't like that, we see the results.

There you have it.

I hope everyone is having the best of new years.


Well I have just been informed by Hans that the Yad Vashem collection has put these files up on line for FREE! Click here.
Then scroll down a bit and click on the image next to the phrase 1-scanned file. And it comes up!

So it's for free. Nothing is pirated. So codoh is FULL OF SHIT ONCE AGAIN.

Werd
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Werd » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 pm

https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 37#p691637
Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:47 am

Mattogno’s book is still being ignored, or discussion of it censored, at Codoh.
They wanted a suck-fest at codoh. As in sucking up to the book. I wouldn't give it to them. I don't need to praise the parts I agree with - which is nearly all of it. What would be the point? My attempts to discuss the problems of this first edition (that Rudolf assured me would be corrected to make a stronger 2nd edition in the future), minor as they were to the overall correct revisionist thesis of Mattogno, were REBUFFED with lame excuses and lies at every turn. So I gave up trying.

Werd
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Werd » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 pm

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... and19.html
Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part V: Nazi Foreign Office Documents vs. Holocaust Denial
Author: Hans Metzner
Monday, January 21, 2019

In mid-May 1943, the German Foreign office was troubled by a story that the Generalkommissar for Weissruthenien, Wilhelm Kube, showed an Italian delegation of fascists "a gas chamber in which the killing of the Jews was allegedly carried out" in Minsk. It was a mobile "gas chamber", since only gas vans are known to have operated in Minsk (see also here).

It does not come as a surprise that Mattogno has been forced to doubt the authenticity of this German document because it challenges his firm belief in Holocaust denial. Since there are no rational grounds to consider the note by Eberhard von Thadden on the "gas chamber" in Minsk a forgery, he has been compelled to make up stuff like this:
"What is rather dubious, on the other hand, is the authenticity of the signature. Von Thadden usually signed his letters with the initials 'vTh' (followed by the date, day and month), while the signature of the note in question is by a different hand and is a rather clumsy attempted imitation – or reconstruction of von Thadden’s signature."

(Mattogno, The Einsatzgruppen in den Occupied Eastern Territories, p. 329-330)
In the associated footnote, he cites from Braham's The Politics of Genocide (1981) examples of von Thadden's alleged "true signature". He also refers to his own remarks in the Italian edition of Mattogno/Graf/Kues' The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhardt" (online here, p. 552; page numbers apparently do not correspond to the printed edition).

Mattogno starts straight away with a wrong reference. The documents he cites are not from Braham, The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary (1981) but from Braham, The Destruction of Hungarian Jewry (1963), an entirely different book (see Figure 1).

Image
Figure 1: Mattogno confusing his own source

The examples, which are supposed to show that "von Thadden usually signed his letters with the initials 'vTh'", are not letters signed by von Thadden. The documents are a submission for telegrams and a comment. The initials on the documents are not von Thadden's signature but, well, just his initials. It is bloody obvious for anybody who has studied documents of German bureaucracy that initials followed by the date are a so-called Paraphe. It could mean approval, notice, certification, indication, but it was not a formal and legal signature. In 1992, the German Federal Supreme Court commented that "lettering that appears as a deliberate and intended name abbreviation (hand mark, initials) does not represent a formal signature".

Now, the very same book, from which he cites the documents with Paraphe (initials), also contains numerous documents actually signed by von Thadden. What he has so confidently declared as written "by a different hand" and "rather clumsy attempted imitation – or reconstruction of von Thadden’s signature" is actually his real signature. This arrogance is only trumped in the Italian edition of Mattogno/Graf/Kues, where he adds that "there is no need for an expert calligrapher to see that the first signature comes from a different hand" (see Figure 2).

Image
Figure 2: Mattogno confusing a signature with initials

An expert calligrapher, or in fact anyone less obsessed with negating Nazi atrocities, could have saved him from doubting the authenticity of a signature because confusing it with the persons' initials. One can really observe here how Mattogno is making up stuff just for the purpose of denying the Holocaust. He would have unlikely confused this if it were not for dismissing evidence on gas vans. He has seen too many German documents to pretend that he did not know about such practice.

Mattogno is evidently unable to take a reasonable look at the evidence as soon as it is on Nazi mass murder. Any troublesome piece of evidence seems to have the effect on him that it suddenly turns off any residual knowledge, common sense and logic which may be left in his brain.

On the trip of the Italian fascists to Minsk, Mattogno states that "there is no trace of any record of the presumed visit to Minsk itself by any Italian fascist delegation" (p.330). Will Mattogno never ever understand that not known to him usually only means that he has not really looked for it? (feel free to ask Major Pradel, SS-Untersturmführer Ernst and Josef Spacil or Obersturmführer Huhn)

On 7 October 1942, Vidussoni was flown to Hitler's headquarters in Vinnytsia. According to a note of the German Foreign Office from the day later, Vidussoni reported "on the strong experience which for him meant visiting the Italian troops on the eastern front" (Akten zur Deutschen Auswärtigen Politik, Serie E, Band 4, 1975, p.41).

Image
Figure 3: Mattogno confusing his ignorance with knowledge that something did not happen

Vidussoni also wrote a report of the trip for Mussolini (dated 24 October 1942) and explained what he had observed on the Nazi policy towards the Jews:
"An absolute rigour is manifested in regard to the Jews, severely treated and subject to restrictions of all kinds, even if there are those who work. I have been told by Italians living in those territories and sometimes even by the Germans in the mood for confidence, that shootings are at the order of the day and also [concerns] large groups of people of all ages and sexes. In Minsk, at the Opera House, we have seen the stuff of thousands and thousands of Jews murdered and it seems to be distributed to the population. They use, they say, only those who can work and until their physical exhaustion. What has most affected the Italians is the way of killing, to which, moreover, it seems that the victims resigned themselves. The population of entire towns and villages has been decimated by as much as a third or a half, in particular because of the elimination of the Jews."
(ACS, SPD-CR 1922-1943, 50/fasc. Aldo Vidussoni, quoted from Schlemmer, Die Italiener an der Ostfront 1942/43, p. 173; my translation; Italian text available online here)

The description corresponds well to von Thadden's note that "on occasion of a visit by Fascist representatives in Minsk Gauleiter Kube had also shown a church that had been used by the Communists for worldly purposes. Asked by the Italians what the little parcels and suitcases piled up there meant, Kube had explained that these were the only leftovers of Jews deported to Minsk".

[...]

On the "gas-chamber" note from von Thadden, Mattogno argues "there is no trace of it in the documentation published by the archives of the German Foreign Office (cf. Rothfels 1978 and 1979), whence the document in question should have originated" (p.330; but writes in the footnote that "Browning (1978, fn 21, p. 249) indicates precisely the following archive reference: 'PA [= Politisches Archiv des Auswärtigen Amtes]. Inland II g 169 a, Thadden memorandum, 15 May 1943. T120/K781/K209619.'").

T120/K781/K209619 is not a reference to the original file but to its microfilm at the US National Archives. I don't know about the editorial decision not to include the note in the selected collection of Foreign Office files. But Mattogno could have easily learned about the whereabouts of the document if he just enquired at the Political Archives of the Foreign Office in Berlin.

The document is not an isolated piece but part of a dossier with the signature PA AA, RZ 214, R 100848b, Bl.272-278. The matter was started by von Thadden's well-known note on the "gas-chamber" incident in Minsk, which was reported to him via his superior Franz Rademacher by the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories ("Ostministerium"). Apart from the signed note, there exists in the file also an initialed copy (exactly with the initials Mattogno confused as a signature) (Figure 4).

Image
Figure 4: Note by von Thadden of 15 May 1943 with his initials

Furthermore, the incident with the "gas chamber" in Minsk is mentioned in the copy of a follow-up letter from von Thadden to the the Ostland representative of the Foreign Office, Adolf Windecker, of 17 May 1943.

[...]

At the Opera in Minsk, the Italian delegation had to wonder how so many Jewish families had been killed. It stands to reason that Kube revealed to them the murder weapon - homicidal gassing. The German Foreign Office obtained via the Ostministerium that Kube reportedly told the delegation that the Jews "had been killed in a gas chamber" and that the "Fascists had been most deeply shocked". Vidussoni himself may have indicated this as well with the remark "what has most affected the Italians is the way of killing" (notable without explaining further details).
And here we are back to precious "copies" of true originals again. :lol:
That being said I'm not going to discount the other arguments from Hans that:

1. Mattogno incorrectly cited The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary (1981) when he should have cited The Destruction of Hungarian Jewry (1963)
2. Mattogno incorrectly conflated a set of initials with a signature and probably has no basis for declaring any forgery of any signature from von Thadden.
3. Mattogno incorrectly stated as a historical fact that no Italian fascist delegation visited Minsk.

One last little bit from the comments section:
The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

>>> "The document is not an isolated piece but part of a dossier with the signature PA AA, RZ 214, R 100848b, Bl.272-278."


If Irving's right about the "K" series Bates numbering, and considering what I detail below, this dossier was complied in Britain. Did you know that?

3 of the documents must have previously been in 2 different dossiers. They all feature 2 further sets of 7-digit Bates numbering.

VTh's signed note 15 May 1943 [presumably along with his initialled copy of the note—which doesn't bear any 7-digit Bates stamping] was at one stage in an entirely different dossier to the copy of his letter to Windecker, 17 May 1943.

I'm assuming the 3-digit Bates numbering was done by the archive which now holds the dossier. The stamp isn't on the Eichmann trial copy of vTh's signed note posted by Romanov.

At least one document, "K206915", went walkies before this British complied dossier made it to its current home.
Thursday, January 24, 2019 3:00:00 am







Hans Metzner said...

Would they have filmed or skipped clear duplicates in a file?

Fun fact: Mattogno believes that "it should be noted that the 'Geheim' stamp and those indicating the registration numbers 'K206919,' 'H322193' and 'E421193' are doubtlessly authentic, that is, genuine stamps then in use at the Reich Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as shown by other letters by Eberhard von Thadden, such as those published by Randolph L. Braham." (The Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories, p.329)
Thursday, January 24, 2019 6:26:00 am





Jonathan Harrison said...

I think the burden of proof here clearly lies with BroI. You can't just insinuate that something might be suspicious until you've refuted the benign alternatives.

But also this distracts from the point of the posting - how Mattogno treats the sources.
Thursday, January 24, 2019 4:37:00 pm
Last edited by Werd on Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hans
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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship

Post by Hans » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:25 pm

Werd wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 pm

And here we are back to precious "copies" of true originals again. :lol:
Where's the funny part? Copies are an entirely normal fact in any bureaucracy. How would an authority know what letter it sent to somebody if did not make a copy of it for its own files? What would they do without copies when sending the same letter to multiple recipients? The allergy of "Revisionists" against copies made by Nazi offices of their own letters is irrational and usually only a subterfuge to avoid addressing inconvinient evidence. By the way, Mattogno cites numerous copies in his works and I don't remember any "Revisionist" complained about this.

The copy of the letter with another "gas-chamber" reference is indeed precious since it contains additional comments by the German Foreign Office on the issue which were not on the letter sent to the representative in Riga.

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