Einsatzgruppen

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
Post Reply
User avatar
VFX
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:54 pm
Location: München, Deutschland
Contact:

Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:21 am

The Soviet partisans were members of resistance movements that fought a guerrilla war against the Axis forces in the Soviet Union, the previously Soviet-occupied territories of interwar Poland in 1941–45 and eastern Finland. The activity emerged after the National Socialist German Operation Barbarossa during World War II, and according to Great Soviet Encyclopedia it was coordinated and controlled by the Soviet government and modeled on that of the Red Army. The partisans made significant contributions to the war by frustrating German plans to exploit occupied Soviet territories economically, gave considerable help to the Soviet Army by conducting systematic strikes against Germany's rear communication network, disseminated political work among the local population by publishing newspapers and leaflets, and succeeded in creating and maintaining a feeling of insecurity among German forces.

Soviet partisans also operated on Polish, Ukrainian and Baltic territories occupied by the Soviet Union in 1939-1940, but they had significantly less support there and often clashed violently with local self-defense and pro-independence and pro-Western national partisan groups. The rest can be read on Wiki here

The Reich special action squads or Einsatzgruppen were designed to deal with these insurgent terrorists. While Jews were not supposed to be the prime target there was an emphasis on Jude who were Bolshevik; these people and families were a threat to Europe. As enemy combatants and terrorists there were summary executions by firing squad.

The issue
The action squads who were primarily cops, doing soldiers work have been targeted as war criminals with the normal show trials after the war. Mattogno has put out a new work which needs serious discussion as it does describe some apparent atrocities.
In his defense one of the Generals of the Action Squads General Otto Ohlendorf has stated that what they did on the ground was no different to what the British did to Civilians in Dresden, Hamburg or what the yanks did to innocent Japanese with the dropping of two atomic nuclear weapons. This is what Lipstadt calls moral equivalence and from her point of view not justified.
Alex Kurzem the little adopted Lithuanian SS kid escaped from his little village of Koidanov (Dzyarzhynsk) reports of apparent Latvian police units pre holocaust (alleged) who did some mass executions and then incorporated into the Latvian SS under Commander Karlis Lobe.

Thread intent
To simply discuss the Mattogno report chapter by chapter to bring some sense and real history to the events in Belarus and elsewhere during those dark times. Lets start.
“The unforgivable sin of Hitler’s Germany was to develop a new economic system by which the international bankers were deprived of their profits.”
— Winston Churchill

rollo the ganger
Posts: 5699
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:34 am
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by rollo the ganger » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:23 am

I haven't read the Mattogno report but in regards to the comment by General Ohlendorf I couldn't disagree more. Dresden was purely a terror raid whereas the Einsatzgruppen were taking action against partisans and their civilian support base. General Jodl claimed in his IMT testimony that around 500,000 German soldiers died by partisan activity and given the nature of partisan warfare drastic action on the part of the German Military was necessary.

User avatar
VFX
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:54 pm
Location: München, Deutschland
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:33 pm

rollo the ganger wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:23 am
I haven't read the Mattogno report but in regards to the comment by General Ohlendorf I couldn't disagree more. Dresden was purely a terror raid whereas the Einsatzgruppen were taking action against partisans and their civilian support base. General Jodl claimed in his IMT testimony that around 500,000 German soldiers died by partisan activity and given the nature of partisan warfare drastic action on the part of the German Military was necessary.
I agree with you regarding the terror raids on Dresden. This was straight out murder of innocent citizens just like the atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The testimony of the General at his trial can be found here. At the trial, Ohlendorf attempted to present the operations in the Soviet area "not as a racist programme for the annihilation of all the Jews...but as a general liquidation order primarily aimed at 'securing' the newly won territory. Defending his exploits further, Ohlendorf compared the Einsatzgruppen actions to the Biblical Jewish extirpation of its enemies; he likewise claimed that his firing squads were "no worse than the 'press-button killers' who dropped the atom bomb on Japan." Wistrich, Robert (1995). Who's Who In Nazi Germany. New York: Routledge. This was an attempt at moral equivalency.
He said: "The treatment of the Germans by the Allies was at least as bad as the shooting of those Jews. The bombing of cities with men, women, and children burning with phosphorus - these things were all done by the Allies." It is believed in Dresden up to 135 000 people were killed and 226 thousands murdered in the atomic explosions: few of these people were combatants.

SS-Gruppenführer admitted to the execution of 90 000 Jude but claims he was just following orders.
"I surrendered my moral conscience to the fact that I was a soldier, and therefore a cog in a relatively low position of a great machine"
Of course his men had little choice. Otto said: "The men of my group who are under indictment here were under my military command. If they had not executed the orders which they were given, they would have been ordered by me to execute them. If they had refused to execute the orders they would have had to be called to account for it by me. There could be no doubt about it. Whoever refused anything in the front lines would have met immediate death. If the refusal would have come about in any other way, a court martial of the Higher SS and Police Leader would have brought about the same consequences."
“The unforgivable sin of Hitler’s Germany was to develop a new economic system by which the international bankers were deprived of their profits.”
— Winston Churchill

laststarfighter
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by laststarfighter » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:02 pm

meldung 51 clearly lists 330k "Jews" being killed separately from partisans or communists

the Jager report ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4ger_Report ) clearly shows men, women, and children systematically shot village by village

this throws a wrench into the gears of deniers with an IQ above room temperature because logically the Nazis wouldnt be taking care of some Jews and ostensibly planning to peacefully resettle them while massacring them a bit further to the East. at that point they'll try to switch the topic back to something they're more comfortable debating ("where's the bodies?" "gas chambers aren't real") and of course the ultimate trump card, call the above documents fake, like they call any document they dont like fake and part of the hoax. "but please show me a written order by Hitler to gas Jews"

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 2247
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Mönchweiler
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by Huntinger » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:33 am

laststarfighter wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:02 pm
meldung 51 clearly lists 330k "Jews" being killed separately from partisans or communists

the Jager report ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4ger_Report ) clearly shows men, women, and children systematically shot village by village

this throws a wrench into the gears of deniers with an IQ above room temperature because logically the Nazis wouldnt be taking care of some Jews and ostensibly planning to peacefully resettle them while massacring them a bit further to the East. at that point they'll try to switch the topic back to something they're more comfortable debating ("where's the bodies?" "gas chambers aren't real") and of course the ultimate trump card, call the above documents fake, like they call any document they dont like fake and part of the hoax. "but please show me a written order by Hitler to gas Jews"
Thank you for the report. No one is interested in your thoughts on gas chambers or orders to be quite frank nor your insults. I would suggest you desist from these, it is cold in Siberia at this time of year. The intention of the thread is to talk in general about the Einstagruppen, especially the new book which is some heavy reading. There is no doubt Jude were shot on Soviet soil as they were all Bolshevik Jewish terrorists. Otto Ohlendorf claimed he ordered the destruction of 90 000 of these Jewish Terrorists. I am sure that executing Partizani summarily was justified.
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎

laststarfighter
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by laststarfighter » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am

Obeliai - 421 Juden kinder (Jewish children) killed
Zarasai - 621 Jewish children killed
Žagarė - 2236 men, women, children "As Jews were led away, they mutinied but it was quickly subdued"

these aren't "bolshevik jewish terrorists", this is systematic ethnic cleansing of a civillian population, with men of course men being outnumbered by women and children since men would be away in the red army as conscripts . they even mention communist party officials and partisans separately. your roleplaying as an SS member and random insertion of German words is hilarious and i bet your fellow 'revisionists' are embarrassed by it

Turnagain
Posts: 3880
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by Turnagain » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:34 am

Here is an excerpt from a discussion of the Jaeger report on CODOH.

This is a page from the so-called Jaeger-Report, the Soviets say were in their archives for years:
Image
There is no identifiable signature on it. All that's needed to establish it, would be a piece of paper, a type writer, skilled writer with profound knowledge of the German language. All of which was available to the Soviets at the time.
Jäger escaped capture by the Allies when the war ended, assumed a false identity, and was able to assimilate back into society as a farm hand until his report was discovered in March 1959. Arrested and charged with his crimes, Jäger committed suicide by hanging himself in prison in Hohenasperg while he was awaiting trial in June 1959.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J%C3%A4gerp
The German article states that he didn't change his name. And it isn't exactly easy to "hang yourself" in German prison or detention. They take everything away from you that could be useful for suicide, especially hanging. Also note that Karl Jaeger was apparently 70 years old at that time.

Starfighter takes this report as gospel truth while its provenance has never been established.

laststarfighter
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by laststarfighter » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:39 am

so you're saying the Jager report was a fake? and if they wanted to fake it, why couldn't they fake a signature too? is that so hard?

Turnagain
Posts: 3880
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by Turnagain » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:08 am

laststarfighter wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:39 am
so you're saying the Jager report was a fake? and if they wanted to fake it, why couldn't they fake a signature too? is that so hard?
So you are saying that the Jaeger report is 100% proven pure gold truth?

laststarfighter
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Einsatzgruppen

Post by laststarfighter » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:23 am

nothing is 100% proven gold truth, thats a dumb strawman. but considering it corroborates other documents and witness and perpetrator accounts of what the EG were doing, I'm gonna assume its real unless its expressly proven otherwise.. The same way i assume other historical documents from other sides of the war, or in general, are real. Otherwise whats the point? Otherwise what are you doing but betraying your bias by disregarding something that doesn't fit your narrative as fake, while choosing the documents you do like as evidence to support your own position? its very disingenous

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 9 guests