Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

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zionist-occupation
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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by zionist-occupation » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
zionist-occupation wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:10 pm
Do you agree that the authenticity of the transcript is questionable, yes or no?
Yes, but it is certainly more plausible than the hearsay quote you posted about Chamberlain alleged comment about America and world Jews.
You finally admit to it. Good, then you should stop using it. I don't care what you find more "plausible". I don't see any proof James Forrestal lied.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
I never posted which year he said it. :shock:
I know you didn't, which is why I called you out on it. Am I not allowed to put your quote into context for the reader?? Again, the document is forged.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
Quote or no quote, Hitler had no respect for the Munich Agreement - he ideally wanted to use force to take over the rest of Czechoslovakia.
This is just you trying to cover your ass after I exposed the fact that the document your quote comes from is forged. And you're still beating the same dead horse about Czechoslovakia...
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wor ... oland.html

Do you seriously believe Hitler was only interested in annexing Danzig?
Nice, an article full of unsourced statements. You're such a hypocrite, this is exactly what you called out FPB for doing...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3498&start=20
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3498&start=20#p135791

What's also funny is that the article that you posted also includes Hitler's 16 Points. Read them for yourself, they were reasonable.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/167317882

And more...
On August 28 the British answer to Hitlers proposal arrived in Berlin, personally delivered by Henderson. The British stated that England would be pleased to enter into negotiations concerning the British/German interest, but that the Polish issue must be settled first. Hitler agreed and promised to negotiate with a Polish government willing to negotiate. He then asked Henderson if England would be willing to accept a coalition with German, Henderson replied in the affirmative (Ribbentrop, p.353, DBFP VII, No.455).
On the evening of August 29, Henderson phoned London and told them that the German government is willing to negotiate with the Poles, they are working on proposals for a acceptable solution, which will be submitted to the English government “before” the Polish emissary arrives (Ribbentrop, p.356, DBFP VII, No.490). In fact the Germans had stated that the British government will “also” (a word omitted by Henderson) be informed “if possible before” the emissary arrives. Halifax then send a telegram to Henderson telling him that the British government will consider the German proposal, but it would be unreasonable to expect that a Polish emissary can be brought to Berlin. Henderson was advised to use the appropriate channels to inform the “proper” authorities about this. A copy of the telegram was send to Warsaw, Rom and Paris (DBFP VII, No.504).

Thus, Warsaw knew that the British did not intend to have a Polish emissary go to Berlin. Also, by proper authorities Ribbentrop is convinced that the Beck/Goerdeler group had been referred to, for, if the German government was meant why not say so. Henderson, who had claimed not to know what the 16 points contained, nevertheless informed Lipski on the 31 about them. Lipski paled and told him that he was not interested in German notes. He was well informed, had connections to Göring and other important people and was certain that should war break out Germany would decent into turmoil, allowing Polish troops to march into Berlin (Dahlerus, Der letzte Versuch, S.110).

Historians claim that those 16 points were to serve as a fig leave for Hitler, not so, he would have been bound by them if a Polish emissary would have arrived. But, nobody showed up. Lady Diana, wife of Duff Cooper, former first Lord of the Admiralty, found the 16 points to be quite reasonable. Duff was shocked because the English public could agree with his wife (Barbarossa, p.128).
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
So you think in 1939 the Poles should have tried to negotiate with a man that had already ordered the invasion of a state before even negotiating with the President of that state? Yeah, right.
Still beating the same dead horse. I've already addressed this...

Czechoslovakia was not the reason the Poles didn't want to deal with Hitler because:
1. The Poles still refused Germany's offer before the Germans even marched into Prague.
2. The Poles themselves took part in the dissolution of Czechoslovakia.

I'll just copy-paste my previous answer...
Hacha himself requests a meeting, because he probably wanted find a solution on how to deal with the aftermath of the Munich Agreement, his country was collapsing. The Germans accept, Hitler felt that the military marching in and establishing a protectorate with Hacha as president would be the best solution. Hacha first disagrees, most likely tries to propose an alternate solution. After negotiating with Hitler he finally accepts the proposal and signs the paper.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
Hitler's idea of Lebensraum and his so-called idea of only annexing Danzig contradict each other.
You already admitted to the Schmundt Protocol's origin being questionable and I already addressed the Berghof speech.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
What's funny is that you are trying to justify and legitimatise hearsay.
What's funny is that you're a complete hypocrite, here you are trying to justify hearsay.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
You don't get to move the goalposts. Are you rollo the granger? His tactics are very similar to yours. I provide evidence and then you want more and more, nothing is ever good enough. I have provided both the English and German version of the Schmundt's recording of the speech. If you want to find anything else, find it yourself.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3498&start=100#p136446

I don't even justify hearsay, can you actually read what I wrote?

I said:
it's true those may not be 100% the words Chamberlain used
Again, I don't see how you can come up with a scenario where Forrestal twists Chamberlain's words that badly.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
Do you have any actual evidence Chamberlain said anything like that apart from the source I have already posted?

The fact it's not mentioned in any major biographies of Chamberlain or WW2 should tell you something about the authenticity of the quote.

Can you prove Forrestal is lying?

I don't give a shit what mainstream biographies write about Chamberlain or WW2. The mainstream has it's bias, their input is irrelevant.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
Do you agree with the rest of the paragraph?
I used the article to state the basic fact that the Poles were denying German offers before Czechoslovakia was even occupied.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
You were the one that has changed the date from August 1939 to right after the Munich Agreement in October 1938.

By August 1939 the Poles had every right to refuse to negotiate with Hitler because of his track record. The gut instinct of the Poles was right, I'm sure you are aware of the secret protocol between the Nazis and the Soviets to divide Poland.
Now you're just moving the goalposts.

You stated on numerous occasions that the Poles declined Germany's reasonable offers was because of the fate of Czechoslovakia...
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
They had witnessed what had happened to the rest of Czechoslovakia and knew Hitler could not keep his word.

The Poles feared that allowing the Nazis to annex Danzig would eventually mean the loss of their sovereignty and independence because of the Nazis record with Czechoslovakia.

They had witnessed what had happened to the rest of Czechoslovakia and knew Hitler could not keep his word.
I called you out on your garbage. I stated that the Germans were negotiating with the Poles as early as October 1938, BEFORE the occupation of Czechoslovakia. You're just moving the goalposts now because I've proved you wrong.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
So if you quite freely admit the Germans were going to march into Czechoslovakia whether Hácha agreed or not, what are you contesting exactly?
What? Just because the Germans had plans to march into Czechoslovakia doesn't mean they were going to do it without negotiating with Hacha. When Hacha requested to meet with the Germans, they accepted, and exchanged how they both felt on the situation, they could've easily just told Hacha to fuck off and invaded.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
Do you have Richard J. Evans' The Third Reich Trilogy? It's also mentioned in Louis Leo Snyder's Encyclopedia of the Third Reich on page 134.
What's the primary source?

Oh boy, get a load of this double standard.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
Look at what Hitler wanted to do, not just Göring's bullying tactics.
Also Goody67:
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
The evidence points to the fact that Göring's threat to bomb the capital had something to do with the heart attack.
Did you not even read mine and rollo the gagner's post?
rollo the ganger wrote: After considerable difficulty telephonic communication with Prague was obtained and the Czech Government had agreed, while adding that they could not guarantee that one Czech battalion at least would not fire on the German troops. It was, he said, only at that stage that he had warned Dr. Hacha that, if German lives were lost, he would bombard Prague.
I wrote: So, Prague was never at the risk of being being bombed and Goring made the statement out of his own initiative to "accelerate the whole matter". Goring was talking out of his ass, isolated incident. Goring wasn't even in the room when Hacha and Hitler spoke.
Again, no evidence indicates that was the reason. I repeat, if you have any proof or statements by Hacha's family that claim the Germans did something to harm him, show them. I know his daughter travelled with him.
Goody67 wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:54 pm
Maybe reading below will allow you to get a better understanding of the situation:
No argument found here, just walls of text.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by Goody67 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:09 pm

For those who are genuinely interested in why the Poles refused to negotiate with the Germans, have a read of the following:

https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=162

https://www2.bc.edu/john-heineman/roadiv.html

Wikipedia also provides details on a few articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City ... zig_crisis

By the way, I stated that the Poles had every right to refuse to negotiate with the Germans in August 1939 because of what the Nazis did to Czechoslovakia in 1939. I said nothing about the negotiating in October 1938. Nevertheless, the Germans were demanding, not negotiating in October 1938.

Hitler didn't just simply want to annex Danzig, he also wanted an extraterritorial railway and highway connection to East Prussia.

Even if the Poles had allowed the Nazis to annex Danzig, how was Hitler going to be able to achieve Lebensraum in the East without conquering the rest of Poland?

Also, the Nazis had already agreed with the Soviets about what parts of Poland were going to be annexed to the Nazis, this was before even the so-called final offer was proposed to the Poles about Danzig.
Deniers are a few bricks short of a load.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by Goody67 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm

zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
Can you prove Forrestal is lying?
No, but the quote lacks any authenticity, since it is only hearsay. What is the "primary source" as you always ask me when I provide a secondary source.
I don't give a shit what mainstream biographies write about Chamberlain or WW2. The mainstream has it's bias, their input is irrelevant.
The reason you don't care is because it doesn't conform to your confirmation bias. You pick and choose what you want to believe.

Let me ask you, do you honestly think that the "world Jews" played a part in Hitler's decision to invade Poland?
Now you're just moving the goalposts.

You stated on numerous occasions that the Poles declined Germany's reasonable offers was because of the fate of Czechoslovakia...
In August 1939, not in 1938.
I called you out on your garbage. I stated that the Germans were negotiating with the Poles as early as October 1938, BEFORE the occupation of Czechoslovakia. You're just moving the goalposts now because I've proved you wrong.
In October 1938 Ribbentrop demanded the return of Danzig. The reason it was declined was because Jozef Lipski stated that Polish public opinion would not tolerate the Free City joining Germany and predicated that if Warsaw allowed that to happen, then the Sanation military dictatorship that had ruled Poland since 1926 would be overthrown.

I stated that the Poles knew by August 1939 that their sovereignty would have been lost if they had accepted Hitler's demands because of Hitler's record with Czechoslovakia a few months earlier.
What? Just because the Germans had plans to march into Czechoslovakia doesn't mean they were going to do it without negotiating with Hacha. When Hacha requested to meet with the Germans, they accepted, and exchanged how they both felt on the situation, they could've easily just told Hacha to fuck off and invaded.

What's the primary source?

Oh boy, get a load of this double standard.
Hácha only requested the interview with Hitler because he was confronted with the imminent dissolution of Czechoslovakia. Hitler kept him waiting, he watched a popular film.

Ian Kershaw, Hitler 1936-1945: Nemesis:
On the morning of 14 March, the anticipated request came from Prague, seeking an audience of the Czech State Present Dr Emil Hácha with Hitler. Hacha, a small, shy, somewhat unworldly, and also rather sickly man, in office since the previous November, was unable to fly because of a heart complaint. He arrived in Berlin during the course of the evening, after a fire-hour train journey, accompanied only by Foreign Minister Chvalkovský, his secretary, and his daughter. Hitler kept him nervously waiting in the Adlon Hotel until midnight to increase the pressure upon him - 'the old tested methods of political tactics', as Goebbels put it. While Hácha fretted, Hitler amused himself watching a film called Ein hoffnungsloser Fall (A Hopeless Case).

Hitler was at his most intimidating. He launched into a violent tirade against the Czechs and the 'spirit of Benes' that, he claimed, still lived on. It was necessary in order to safeguard the Reich, he continued, to impose a protectorate over the remainder of Czechoslovakia. Háchaand Chvalkovský sat stony-faced and motionless. The entry of German troops was 'irreversible', ranted Hitler. Keitel would confirm that they were already marching towards the Czech border, and would cross it at 6 a.m. His Czech 'guests' knew that some had in fact already crossed the border in one place. Hácha should phone Prague at once and give orders that there was to be no resistance, if bloodshed were to be avoided. Hácha said he wanted no bloodshed, and asked Hitler to halt the military build-up. Hitler refused: it was impossible, the troops were already mobilized. Göring intervened to add that his Luftwaffe would be over Prague by dawn, and it was in Hácha's hands whether bombs fell on the beautiful city. In fact, the 7th Airborne Division detailed for the operation was grounded by snow. But at the threat, the Czech President fainted. If anything happened to Hácha, thought Paul Schmidt, the entire world would think he had been murdered in the Reich Chancellery. But Hácha recovered, revived by an injection from Hitler's personal physician, Dr Morell.

Meanwhile, Prague could not be reached by telephone. Ribbentrop was beside himself with fury at the failings of the German Post Office (though it was established that any difficulty was at the Prague end). Eventually, contact with Prague was made. The browbeaten President was immediately to telephone and, on a crackly line, passed on his orders that Czech troops were not to open fire on the invading Germans. Just before 4 a.m., Hácha signed the declaration, placing the fate of his people in the hands of the Leader of the German Reich.

Overjoyed, Hitler went in to see his two secretaries, Christia Schroeder and Gerda Daranowski, who had been on duty that night. 'So, children,' he burst out, pointing to his cheeks, 'each of you give me a kiss there and there. . . This is the happiest day of my life. What has been striven for in vain for centuries, I have been fortunate enough to bring about. I have achieved the union of Czechia with the Reich. Hacha has signed the agreement. I will go down as the greatest German in history.
Deniers are a few bricks short of a load.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by zionist-occupation » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:54 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
Hitler didn't just simply want to annex Danzig, he also wanted an extraterritorial railway and highway connection to East Prussia.
THOSE FUCKING EVIL NAZIS BACK AT IT AGAIN WITH THEIR PESKY HIGHWAYS!!!

Are you disabled? I already explained to you the full deal.
zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
In October 1938, German Foreign Minister Joachim Ribbentrop presented Poland with the proposition of renewing the Pact in exchange for allowing the Free City of Danzig to be annexed by Germany and the construction of an extraterritorial motorway and railway through the Polish Corridor, with Germany accepting Poland's postwar borders. Poland refused.
Hitler's 16 points: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/167317882
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
Also, the Nazis had already agreed with the Soviets about what parts of Poland were going to be annexed to the Nazis, this was before even the so-called final offer was proposed to the Poles about Danzig.
German-Soviet relations is a completely separate topic.

If you read my last post, the reality is Hitler requested a Polish emissary in Berlin on August 29 to negotiate and reach an agreement. He would've been bound to his 16 points he originally proposed. That emissary never showed up.

Hitler offered to guarantee Poland's borders and offered an anti-Soviet pact way before the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, to which Poland also declined.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
Can you prove Forrestal is lying?
No.
We're done here then...
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
the quote lacks any authenticity, since it is only hearsay.
Learn to read...
zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
it's true those may not be 100% the words Chamberlain used
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
What is the "primary source" as you always ask me when I provide a secondary source.
Except the Forrestal Diary IS a primary source you fucking retard...
a primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
The reason you don't care is because it doesn't conform to your confirmation bias. You pick and choose what you want to believe.
You're showing your hypocrisy again. It's funny because you're the one that refuses to believe Goring because it contradicts your view on WW2.

I don't care about mainstream history or historians because they have an agenda. I care about reality, I've already seen the mainstream perspective.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
In August 1939, not in 1938.
Keep squirming...

Except you never provided a date at all. All you said is that the Poles refused to accept Germany's offer because of the fate of Czechoslovakia, that not true because they refused to negotiate before Czechoslovakia had even been occupied.

Czechoslovakia was never the reason.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
They had witnessed what had happened to the rest of Czechoslovakia and knew Hitler could not keep his word.

The Poles feared that allowing the Nazis to annex Danzig would eventually mean the loss of their sovereignty and independence because of the Nazis record with Czechoslovakia.

They had witnessed what had happened to the rest of Czechoslovakia and knew Hitler could not keep his word.
You're just moving the goalposts now and even then for the dissolution of Czechoslovakia to be reason doesn't make sense because the Poles themselves also took part in that dissolution.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
In October 1938 Ribbentrop demanded the return of Danzig. The reason it was declined was because Jozef Lipski stated that Polish public opinion would not tolerate the Free City joining Germany and predicated that if Warsaw allowed that to happen, then the Sanation military dictatorship that had ruled Poland since 1926 would be overthrown.
So they declined because they didn't want their government to be overthrown? How does this not also play a factor in Poland denying Germany's offers in 1939??

You're just proving my point.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
I stated that the Poles knew by August 1939 that their sovereignty would have been lost if they had accepted Hitler's demands because of Hitler's record with Czechoslovakia a few months earlier.
Nah, you moved the goal posts as I've already shown you. Again bringing up Czechoslovakia after I explained it to you a million times.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
Hacha himself requests a meeting, because he probably wanted find a solution on how to deal with the aftermath of the Munich Agreement, his country was collapsing and he couldn't control his minorities. The Germans accept, Hitler felt that the military marching in and establishing a protectorate with Hacha as president would be the best solution. Hacha, most likely tries to propose an alternate solution. After negotiating with Hitler he finally accepts the proposal and signs the paper.
Furthermore, according to Goring's conversation with Henderson, Hacha agreed and needed to give the confirmation to Prague but there was difficulty trying to reach them.
According to him Dr. Hacha had from the first been prepared to sign everything but had said that constitutionally he could not do so without reference first to Prague. After considerable difficulty telephonic communication with Prague was obtained and the Czech Government had agreed
This all according to people who were actually there.
Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm
Hácha only requested the interview with Hitler because he was confronted with the imminent dissolution of Czechoslovakia. Hitler kept him waiting, he watched a popular film.

Ian Kershaw, Hitler 1936-1945: Nemesis:
Atleast you finally admit that it was Hacha that requested the interview... Again, what's the primary source that Hacha was kept waiting on purpose?
Last edited by zionist-occupation on Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by Goody67 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am

zionist-occupation wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:54 pm
THOSE FUCKING EVIL NAZIS BACK AT IT AGAIN WITH THEIR PESKY HIGHWAYS!!!
Is that all you can say to the fact that Hitler demanded more than just Danzig?

Are you disabled? I already explained to you the full deal.
zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
In October 1938, German Foreign Minister Joachim Ribbentrop presented Poland with the proposition of renewing the Pact in exchange for allowing the Free City of Danzig to be annexed by Germany and the construction of an extraterritorial motorway and railway through the Polish Corridor, with Germany accepting Poland's postwar borders. Poland refused.

Hitler's 16 points: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/167317882
Hitler had no intention to keeping to his 16 points.
All through the spring and summer of 1939 there was a massive media campaign in Germany demanding the immediate return of the Free City of Danzig to Germany under the slogan "Home to the Reich!". However, the Danzig crisis was a just a pretext for war. Ribbentrop ordered Count Hans-Adolf von Moltke, the German ambassador to Poland, not to negotiate with the Poles over Danzig as it was always Ribbentrop's great fear that the Poles might actually agree to the Free City returning to Germany, thereby depriving the Reich out of its pretext for attacking Poland. However, the German propaganda that all the Reich wanted was to bring Danzig home did some effect abroad. In April 1943, when mass grave of the Polish officers massacred by the NKVD in Katyn Wood was discovered, the Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King wrote in his diary that it was the Poles who caused the outbreak of the war in 1939 by refusing to give in to Hitler's demand that Danzig be allowed to rejoin Germany, and as such it was the Poles' own fault for the Katyn Wood massacre and everything else they had suffered since 1939. The British historian Victor Rothwell described King's view that the Poles had caused their own suffering as one motivated by spite and his resentment at being pressured by public opinion into declaring war on Germany despite his own inclinations towards neutrality. From distant New Zealand, the Prime Minister Michael Joseph Savage offered to return New Zealand Samoa, which had once been the colony of German Samoa together with the rest of the former German islands in the Pacific held by New Zealand, in exchange for Germany promising not to use violence to alter the status of Danzig.

However, in 1938, the Reich government had first demanded autonomy for the Sudetenland region and after Prague had conceded the demand for autonomy, had laid claim to the Sudetenland. On 15 March 1939, Germany had occupied the Czech part of Czecho-Slovakia, which had done immense damage to Hitler's claim that he was only trying to undo an "unjust" Treaty of Versailles by bringing all of the ethnic Germans "home to the Reich". The British Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax late in August 1939 told Herbert von Dirksen, the German ambassador in London:

“Last year the German government put forward the demand for the Sudetenland on purely racial grounds; but subsequent events proved that this demand was only put forward as a cover for the annihilation of Czechoslovakia. In view of this experience… it is not surprising that the Poles and we ourselves are afraid that the demand for Danzig is only a first move towards the destruction of Poland’s independence”.

Tensions escalated into the Danzig crisis during the summer of 1939. F.M Shepard, the British consul in Danzig, reported that the Danzig Nazis were bringing arms from Germany and building fortifications. In July 1939, the British government reluctantly extended its "guarantee" of Poland to the status of Free City of Danzig, stating a German attempt to take Danzig would be a casus belli. At the beginning of August, the Senate told Warsaw that henceforward the Free City would not longer recognize the authority of Polish customs officers in Danzig, which led Beck in response to warn that the Senate did not have the right to disregard the terms of the Treaty of Versailles and that the German government also did not have the right to speak for Danzig. Much to the chagrin of the British Foreign Office, Warsaw did not to consult Britain first when it issued a warning that the Polish Air Force would bomb Danzig if the authority of Polish customs officers continued to be ignored. The Senate backed down while the British who were informed after the fact of the Polish decision to confront the Free City were thrown into panic over the possibility of an armed clash in Danzig plunging Europe into war. The British ambassador to Poland, Sir Howard William Kennard, sought in vain for a promise from Colonel Beck that Poland would take no action in Danzig without first obtaining British approval. Beck disliked Kennard and kept him in the dark about what Poland would do if Danzig voted to rejoin Germany, but also about the state of German-Polish relations, much to the vexation of the Foreign Office.

In the middle of August, Beck offered a concession, saying that Poland was willing to give up its control of Danzig's customs, a proposal which caused fury in Berlin. However, the leaders of the Free City sent a message to Berlin on 19 August 1939 saying: "Gauleiter Forster intends to extend claims...Should the Poles yield again it is intended to increase the claims further in order to make accord impossible". The same day a telegram from Berlin expressed approval with the proviso: "Discussions will have to be conducted and pressure exerted against Poland in such a way that responsibility for failure to come to an agreement and the consequences rest with Poland". On 23 August 1939, Albert Forster, the Gauleiter of Danzig, called a meeting of the Senate that voted to have the Free City rejoin Germany, raising tensions to the breaking point. The same meeting appointed Forster the Danzig State President, through this was due to Forster's long-running rivalry with Arthur Greiser, a völkisch fanatic who regarded Forster as too soft on the Poles. Both the appointment of Forster as State President and the resolution calling for the Free City to rejoin the Reich were violations of the charter the League of Nations had given Danzig in 1920, and the matter should have been taken to the League of Nations's Security Council for discussion.

Since these violations of the Danzig charter would have resulted in the League deposing the Danzig's Nazi government, both the French and British prevented the matter from being referred to the Security Council. Instead the British and French applied strong pressure on the Poles not to sent in a military force to depose the Danzig government, and appoint a mediator to resolve the crisis. In the meantime, the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein had arrived in Danzig. Upon anchoring in Danzig harbor, the Schleswig-Holstein ominously aimed its guns at the Polish Military Depot on the Westerplatte peninsula in a provocative gesture that further raised the tensions in the Free City.

At about 4:48am on 1 September 1939, the Schleswig-Holstein opened fire on the Westerplatte, firing the first shots of World War II.
Your claim that Hitler was wanting to negotiate with the Poles is utter BS. The order to invade Poland had already been given!
When Ambassador Józef Lipski went to see Ribbentrop on August 30, he was presented with Hitler’s demands. However, he did not have the full power to sign and Ribbentrop ended the meeting. News was then broadcast that Poland had rejected Germany's offer.
German-Soviet relations is a completely separate topic.

If you read my last post, the reality is Hitler requested a Polish emissary in Berlin on August 29 to negotiate and reach an agreement. He would've been bound to his 16 points he originally proposed. That emissary never showed up.
No, it is not. The Nazis and Soviets divided Poland up with the pact and a secret protocol. If Hitler had only been interested in Danzig, why had he already agreed to annexing more than that with the Soviets?

I've already explained to you:
On 29 August, prompted by the British, Germany issued one last diplomatic offer, with Fall Weiss yet to be rescheduled. That evening, the German government responded in a communication that it aimed not only for the restoration of Danzig but also the Polish Corridor (which had not previously been part of Hitler’s demands) in addition to the safeguarding of the German minority in Poland. It said that they were willing to commence negotiations, but indicated that a Polish representative with the power to sign an agreement had to arrive in Berlin the next day while in the meantime it would draw up a set of proposals. The British Cabinet was pleased that negotiations had been agreed to but, mindful of how Emil Hácha had been forced to sign his country away under similar circumstances just months earlier, regarded the requirement for an immediate arrival of a Polish representative with full signing powers as an unacceptable ultimatum. On the night of 30/31 August, German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop read a 16-point German proposal to the British ambassador. When the ambassador requested a copy of the proposals for transmission to the Polish government, Ribbentrop refused, on the grounds that the requested Polish representative had failed to arrive by midnight.[44] When Polish Ambassador Lipski went to see Ribbentrop later on 31 August to indicate that Poland was favorably disposed to negotiations, he announced that he did not have the full power to sign, and Ribbentrop dismissed him. It was then broadcast that Poland had rejected Germany's offer, and negotiations with Poland came to an end. Hitler issued orders for the invasion to commence soon afterwards.
zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
Can you prove Forrestal is lying?
The quote lacks any authenticity because there is no evidence that Chamberlain said it or anything even similar to it.
Except the Forrestal Diary IS a primary source you fucking retard...
a primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study.
Yes, I was referring to the "other source of information". Apart from what Forrestal wrote in his diary, is there any other information that can verify that Chamberlain said anything like what Forrestal claimed?

From the same Wikipedia article:
However, a primary source is not necessarily more of an authority or better than a secondary source. There can be bias and tacit unconscious views which twist historical information.

"Original material may be... prejudiced, or at least not exactly what it claims to be."

— David Iredale
Do you know of any other sources that state Chamberlain said such a thing?

Why should I bother replying to someone that called me a "fucking retard"? I think you're beginning to show your true colours.
You're showing your hypocrisy again. It's funny because you're the one that refuses to believe Goring because it contradicts your view on WW2.
Except it does not, he used the threat of bombing Prague.

You wrote:
So, Prague was never at the risk of being being bombed and Goring made the statement out of his own initiative to "accelerate the whole matter". Goring was talking out of his ass, isolated incident. Goring wasn't even in the room when Hacha and Hitler spoke.
How do you know he was not in the same room?

Kershaw wrote:
Göring intervened to add that his Luftwaffe would be over Prague by dawn, and it was in Hácha's hands whether bombs fell on the beautiful city.
Göring said:
And in that connection I made the statement that I should be sorry if I had to bomb beautiful Prague. The intention of bombing Prague did not exist, nor had any order been given to that effect, for even in the case of resistance that would not have been necessary -- resistance could always be broken more easily without such bombing. But a point like that might, I thought, serve as an argument and accelerate the whole matter.
There are no contradictions, he threatened to bomb Prague if the Czechs fired at the invading Germans.
I don't care about mainstream history or historians because they have an agenda. I care about reality, I've already seen the mainstream perspective.
It is people like you that have an agenda, you cherry pick evidence to suit your agenda and beliefs.

"I care about reality" - Do you deny that Hitler started WW2?
Keep squirming...

Except you never provided a date at all. All you said is that the Poles refused to accept Germany's offer because of the fate of Czechoslovakia, that not true because they refused to negotiate before Czechoslovakia had even been occupied.

Czechoslovakia was never the reason.
Keep twisting what I post. It is very simple, Polish leaders feared for the loss of independence and sovereignty of Poland after the fate of Czechoslovakia since it had yielded the Sudetenland in October 1939 only to be invaded in March 1939.

Of course it was - by August 1939 Hitler had proven himself to be a liar.
You're just moving the goalposts now and even then for the dissolution of Czechoslovakia to be reason doesn't make sense because the Poles themselves also took part in that dissolution.
I have always stated after he invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia.
So they declined because they didn't want their government to be overthrown? How does this not also play a factor in Poland denying Germany's offers in 1939??

You're just proving my point.
Why do you have such trouble understanding why the Poles knew not to trust Hitler?

Even in October 1938 the Nazis were demanding to annex Danzig. Demanding and negotiating are two separate things.
Nah, you moved the goal posts as I've already shown you. Again bringing up Czechoslovakia after I explained it to you a million times.
Erm, yes. In October 1938 the Germans managed to annex the Sudetenland and then decided to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia in March 1939. Thus, Hitler could not be trusted.
Furthermore, according to Goring's conversation with Henderson, Hacha agreed and needed to give the confirmation to Prague but there was difficulty trying to reach them.

According to him Dr. Hacha had from the first been prepared to sign everything but had said that constitutionally he could not do so without reference first to Prague. After considerable difficulty telephonic communication with Prague was obtained and the Czech Government had agreed

This all according to people who were actually there.
Did you even bother to read the text by Kershaw?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3498&start=140#p136873

The Germans were going to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia whether Hácha agreed or not.
Atleast you finally admit that it was Hacha that requested the interview... Again, what's the primary source that Hacha was kept waiting on purpose?
I have never denied he requested the interview. However, he requested it because he was faced with the imminent dissolution of Czechoslovakia.

Kershaw cited Keitel's memoir.
Deniers are a few bricks short of a load.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by Huntinger » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:49 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
zionist-occupation wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:54 pm
THOSE FUCKING EVIL NAZIS BACK AT IT AGAIN WITH THEIR PESKY HIGHWAYS!!!
Is that all you can say to the fact that Hitler demanded more than just Danzig?

Are you disabled? I already explained to you the full deal.
zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
In October 1938, German Foreign Minister Joachim Ribbentrop presented Poland with the proposition of renewing the Pact in exchange for allowing the Free City of Danzig to be annexed by Germany and the construction of an extraterritorial motorway and railway through the Polish Corridor, with Germany accepting Poland's postwar borders. Poland refused.

Hitler's 16 points: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/167317882
Hitler had no intention to keeping to his 16 points.
All through the spring and summer of 1939 there was a massive media campaign in Germany demanding the immediate return of the Free City of Danzig to Germany under the slogan "Home to the Reich!". However, the Danzig crisis was a just a pretext for war. Ribbentrop ordered Count Hans-Adolf von Moltke, the German ambassador to Poland, not to negotiate with the Poles over Danzig as it was always Ribbentrop's great fear that the Poles might actually agree to the Free City returning to Germany, thereby depriving the Reich out of its pretext for attacking Poland. However, the German propaganda that all the Reich wanted was to bring Danzig home did some effect abroad. In April 1943, when mass grave of the Polish officers massacred by the NKVD in Katyn Wood was discovered, the Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King wrote in his diary that it was the Poles who caused the outbreak of the war in 1939 by refusing to give in to Hitler's demand that Danzig be allowed to rejoin Germany, and as such it was the Poles' own fault for the Katyn Wood massacre and everything else they had suffered since 1939. The British historian Victor Rothwell described King's view that the Poles had caused their own suffering as one motivated by spite and his resentment at being pressured by public opinion into declaring war on Germany despite his own inclinations towards neutrality. From distant New Zealand, the Prime Minister Michael Joseph Savage offered to return New Zealand Samoa, which had once been the colony of German Samoa together with the rest of the former German islands in the Pacific held by New Zealand, in exchange for Germany promising not to use violence to alter the status of Danzig.

However, in 1938, the Reich government had first demanded autonomy for the Sudetenland region and after Prague had conceded the demand for autonomy, had laid claim to the Sudetenland. On 15 March 1939, Germany had occupied the Czech part of Czecho-Slovakia, which had done immense damage to Hitler's claim that he was only trying to undo an "unjust" Treaty of Versailles by bringing all of the ethnic Germans "home to the Reich". The British Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax late in August 1939 told Herbert von Dirksen, the German ambassador in London:

“Last year the German government put forward the demand for the Sudetenland on purely racial grounds; but subsequent events proved that this demand was only put forward as a cover for the annihilation of Czechoslovakia. In view of this experience… it is not surprising that the Poles and we ourselves are afraid that the demand for Danzig is only a first move towards the destruction of Poland’s independence”.

Tensions escalated into the Danzig crisis during the summer of 1939. F.M Shepard, the British consul in Danzig, reported that the Danzig Nazis were bringing arms from Germany and building fortifications. In July 1939, the British government reluctantly extended its "guarantee" of Poland to the status of Free City of Danzig, stating a German attempt to take Danzig would be a casus belli. At the beginning of August, the Senate told Warsaw that henceforward the Free City would not longer recognize the authority of Polish customs officers in Danzig, which led Beck in response to warn that the Senate did not have the right to disregard the terms of the Treaty of Versailles and that the German government also did not have the right to speak for Danzig. Much to the chagrin of the British Foreign Office, Warsaw did not to consult Britain first when it issued a warning that the Polish Air Force would bomb Danzig if the authority of Polish customs officers continued to be ignored. The Senate backed down while the British who were informed after the fact of the Polish decision to confront the Free City were thrown into panic over the possibility of an armed clash in Danzig plunging Europe into war. The British ambassador to Poland, Sir Howard William Kennard, sought in vain for a promise from Colonel Beck that Poland would take no action in Danzig without first obtaining British approval. Beck disliked Kennard and kept him in the dark about what Poland would do if Danzig voted to rejoin Germany, but also about the state of German-Polish relations, much to the vexation of the Foreign Office.

In the middle of August, Beck offered a concession, saying that Poland was willing to give up its control of Danzig's customs, a proposal which caused fury in Berlin. However, the leaders of the Free City sent a message to Berlin on 19 August 1939 saying: "Gauleiter Forster intends to extend claims...Should the Poles yield again it is intended to increase the claims further in order to make accord impossible". The same day a telegram from Berlin expressed approval with the proviso: "Discussions will have to be conducted and pressure exerted against Poland in such a way that responsibility for failure to come to an agreement and the consequences rest with Poland". On 23 August 1939, Albert Forster, the Gauleiter of Danzig, called a meeting of the Senate that voted to have the Free City rejoin Germany, raising tensions to the breaking point. The same meeting appointed Forster the Danzig State President, through this was due to Forster's long-running rivalry with Arthur Greiser, a völkisch fanatic who regarded Forster as too soft on the Poles. Both the appointment of Forster as State President and the resolution calling for the Free City to rejoin the Reich were violations of the charter the League of Nations had given Danzig in 1920, and the matter should have been taken to the League of Nations's Security Council for discussion.

Since these violations of the Danzig charter would have resulted in the League deposing the Danzig's Nazi government, both the French and British prevented the matter from being referred to the Security Council. Instead the British and French applied strong pressure on the Poles not to sent in a military force to depose the Danzig government, and appoint a mediator to resolve the crisis. In the meantime, the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein had arrived in Danzig. Upon anchoring in Danzig harbor, the Schleswig-Holstein ominously aimed its guns at the Polish Military Depot on the Westerplatte peninsula in a provocative gesture that further raised the tensions in the Free City.

At about 4:48am on 1 September 1939, the Schleswig-Holstein opened fire on the Westerplatte, firing the first shots of World War II.
Your claim that Hitler was wanting to negotiate with the Poles is utter BS. The order to invade Poland had already been given!
When Ambassador Józef Lipski went to see Ribbentrop on August 30, he was presented with Hitler’s demands. However, he did not have the full power to sign and Ribbentrop ended the meeting. News was then broadcast that Poland had rejected Germany's offer.
German-Soviet relations is a completely separate topic.

If you read my last post, the reality is Hitler requested a Polish emissary in Berlin on August 29 to negotiate and reach an agreement. He would've been bound to his 16 points he originally proposed. That emissary never showed up.
No, it is not. The Nazis and Soviets divided Poland up with the pact and a secret protocol. If Hitler had only been interested in Danzig, why had he already agreed to annexing more than that with the Soviets?

I've already explained to you:
On 29 August, prompted by the British, Germany issued one last diplomatic offer, with Fall Weiss yet to be rescheduled. That evening, the German government responded in a communication that it aimed not only for the restoration of Danzig but also the Polish Corridor (which had not previously been part of Hitler’s demands) in addition to the safeguarding of the German minority in Poland. It said that they were willing to commence negotiations, but indicated that a Polish representative with the power to sign an agreement had to arrive in Berlin the next day while in the meantime it would draw up a set of proposals. The British Cabinet was pleased that negotiations had been agreed to but, mindful of how Emil Hácha had been forced to sign his country away under similar circumstances just months earlier, regarded the requirement for an immediate arrival of a Polish representative with full signing powers as an unacceptable ultimatum. On the night of 30/31 August, German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop read a 16-point German proposal to the British ambassador. When the ambassador requested a copy of the proposals for transmission to the Polish government, Ribbentrop refused, on the grounds that the requested Polish representative had failed to arrive by midnight.[44] When Polish Ambassador Lipski went to see Ribbentrop later on 31 August to indicate that Poland was favorably disposed to negotiations, he announced that he did not have the full power to sign, and Ribbentrop dismissed him. It was then broadcast that Poland had rejected Germany's offer, and negotiations with Poland came to an end. Hitler issued orders for the invasion to commence soon afterwards.
zionist-occupation wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:40 pm
Can you prove Forrestal is lying?
The quote lacks any authenticity because there is no evidence that Chamberlain said it or anything even similar to it.
Except the Forrestal Diary IS a primary source you fucking retard...
a primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study.
Yes, I was referring to the "other source of information". Apart from what Forrestal wrote in his diary, is there any other information that can verify that Chamberlain said anything like what Forrestal claimed?

From the same Wikipedia article:
However, a primary source is not necessarily more of an authority or better than a secondary source. There can be bias and tacit unconscious views which twist historical information.

"Original material may be... prejudiced, or at least not exactly what it claims to be."

— David Iredale
Do you know of any other sources that state Chamberlain said such a thing?

Why should I bother replying to someone that called me a "fucking retard"? I think you're beginning to show your true colours.
You're showing your hypocrisy again. It's funny because you're the one that refuses to believe Goring because it contradicts your view on WW2.
Except it does not, he used the threat of bombing Prague.

You wrote:
So, Prague was never at the risk of being being bombed and Goring made the statement out of his own initiative to "accelerate the whole matter". Goring was talking out of his ass, isolated incident. Goring wasn't even in the room when Hacha and Hitler spoke.
How do you know he was not in the same room?

Kershaw wrote:
Göring intervened to add that his Luftwaffe would be over Prague by dawn, and it was in Hácha's hands whether bombs fell on the beautiful city.
Göring said:
And in that connection I made the statement that I should be sorry if I had to bomb beautiful Prague. The intention of bombing Prague did not exist, nor had any order been given to that effect, for even in the case of resistance that would not have been necessary -- resistance could always be broken more easily without such bombing. But a point like that might, I thought, serve as an argument and accelerate the whole matter.
There are no contradictions, he threatened to bomb Prague if the Czechs fired at the invading Germans.
I don't care about mainstream history or historians because they have an agenda. I care about reality, I've already seen the mainstream perspective.
It is people like you that have an agenda, you cherry pick evidence to suit your agenda and beliefs.

"I care about reality" - Do you deny that Hitler started WW2?
Keep squirming...

Except you never provided a date at all. All you said is that the Poles refused to accept Germany's offer because of the fate of Czechoslovakia, that not true because they refused to negotiate before Czechoslovakia had even been occupied.

Czechoslovakia was never the reason.
Keep twisting what I post. It is very simple, Polish leaders feared for the loss of independence and sovereignty of Poland after the fate of Czechoslovakia since it had yielded the Sudetenland in October 1939 only to be invaded in March 1939.

Of course it was - by August 1939 Hitler had proven himself to be a liar.
You're just moving the goalposts now and even then for the dissolution of Czechoslovakia to be reason doesn't make sense because the Poles themselves also took part in that dissolution.
I have always stated after he invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia.
So they declined because they didn't want their government to be overthrown? How does this not also play a factor in Poland denying Germany's offers in 1939??

You're just proving my point.
Why do you have such trouble understanding why the Poles knew not to trust Hitler?

Even in October 1938 the Nazis were demanding to annex Danzig. Demanding and negotiating are two separate things.
Nah, you moved the goal posts as I've already shown you. Again bringing up Czechoslovakia after I explained it to you a million times.
Erm, yes. In October 1938 the Germans managed to annex the Sudetenland and then decided to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia in March 1939. Thus, Hitler could not be trusted.
Furthermore, according to Goring's conversation with Henderson, Hacha agreed and needed to give the confirmation to Prague but there was difficulty trying to reach them.

According to him Dr. Hacha had from the first been prepared to sign everything but had said that constitutionally he could not do so without reference first to Prague. After considerable difficulty telephonic communication with Prague was obtained and the Czech Government had agreed

This all according to people who were actually there.
Did you even bother to read the text by Kershaw?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3498&start=140#p136873

The Germans were going to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia whether Hácha agreed or not.
Atleast you finally admit that it was Hacha that requested the interview... Again, what's the primary source that Hacha was kept waiting on purpose?
I have never denied he requested the interview. However, he requested it because he was faced with the imminent dissolution of Czechoslovakia.

Kershaw cited Keitel's memoir.
All this one does is Hitler this , Hitler that, Goebbels said this blah blah blah. Does not give any evidence but makes rash statements as though they were important. Seems to think the Reich was a one man band.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by zionist-occupation » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:07 pm

Sinking so low you're just copy-pasting Wikipedia articles LOL
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Is that all you can say to the fact that Hitler demanded more than just Danzig?
I don't see how a highway makes the deal any less reasonable... You're clutching at straws right now.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Your claim that Hitler was wanting to negotiate with the Poles is utter BS. The order to invade Poland had already been given!

When Ambassador Józef Lipski went to see Ribbentrop on August 30, he was presented with Hitler’s demands. However, he did not have the full power to sign and Ribbentrop ended the meeting. News was then broadcast that Poland had rejected Germany's offer.
Hitler requested to Henderson a Polish emissary to Berlin so he could propose his 16 points. Henderson said that would be UNREASONABLE. The Polish emissary that Hitler requested NEVER SHOWED UP.

On the topic Lipski:
Henderson, who had claimed not to know what the 16 points contained, nevertheless informed Lipski on the 31 about them. Lipski paled and told him that he was not interested in German notes. He (Henderson) was well informed, had connections to Göring and other important people and was certain that should war break out Germany would decent into turmoil, allowing Polish troops to march into Berlin (Dahlerus, Der letzte Versuch, S.110).
Diplomat in Berlin page 572:
DOCUMENT 161 Beck to Lipski
Warsaw, August 31, 1939
Telephonogram to the Polish
Ambassador in Berlin
With reference to your reports, please request an interview with the Minister of Foreign Affairs or the Secretary of State, and inform him as follows:
Last night the Polish government was informed by the British government of an exchange of views with the Reich government as to the possibility of direct understanding between the Polish and the German governments.
The Polish government is favorably considering the British government’s suggestion and will make them a formal reply on the subject in the next few hours at the latest.
End of declaration for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Next passage for the Ambassador’s information.
Please do not engage in any concrete discussions, and if the Germans put forward any concrete demands, say you are not authorized to accept or discuss them and will have to ask your government for further instructions.
Lipski under orders by Beck is told NOT TO ENGAGE IN ANY SORT OF MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
No, it is not. The Nazis and Soviets divided Poland up with the pact and a secret protocol. If Hitler had only been interested in Danzig, why had he already agreed to annexing more than that with the Soviets?
Except it is a separate topic.

Why Germany Signed The Non Aggression Pact With The USSR (OP):
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7737

Hitler previously offered Poland an anti-Soviet pact to which they declined.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
I've already explained to you:
You haven't though, you're just copy-pasting Wikipedia
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
The quote lacks any authenticity because there is no evidence that Chamberlain said it or anything even similar to it.
You already admitted you can't prove Forrestal was lying. The evidence is the Forrestal Diaries.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Yes, I was referring to the "other source of information". Apart from what Forrestal wrote in his diary, is there any other information that can verify that Chamberlain said anything like what Forrestal claimed?
Nice backpedalling. No, you asked for the primary source. Again the quote comes from Forrestal and you already said you can't prove him lying nor come up with a scenario where Forrestal twists Chamberlain's words so badly.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
What is the "primary source" as you always ask me when I provide a secondary source.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
"Orginal material may be... prejudiced, or at least not exactly what it claims to be."
Proof Forrestal was prejudiced towards Jews and his own country?

I should note he worked for a Jewish founded company called Dillon, Read & Co.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Do you know of any other sources that state Chamberlain said such a thing?
You already admitted you can't prove Forrestal is lying.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Why should I bother replying to someone that called me a "fucking retard"? I think you're beginning to show your true colours.
Says the guy that tries to diagnose people and claim they need medical help for disagreeing with him LOL
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Except it does not, he used the threat of bombing Prague.
Except the Czech government had ALREADY ACCEPTED BEFORE HE MADE HIS COMMENT.
According to him Dr. Hacha had from the first been prepared to sign everything but had said that constitutionally he could not do so without reference first to Prague. After considerable difficulty telephonic communication with Prague was obtained and the Czech Government had agreed
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
How do you know he was not in the same room?
Fucking read...
First he conversed with the Fuehrer alone; then we were called in.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
There are no contradictions, he threatened to bomb Prague if the Czechs fired at the invading Germans.
Read my damn posts, Goring provides more insight...
According to him Dr. Hacha had from the first been prepared to sign everything but had said that constitutionally he could not do so without reference first to Prague. After considerable difficulty telephonic communication with Prague was obtained and the Czech Government had agreed while adding that they could not guarantee that one Czech battalion at least would not fire on the German troops. It was, he said, only at that stage that he had warned Dr. Hacha that, if German lives were lost, he would bombard Prague.
There was a legitimate risk that Germans could've been killed.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
It is people like you that have an agenda, you cherry pick evidence to suit your agenda and beliefs.
I'm not cherry-picking anything. More hypocrisy again, you were the one cherry-picking Hitler's September 26 1938 speech even after I explained the context to you a million times. You don't even know my beliefs.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Keep twisting what I post. It is very simple, Polish leaders feared for the loss of independence and sovereignty of Poland after the fate of Czechoslovakia since it had yielded the Sudetenland in October 1939 only to be invaded in March 1939.
Nah, you never provided a date pure and simple. You just said the reason the Poles declined Germany's offer was over Czechoslovakia. You're just justifiying moving the goalposts to only include after the occupation of Czechoslovakia.
They had witnessed what had happened to the rest of Czechoslovakia and knew Hitler could not keep his word.

The Poles feared that allowing the Nazis to annex Danzig would eventually mean the loss of their sovereignty and independence because of the Nazis record with Czechoslovakia.

They had witnessed what had happened to the rest of Czechoslovakia and knew Hitler could not keep his word.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Of course it was - by August 1939 Hitler had proven himself to be a liar.
At this point I'm used to you bringing up the same points that I've already explained to you.

Keep beating the same dead horse.
Hacha himself requests a meeting, because he probably wanted find a solution on how to deal with the aftermath of the Munich Agreement, his country was collapsing and he couldn't control his minorities. The Germans accept, Hitler felt that the military marching in and establishing a protectorate with Hacha as president would be the best solution. Hacha, most likely tries to propose an alternate solution. After negotiating with Hitler he finally accepts the proposal and signs the paper.
Furthermore, according to Goring's conversation with Henderson, Hacha agreed and needed to give the confirmation to Prague but there was difficulty trying to reach them.
According to him Dr. Hacha had from the first been prepared to sign everything but had said that constitutionally he could not do so without reference first to Prague. After considerable difficulty telephonic communication with Prague was obtained and the Czech Government had agreed
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
I have always stated after he invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia.
Yeah and you claim that was the reason the Poles wouldn't accept Germany's offers, when it actually wasn't because they still denied them before Czechoslovakia had even been occupied. You just moved to goal posts to only include after the occupation of Czechoslovakia, even then I still gave you a reason on how that doesn't make sense.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Why do you have such trouble understanding why the Poles knew not to trust Hitler?
You just dodged my question:
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
zionist-occupation wrote: In October 1938 Ribbentrop demanded the return of Danzig. The reason it was declined was because Jozef Lipski stated that Polish public opinion would not tolerate the Free City joining Germany and predicated that if Warsaw allowed that to happen, then the Sanation military dictatorship that had ruled Poland since 1926 would be overthrown.
So they declined because they didn't want their government to be overthrown? How does this not also play a factor in Poland denying Germany's offers in 1939??
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
Even in October 1938 the Nazis were demanding to annex Danzig. Demanding and negotiating are two separate things.
Did you even read the offer yourself?
On October 23, 1938, Ribbentrop made an offer to the Poles which the British ambassador, Sir Neville Henderson, admitted was reasonable, calling it a "pure League of Nations proposal": Ribbentrop asked for a plebiscite in the Polish corridor; the return of Danzig (a 100% German city) to the Reich, and the construction of an extra-territorial double-track railway and highway across the Corridor to East Prussia, which had previously been separated from the rest of Germany and could only be reached by sea, in defiance of all common sense, that is, a land bridge to East Prussia (X 260-269 [295-304]; 280-281 [317-318]; 367-369 [416-417]).
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
The Germans were going to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia whether Hácha agreed or not.
Already addressed Hitler's reasoning.
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:03 am
I have never denied he requested the interview. However, he requested it because he was faced with the imminent dissolution of Czechoslovakia.

Kershaw cited Keitel's memoir.
Already addressed Czechoslovakia.

Here is what Keitel says:
Keitel wrote:the Führer replied that he was going to let the old gentleman rest and recover for two hours; he would send for him at midnight
Never mentions that Hitler purposely kept him waiting. Hitler sent Hacha to rest for 2 hours, which makes sense because Hacha being an old man was probably tired after the long train ride to Berlin.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by Goody67 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:34 am

I have always stated that by 1939 it was obvious why the Poles did not trust Hitler.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3498&start=30#p135803

You simply tried to twist my words to state that I was referring to October 1938, I was not. I have always said that after Hitler invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia it was obvious why the Poles did not trust Hitler.

With regards to negotiating with the Poles, it was a farce.

Ernst von Weizsäcker on 29 March 1939 told the Danzig government the Reich would carry out a policy to the Zermürbungspolitik (point of destruction) towards Poland, saying a compromise solution was not wanted, and on 5 April 1939 told Hans-Adolf von Moltke under no conditions was he to negotiate with the Poles. Ribbentrop ordered Count Hans-Adolf von Moltke, the German ambassador to Poland, not to negotiate with the Poles over Danzig as it was always Ribbentrop's great fear that the Poles might actually agree to the Free City returning to Germany, thereby depriving the Reich out of its pretext for attacking Poland.

I can't prove Forrestal was lying, but there is no evidence that Chamberlain ever said anything like that and it has not been quoted in any of the biographies of Chamberlain. Apart from Forrestal's anecdote, what evidence is there that Chamberlain ever said such a thing? As far as I know, there is no evidence.

There is no evidence that Göring was not in the same room as Hitler and Hácha. On the contrary, Göring's statement about the threat of bombing Prague correlates to what every respectable historian has written about the event.

At least quote Keitel in the full context:
At ten o'clock [Foreign Secretary] Ribbentrop announced Hacha's arrival at Bellevue Castle; the Führer replied that he was going to let the old gentleman rest and recover for two hours; he would send for him at midnight. That was equally incomprehensible to me; why was he doing that? Was this premeditated, political diplomacy? Hacha of course could not have known that no sooner had dusk fallen that evening, 14th March, than the 'Adolf Hitler' SS-body-guard troops had already invaded the Moravian Ostrau strip to safeguard the modern steel mill at Witkowitz against seizure by the Poles; we still had no reports on how this operation had gone.

Ar midnight Hacha arrived, accompanied by his Foreign Secretary [Chvalkovsky] and the Czech Minister in Berlin [Mastny]; they were received by Hitler and a large company in the Führer's study at the new Reich Chancellery building. Göring was there as well. After an introductory dialogue, during which Hacha delivered himself of a long-winded description of his career in the Austrian civil service-a situation which in my mental turmoil I again failed to comprehend-Hitler interruped him to say that in view of the lateness of the hour he was obliged to come round to the political questions which were the reasons for Hacha's presence. We were asked to withdraw. Twice I was obliged briefly to interrupt the discussions between the statesmen (I believe that apart from them only Ribbentrop was present, with Hewel to take the minutes). The first occasion was when I had to hand in a brief note I had written to the effect that Witkowitz had been occupied by the Bodyguard troops without a struggle; Hitler read it and nodded his satisfaction. The second time was to deliver a warning about the lateness of the hour; the Army was asking for a final decision on whether they were to march or not. I was dismissed abruptly with the reply that it was still only two o'clock and the order would be issued before four.

Some time later Göring and I were called back in again. The gentlemen were standing round the table and Hitler was telling Hacha that it was up to him what he intended to do; Keitel would confirm that our troops were already on the march and would be crossing the frontier at six o'clock, and he-Hacha-alone had it in his power to decided whether blood would be shed or his country be peacefully occupied. Hacha begged for a respite, as he had to telephone his government in Prague, and could he be given a telephone line to them? Would Hitler see that the troop movements were halted at once? Hitler refused: I would confirm, he said, that it was now impossible as our troops were already approaching the frontier. Before I could open my mouth, Göring intervened to announce that his Air Force would be appearing over Prague at dawn, and he could not change that now; it was up to Hacha whether there would be any bombing or not. Under this great pressue, Hacha explained that he wanted to avoid bloodshed at any cost and turned to me to ask how he could contact his country's garrisons and frontier troops and warm them of the German invasion, so that he could forbid them to open fire.
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rollo the ganger
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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by rollo the ganger » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:29 am

Goody67 wrote:At least quote Keitel in the full context:
Goody67, I'm not quite sure of what point you are making here. I'm not going to repeat what was written after you said this but are you saying Keitel said this or what? Just a little clarification please. A link or an explanation of the source would be appreciated also.

An interesting note that an Englishman, Mr. Yeats-Brown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Yeats-Brown) a British Officer in the British Indian Army, noted the attitude of the Germans towards the Danzig and Polish Corridor issue. It must have been common knowledge that the Germans held this attitude towards this issue.
"Germany intends to have Danzig and the Corridor; I have nor brief for her. I deplore the fact that several million Germans would shed their blood for this cause, but since it is a fact, and since the Poles certainly cannot be talked out of their territory, how will the matter be settled except by arms? I believe there must be a war in Europe; the best we can hope for is that it will soon be over, and that it will not spread."
This comment wasn't made in 1939 or even 1938. The preceeding statement, by Mr. Yeats-Brown, appeared in the September 1932 number of The Spectator.

1932. The year before Hitler even became Chancellor. For someone to say this issue was part of a plan concocted by Hitler to "Conquer the World", or whatever, is absolutely disingenuous. It was an issue that had been festering since 1919. It also wasn't a matter of the Poles not trusting Hitler and therefore chose not to negotiate with him. It was known for some time the Poles were adamant about not negotiating with ANY German, ever, on the matter of Danzig and the Polish Corridor as the statement above by Yeats-Brown reveals.

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Re: Rydz-Smigly: the Man who started WW2

Post by Goody67 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:57 am

rollo the ganger wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:29 am
Goody67 wrote:At least quote Keitel in the full context:
Goody67, I'm not quite sure of what point you are making here. I'm not going to repeat what was written after you said this but are you saying Keitel said this or what? Just a little clarification please. A link or an explanation of the source would be appreciated also.
Yes, Keitel wrote what I quoted, it's in his memoir.

What evidence do you have that Göring was not in the room when Hitler and Hacha were talking?

Göring told Hacha that he either allowed the Germans to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia without any Czechs retaliating or Prague would be bombed.
An interesting note that an Englishman, Mr. Yeats-Brown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Yeats-Brown) a British Officer in the British Indian Army, noted the attitude of the Germans towards the Danzig and Polish Corridor issue. It must have been common knowledge that the Germans held this attitude towards this issue.
"Germany intends to have Danzig and the Corridor; I have nor brief for her. I deplore the fact that several million Germans would shed their blood for this cause, but since it is a fact, and since the Poles certainly cannot be talked out of their territory, how will the matter be settled except by arms? I believe there must be a war in Europe; the best we can hope for is that it will soon be over, and that it will not spread."
This comment wasn't made in 1939 or even 1938. The preceeding statement, by Mr. Yeats-Brown, appeared in the September 1932 number of The Spectator.

1932. The year before Hitler even became Chancellor. For someone to say this issue was part of a plan concocted by Hitler to "Conquer the World", or whatever, is absolutely disingenuous. It was an issue that had been festering since 1919. It also wasn't a matter of the Poles not trusting Hitler and therefore chose not to negotiate with him. It was known for some time the Poles were adamant about not negotiating with ANY German, ever, on the matter of Danzig and the Polish Corridor as the statement above by Yeats-Brown reveals.
You have created a straw man.

You're putting words into my mouth. When have I ever posted that Hitler wanted to conquer the world? :? You're the one being disingenuous.

The Germans were also not interested in negotiating with the Poles, read my last post.

Do you think Hitler was honestly only going to annex Danzig? Also, how was Hitler going to gain Lebensraum in the East?
Deniers are a few bricks short of a load.

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