The Dutch Jews

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Nessie
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:06 pm

Charles Traynor wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:21 am
Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:25 am


It is a lie to say there is no evidence of gassing. There are witnesses to gassings. At Sobibor, the building described as the gas chamber has been found where witnesses said it was located. That is evidence of gassings. Disagreeing with or disbelieving that evidence does not mean it is no longer evidence.

It would be truthful for you to say that you do not believe the evidence. It is a lie to say there is no evidence.
Stop misleading our readers Nessie, there were no "survivors" on site telling Sturdy Colls where to dig.
I never said there was.
The area where excavations took place was dictated by her Lidar survey.
Plus past witness testimony and the other surveys at the camp to identify underground structures and where remains are.
There is NO evidence of gassings at Sobibor!
YES there is.
In the Channel 5 documentary covering the fraudulent archaeological survey of Treblinka carried out by Caroline Sturdy Colls and her team it was claimed samples were taken from an alleged gas chamber which were to be tested later under laboratory conditions.

Narrator:
The bricks, tiles and concrete discovered at the extermination camp will now be tested for chemicals to better understand what happened here.
The Treblinka Archaeology Hoax, (2014), 01:08:00

In her magnum opus CSC wrote:
Chemical testing may also be carried out on building materials recovered from Holocaust sites. Most commonly, this has been conducted using methods such as Fourier Transform Infrared Spectrometry (FTIR) in order to determine the presence of Zyklon B or carbon monoxide in gas chamber remnants (Markiewicz et al. 1994; Sturdy Colls 2014a).
Holocaust Archaeologies, Caroline Sturdy Colls, p.193

Why have those test results been suppressed by the forces of exterminationism?

If the tiles really had been part of a structure which had existed at Treblinka II (and this is yet to be proven). I would suggest a reasonable and commonsense explanation for their existence would be that they had belonged to a shower block or storeroom. You fellows have had over 70 years to present some objective proof of your homicidal gassings claim. How much longer must we wait to see this evidence?
Off topic.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Werd » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:56 am

Unless deniers can evidence the mass transports of those not selected to work out of the AR camps, then by process of elimination alone, the evidence they were gassed stands as the only evidenced alternative.
Or they were moved out and not traced and followed up on. Nessie always excludes the third option. He does it all the time with no justification. Jews can be missing and not murdered.

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Trolljegeren
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Trolljegeren » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:06 am

Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:56 am
Unless deniers can evidence the mass transports of those not selected to work out of the AR camps, then by process of elimination alone, the evidence they were gassed stands as the only evidenced alternative.
Or they were moved out and not traced and followed up on. Nessie always excludes the third option. He does it all the time with no justification. Jews can be missing and not murdered.
I contend that they never arrived in the first place, the evidence points that some were dropped off, the sick and elderly and the train carried on to the other camps.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Trolljegeren » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:35 am

VFX said
Raul Hilberg who wrote three volumes on the Einsatz camps called The Destruction of the European Jews says this.
There were no "selections"made at the three Operation Reinhard camps,(Treblinka,Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno ). He mentioned four but who cares. All the Jews who were sent to these camps, with the exception of a few who escaped, were immediately killed in gas chambers. There were no records kept of their deaths...Raul Hilberg Reinhart Camps
Now let us look at some of those Dutch survivors again here Sobibor Survivors

Alex Cohen stated in 1947. The men were immediately separated from the women and children. The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selectedmen were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp. In the meantime the other prisoners had been led into Sobibor.

Judith Eliazar and Bertha Ensel Westerbork to Sobibor in East Poland. They were there for only a brief period. ‘We were selected; 30 girls and 44 men were removed from the transport,’

Sophia Huisman. Upon arrival some thirty young women and a similar number of men were selected for work elsewhere. ‘Camp Sobibor was an extermination camp,’

Ursula Sternbut first they were to bathe’. Ursula and the others who had been selected to work in the camp waited for half an hour and were then brought into the camp. Sobibor. On arrival dozens of girls and men were selected, as usual, to work in the camp. ‘We were selected right away,’ Ursula stated in 1947. The elderly and disabled were immediately hauled on to tippers and removed,

I think one may see the dilemma here, if you could explain why the author says no selections and yet all of these alleged witness clearly say there were. Who do we believe. I suggest none of them.

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Nessie
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:23 am

Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:56 am
Unless deniers can evidence the mass transports of those not selected to work out of the AR camps, then by process of elimination alone, the evidence they were gassed stands as the only evidenced alternative.
Or they were moved out and not traced and followed up on. Nessie always excludes the third option. He does it all the time with no justification. Jews can be missing and not murdered.
Sticking to Sobibor, irrespective of what option is mooted, they need to be moved out of the camp. They cannot have been accommodated, they had to have left.

Going by the Hofle telegram up to the end of 1942 that means 101,370 left the camp. The Dutch Jews in 1943 add another 34,313, a total of 135,683 people.

How can so many people leave Sobibor and that results in no evidence at all? No witnesses, no documents, no nothing?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Trolljegeren » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:28 am

Nessie wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:23 am

Going by the Hofle telegram up to the end of 1942 that means 101,370 left the camp. The Dutch Jews in 1943 add another 34,313, a total of 135,683 people.

How can so many people leave Sobibor and that results in no evidence at all? No witnesses, no documents, no nothing?
Now you are asking genuine questions which we all can help with. I think people have been trying to tell you that they never arrived.
I know VFX is claiming there were hospitals and stuff, but the truth is no one really knows. Seems to be like Atlantis; much talk and no solutions.

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Nessie
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:32 am

Trolljegeren wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:06 am
Werd wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:56 am
Unless deniers can evidence the mass transports of those not selected to work out of the AR camps, then by process of elimination alone, the evidence they were gassed stands as the only evidenced alternative.
Or they were moved out and not traced and followed up on. Nessie always excludes the third option. He does it all the time with no justification. Jews can be missing and not murdered.
I contend that they never arrived in the first place,
The evidence people arrived is from ghetto and transit camp records such as Westerbork recording transports to Sobibor

http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/sobi ... orts1.html

The Hofle Telegram which recorded arrivals up to the end of 1942

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram

Witnesses from the transports themselves and who worked at Sobibor.

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/ned ... erlevenden
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/sobibor.html
the evidence points that some were dropped off, the sick and elderly and the train carried on to the other camps.
Please show that evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Trolljegeren » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:36 am

Your bloody eyewitness say so... how many times do you need to be told to stop asking the same stupid questions. The idea of a forum is not constant talk: this is not an IRC chat channel ffs. Read what people have to say, consider it, do your research and come back with something better. Constant bantering like you do is just clogging the forum and means nothing.. No one wants to read this shit. Seriously. You do not see NSDAP bantering back to you.

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Nessie
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:38 am

Trolljegeren wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:35 am
VFX said
Raul Hilberg who wrote three volumes on the Einsatz camps called The Destruction of the European Jews says this.
There were no "selections"made at the three Operation Reinhard camps,(Treblinka,Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno ). He mentioned four but who cares. All the Jews who were sent to these camps, with the exception of a few who escaped, were immediately killed in gas chambers. There were no records kept of their deaths...Raul Hilberg Reinhart Camps
You have quoted what the site Scrapbookpages said, not what Hilberg said.
Now let us look at some of those Dutch survivors again here Sobibor Survivors

Alex Cohen stated in 1947. The men were immediately separated from the women and children. The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selectedmen were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp. In the meantime the other prisoners had been led into Sobibor.

Judith Eliazar and Bertha Ensel Westerbork to Sobibor in East Poland. They were there for only a brief period. ‘We were selected; 30 girls and 44 men were removed from the transport,’

Sophia Huisman. Upon arrival some thirty young women and a similar number of men were selected for work elsewhere. ‘Camp Sobibor was an extermination camp,’

Ursula Sternbut first they were to bathe’. Ursula and the others who had been selected to work in the camp waited for half an hour and were then brought into the camp. Sobibor. On arrival dozens of girls and men were selected, as usual, to work in the camp. ‘We were selected right away,’ Ursula stated in 1947. The elderly and disabled were immediately hauled on to tippers and removed,

I think one may see the dilemma here, if you could explain why the author says no selections and yet all of these alleged witness clearly say there were. Who do we believe. I suggest none of them.
Scrapbookpages has made a mistake and thought there were no selections at the AR camps. Odd, considering Scrapbookpages elsewhere discusses the selection process at Birkenau. But it is a huge topic and historians and others recording what happened sometimes get it wrong.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:39 am

Trolljegeren wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:28 am
Nessie wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:23 am

Going by the Hofle telegram up to the end of 1942 that means 101,370 left the camp. The Dutch Jews in 1943 add another 34,313, a total of 135,683 people.

How can so many people leave Sobibor and that results in no evidence at all? No witnesses, no documents, no nothing?
Now you are asking genuine questions which we all can help with. I think people have been trying to tell you that they never arrived.
I know VFX is claiming there were hospitals and stuff, but the truth is no one really knows. Seems to be like Atlantis; much talk and no solutions.
I have just provided various sources that evidence there were mass arrivals at Sobibor.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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