The Dutch Jews

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Nessie
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:57 am

It is a case of that is way off topic. Back on topic is the lack of evidence of Dutch Jews leaving the camp en masse, when if they had, it would mean tens of thousands of witnesses. But there are none.

No denier has ever satisfactorily explained that.

The reason why is because the lack of evidence is due to it not happening. The Dutch did not leave en masse.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Henry » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:19 am

Dodging the fact that the "evidence" failed the Jews at Nuremberg and the Jewish case was rejected.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:44 am

Henry wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:19 am
Dodging the fact that the "evidence" failed the Jews at Nuremberg and the Jewish case was rejected.
Start a thread on that topic and I will respond there. The moderation is strict about staying topic, please respect that. On topic, Karl Frenzel was convicted of his role at Sobibor at a trial in Germany in 1965.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Frenzel

He admitted Sobibor was a place of killing and used the acting under orders defence;

"As I already pointed out, under the prevailing war conditions, which are now difficult to comprehend, I unfortunately believed that what was going on in Sobibor was lawful. To my regret, I was then convinced of its necessity. I was shocked that just during the war, when I wanted to serve my homeland, I had to be in such a terrible extermination camp. But then I thought very often about the enemy bomber pilots, who surely were not asked whether they wanted to carry out their murderous flights against German people in their homes in such a manner."

He was also interviewed by survivor Toivi Blatt and stated;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobib%C3% ... the_revolt

"Poles were not killed there. Gypsies were not killed there. Russians were not killed there... only Jews, Russian Jews, Polish Jews, Dutch Jews, French Jews."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/in ... supervisor

"When Blatt asked whether the murder of 250,000 Jews was his duty, Frenzel replied: “We had to do our duty. I am sorry about what happened there, but I cannot make what’s done undone. I would like to ask the forgiveness of all of them. The things that have stayed with you have also stayed with me. And I too, have often thought about it, about justice and injustice, and I have to the conclusion that what happened then was an injustice. I condemn that time.”
Frenzel continued to try and humanize himself to his former victim: “I beg you to see me from a different perspective, other than Sobibor. I have much on my conscience, many human lives. Not one, no – 100,000 human lives are on my conscience.”

Now, if there had been mass transports of the Dutch Jews back out of the camp, why did Frenzel not use that as his defence? Why did he use acting under orders and admit the Jews were killed there?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:54 am

Another tried in Germany (in 1966) for his role at Sobibor was Erich Fuchs;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fuchs

"Sometime in the spring of 1942 I received instructions from Wirth to fetch new camp staff from Lublin by lorry. One of these was Erich Bauer (also Stangl and one or two other people) ... On Wirth's instructions I left by lorry for Lemberg and collected a gassing engine there which I then took to Sobibor.

Upon arriving in Sobibor I discovered a piece of open ground close to the station on which there was a concrete building and several other permanent buildings. The SS-Sonderkommando at Sobibor was led by Thomalla. Amongst the SS personnel there were Floss, Bauer, Stangl, Schwarz, Barbl and others. We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy, Russian petrol engine (presumably a tank or tractor engine) of at least 200 HP (carburettor engine, eight-cylinder, water-cooled). We put the engine on a concrete plinth and attached a pipe to the exhaust outlet. Then we tried out the engine. At first it did not work. I repaired the ignition and the valve and suddenly the engine started. The chemist whom I already knew from Belzec went into the gas chamber with a measuring device in order to measure the gas concentration.

After this a test gassing was carried out. I seem to remember that thirty to forty women were gassed in a gas chamber. The Jewesses had to undress in a clearing in the wood which had been roofed over, near the gas chamber. They were herded into the gas chamber by the above-mentioned SS members and Ukrainian volunteers. When the women had been shut up in the gas chamber I attended to the engine together with Bauer. The engine immediately started ticking over. We both stood next to the engine and switched it up to "release exhaust to chamber" so that the gases were channelled into the chamber. On the instigation of the chemist I revved up the engine, which meant that no extra gas had to be added later. After about ten minutes the thirty to forty women were dead. The chemist and the SS gave the signal to turn off the engine"
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:59 am

None of the following used as a defence that the Jews had been sent onwards from Sobibor in mass transports;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobib%C3%B3r_trial

Image

Why was that? The answer is because it did not happen.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Henry » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am

Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:54 am
Another tried in Germany (in 1966) for his role at Sobibor was Erich Fuchs;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fuchs

"Sometime in the spring of 1942 I received instructions from Wirth to fetch new camp staff from Lublin by lorry. One of these was Erich Bauer (also Stangl and one or two other people) ... On Wirth's instructions I left by lorry for Lemberg and collected a gassing engine there which I then took to Sobibor.

Upon arriving in Sobibor I discovered a piece of open ground close to the station on which there was a concrete building and several other permanent buildings. The SS-Sonderkommando at Sobibor was led by Thomalla. Amongst the SS personnel there were Floss, Bauer, Stangl, Schwarz, Barbl and others. We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy, Russian petrol engine (presumably a tank or tractor engine) of at least 200 HP (carburettor engine, eight-cylinder, water-cooled). We put the engine on a concrete plinth and attached a pipe to the exhaust outlet. Then we tried out the engine. At first it did not work. I repaired the ignition and the valve and suddenly the engine started. The chemist whom I already knew from Belzec went into the gas chamber with a measuring device in order to measure the gas concentration.

After this a test gassing was carried out. I seem to remember that thirty to forty women were gassed in a gas chamber. The Jewesses had to undress in a clearing in the wood which had been roofed over, near the gas chamber. They were herded into the gas chamber by the above-mentioned SS members and Ukrainian volunteers. When the women had been shut up in the gas chamber I attended to the engine together with Bauer. The engine immediately started ticking over. We both stood next to the engine and switched it up to "release exhaust to chamber" so that the gases were channelled into the chamber. On the instigation of the chemist I revved up the engine, which meant that no extra gas had to be added later. After about ten minutes the thirty to forty women were dead. The chemist and the SS gave the signal to turn off the engine"
You left out some info from your own source...
Fuchs was put on trial at the Bełżec Trial in Munich 1963-64, for which he was acquitted. Fuchs was rearrested and tried at the Sobibor Trial in Hagen. He was charged with participation in the mass murder of approximately 3,600 Jews. On 20 December 1966, Fuchs was found guilty of being an accessory to the mass murder of at least 79,000 Jews and sentenced to four years imprisonment
Only 4 years for the murder of 79,000 Jews!!!....My word, didn't he do well.

During his 'trial' (according to your source) he even found time for some romance...
Fuchs was married for the sixth time during the trial. Fuchs died on July 25, 1980 at the age of 78
How sweet...lol

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Henry » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:50 am

So we have 12 tried with 6 acquitted and 2 not sentenced. That leaves 4 found guilty of mudering tens of thousands of people. yet the sentences don't reflect the enormity of the alleged crime. One given life but released after 16 years. one given 8 years but look at this...
Sentenced to eight years in prison, Wolf, age 58 (at the time of his arrest), likely served at least a part of the sentence. This is all that is known about him,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Wolf_(SS_officer)
Two given 4 years and one given 3 years...Even the benign Ernst Zundell managed squeeze more prison time out of the German courts!

Given my knowledge of the background to these trials and some of the characters involved you really should have some sympathy for my cynicism.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:49 am

Henry wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:54 am
Another tried in Germany (in 1966) for his role at Sobibor was Erich Fuchs;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fuchs

"Sometime in the spring of 1942 I received instructions from Wirth to fetch new camp staff from Lublin by lorry. One of these was Erich Bauer (also Stangl and one or two other people) ... On Wirth's instructions I left by lorry for Lemberg and collected a gassing engine there which I then took to Sobibor.

Upon arriving in Sobibor I discovered a piece of open ground close to the station on which there was a concrete building and several other permanent buildings. The SS-Sonderkommando at Sobibor was led by Thomalla. Amongst the SS personnel there were Floss, Bauer, Stangl, Schwarz, Barbl and others. We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy, Russian petrol engine (presumably a tank or tractor engine) of at least 200 HP (carburettor engine, eight-cylinder, water-cooled). We put the engine on a concrete plinth and attached a pipe to the exhaust outlet. Then we tried out the engine. At first it did not work. I repaired the ignition and the valve and suddenly the engine started. The chemist whom I already knew from Belzec went into the gas chamber with a measuring device in order to measure the gas concentration.

After this a test gassing was carried out. I seem to remember that thirty to forty women were gassed in a gas chamber. The Jewesses had to undress in a clearing in the wood which had been roofed over, near the gas chamber. They were herded into the gas chamber by the above-mentioned SS members and Ukrainian volunteers. When the women had been shut up in the gas chamber I attended to the engine together with Bauer. The engine immediately started ticking over. We both stood next to the engine and switched it up to "release exhaust to chamber" so that the gases were channelled into the chamber. On the instigation of the chemist I revved up the engine, which meant that no extra gas had to be added later. After about ten minutes the thirty to forty women were dead. The chemist and the SS gave the signal to turn off the engine"
You left out some info from your own source...
Fuchs was put on trial at the Bełżec Trial in Munich 1963-64, for which he was acquitted. Fuchs was rearrested and tried at the Sobibor Trial in Hagen. He was charged with participation in the mass murder of approximately 3,600 Jews. On 20 December 1966, Fuchs was found guilty of being an accessory to the mass murder of at least 79,000 Jews and sentenced to four years imprisonment
Only 4 years for the murder of 79,000 Jews!!!....My word, didn't he do well.

During his 'trial' (according to your source) he even found time for some romance...
Fuchs was married for the sixth time during the trial. Fuchs died on July 25, 1980 at the age of 78
How sweet...lol
So, not tortured, not coerced, he admits to gassing people. No wonder when I started a thread of Fuchs it was ignored.

Now you know what happened to the Dutch Jews.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:52 am

Henry wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:50 am
So we have 12 tried with 6 acquitted and 2 not sentenced. That leaves 4 found guilty of mudering tens of thousands of people. yet the sentences don't reflect the enormity of the alleged crime. One given life but released after 16 years. one given 8 years but look at this...
Sentenced to eight years in prison, Wolf, age 58 (at the time of his arrest), likely served at least a part of the sentence. This is all that is known about him,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Wolf_(SS_officer)
Two given 4 years and one given 3 years...Even the benign Ernst Zundell managed squeeze more prison time out of the German courts!

Given my knowledge of the background to these trials and some of the characters involved you really should have some sympathy for my cynicism.
No. Your cynicism has no basis in evidence. Now you will understand my cynicism for the unevidenced claims of the deniers.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The Dutch Jews

Post by Huntinger » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:28 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:52 am

No. Your cynicism has no basis in evidence. Now you will understand my cynicism for the unevidenced claims of the deniers.
I think you had better get off this constant evidencing crap you use as an argument constantly. It is totally tedious. With all scientific issues the truth is in the probability, the chances of A, then B, to determine correlations. To sift through and determine another potential cause. When that is thought to be highly likely then data is collected which may confirm the hypothesis.
The forum here is well above your schoolboy notions of evidence. What we want is relevant data.
Data just exists. Data is immutable or permanent and unchangeable. You can’t challenge the data. There is no such thing as 100% validity or reliability. There is always variation in any measurement or description and these variations can stack up. Due to the variations in components two apparently identical aircraft made next to each other at the same time can vary as much as 10-20% in weight from each other due to the compound effect of the cumulative variation.
Evidence only exists when there is an opinion, a viewpoint or an argument. Data is only evidence in the presence of an opinion or argument, otherwise, it is just data and has no meaning on its own.
In science, empirical evidence is required for a hypothesis to gain acceptance in the scientific community. Normally, this validation is achieved by the scientific method of forming a hypothesis, experimental design, peer review, reproduction of results, conference presentation, and journal publication. This requires rigorous communication of hypothesis (usually expressed in mathematics), experimental constraints and controls (expressed necessarily in terms of standard experimental apparatus), and a common understanding of measurement.

Now people have asked you repeatedly considering your eternal mantra on evidencing exactly what you mean. Otherwise if you cannot clarify this then shut up about the evidencing crap... you were asked to curb it but you have not. We are all sick to death of this excrement.
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