The Dutch Jews

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Nessie
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The Dutch Jews

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:33 am

Trolljegeren wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:13 am
You are attempting to ask impossible questions on irrelevant small details which do not matter in the bigger picture. This is one of your trademarks so to speak. The Global picture is the Soviet Occupation of Eastern Europe, the Iron Curtain and the cold war which stopped all flow of information and instigated propaganda to the extreme.
The detail of what happened to the 33,414 Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943 is very relevant. Same with the Poles sent to TII etc etc.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Huntinger » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:35 am

Nessie wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:33 am
The detail of what happened to the 33,414 Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943 is very relevant. Same with the Poles sent to TII etc etc.
Explain the relevancy in the context of this threads intention without emotional off the cuff stupid comments. Do some research and present it properly please.
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖊 𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖆𝖙𝖘𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 𝖋𝖚̈𝖗 𝖉𝖊𝖓 𝕾𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖗𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖙𝖘𝖉𝖎𝖊𝖓𝖘𝖙

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:38 am

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:35 am
Nessie wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:33 am
The detail of what happened to the 34,313 Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943 is very relevant. Same with the Poles sent to TII etc etc.
Explain the relevancy in the context of this threads intention without emotional off the cuff stupid comments. Do some research and present it properly please.
In the summer of 1943, Dutch Jews were transported to Sobibor. On arrival the majority were gassed. Some were selected to work. Details here;

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/ned ... erlevenden

Deniers claim no one was gassed at Sobibor. The camp was big enough to accommodate them. Where is the evidence they all left and were resettled elsewhere?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Huntinger » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:42 am

Nessie wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:38 am
In the summer of 1943, Dutch Jews were transported to Sobibor. On arrival the majority were gassed. Some were selected to work. Details here;
Deniers claim no one was gassed at Sobibor. The camp was big enough to accommodate them. Where is the evidence they all left and were resettled elsewhere?
This is heard a million times... nothing new here. This IS off topic. The assumption of this thread is that they left and the original poster wants evidence of their resettlement. It is this and only this that will be discussed. In other threads and here the resettlement was integration into the Soviet Union due to occupation by Soviet Forces and expulsion of other military forces.
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖊 𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖆𝖙𝖘𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 𝖋𝖚̈𝖗 𝖉𝖊𝖓 𝕾𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖗𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖙𝖘𝖉𝖎𝖊𝖓𝖘𝖙

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:03 pm

Got any evidence for the resettlement of the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Huntinger » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:06 pm

Nessie wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:03 pm
Got any evidence for the resettlement of the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943?
Those who did not die of disease were obviously sent elsewhere after the escape. Most likely all were assimilated into the Soviet Union. I doubt if there was anywhere else for them to go. At the time of closure of the camp they were still interned and could not return to Holland. It is what happened to them after they got over run by the Russians which is the question you should perhaps be asking yourself.
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖊 𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖆𝖙𝖘𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 𝖋𝖚̈𝖗 𝖉𝖊𝖓 𝕾𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖗𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖙𝖘𝖉𝖎𝖊𝖓𝖘𝖙

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Huntinger » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:14 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:35 am
I agree, this does appear to be the 'Achilles heel' of revisionism, if we accept the figures given for numbers of missing people.

On the face of it there only appears to be two alternatives:
1. either those people were relocated somewhere,
or
2. they were exterminated somehow.

I wonder though if there are other alternative explanations:
I think BT that the word Resettlement has connotations of people being taken back to their homeland. The point is brought up nicely in the Iron Curtain thread, that there was no resettlement, just integration into the Soviet system. The evidence points to the fact that when the camps were taken over by the USSR soldiers, there was no Liberation. It appears that the Soviet guards simply replaced the German guards and kept the camps going for their own purposes..I often wonder what insecticide they used to quench the Typhus. All of the Eastern Europa was in their control as evidenced by the maps given, including Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and so on. All of the leaders were vassals of Stalin and part of the Soviet empire. The nations said to be part of the Soviet Empire (in the wider sense) were officially independent countries with separate governments that set their own policies, but those policies had to remain within certain limits decided by the Soviet Union and enforced by threat of intervention by the Warsaw Pact (Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968 and Poland 1980). Countries in this situation are often called satellite states. Soviet cultural imperialism implied the Sovietization of culture and education at the expense of local traditions.

Many people absorbed into the Soviet Empire were imprisoned, including Jews, and no doubt millions of Jews died under their rule with blame being attributed to the Germans. Blaming the Nazis as at Katyn was a very convenient way politically for the Soviets to hide their own crimes against humanity. It is on this basis that the holocaust was inspired by the Soviets and a construct. Due to the restrictions behind the Iron Curtain it is possible that the Jews themselves thought the Nazis did the killing, when the reality was that apart from war and disease there was no resettlement anywhere just integration.
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖊 𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖆𝖙𝖘𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 𝖋𝖚̈𝖗 𝖉𝖊𝖓 𝕾𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖗𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖙𝖘𝖉𝖎𝖊𝖓𝖘𝖙

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Trolljegeren » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:12 pm

From Henry:
Many Millions of Holocaust Survivors Were Trapped Behind the Iron Curtain



In December 2001, Ambassador JD Bindenagel, Special Representative of the US Department of State for Holocaust Issues, gave this insight to German publisher Die Zeit

"Tragically, many millions of victims of the Holocaust were trapped behind the Iron Curtain in the post-war period. They never got the money that was paid out to their governments. Only after the fall of the wall could they be helped, so Germany established a hardship fund for Jewish victims in the 1990s"

Henry then presents this evidence.
The Netherlands embassy and the interest representation for Israel in the Soviet Union, 1967-1990:

Willing administrator or full agent?



Introduction



On a quiet Sunday during the summer of 1967, the Dutch ambassador in Moscow received a cable from The Hague: his embassy would from then on diplomatically represent Israeli interests in Moscow, because the Soviet Union had broken off its diplomatic ties with Israel as a result of, or punishment for, the Arab-Israeli war of 1967. The Dutch ambassador in Jerusalem received this request from the Israeli Foreign Ministry earlier that day, and The Hague swiftly agreed the same day. Little did the Dutch diplomats know that this commitment would entail a 24-year period during which the Dutch embassy would be responsible for the facilitation of the emigration of over half a million Jewish Soviet citizens through the issuance of visas. The demand for visas was so high at times, that the entire staff had to drop what they were working on in order to jump in and assist at the visa section....

MA thesis, Utrecht University, 2015.

See here: https://dspace.library.uu.nl/bitstream/ ... sAllowed=y

To put this all together: many millions of victims of the Holocaust were trapped behind the Iron Curtain in the post-war period.
In 1967 a half a million Soviet Jews were allowed to emigrate to the Netherlands. which is 15 years after the war ended.
It is reported in The Holocaust: the Dutch Remember that
In total, between 102,000 and 104,000 Dutch Jews — men, women, children, babies — were murdered in the gas chambers of these camps or died as a result of sickness, starvation, slave labor,etc.. which is an emotional way of saying as an alleged fact that these people were deported and it is assumed they were murdered. They were missing people.
So 104 000 Dutch Jews left in the early 40s and about twenty years later a half a million Soviet Jews were resettled somewhere. (many not Dutch perhaps), which is quite remarkable.
It is clear what happened some died but most were caught up in the Soviet Occupation and returned, or settled elsewhere This is the most likely scenario.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:07 am

Huntinger wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:06 pm
Nessie wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:03 pm
Got any evidence for the resettlement of the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943?
Those who did not die of disease were obviously sent elsewhere after the escape.
That has been suggested as what happened on numerous occasions. The problem is, those Dutch who were selected to go on and work elsewhere, reported leaving with only a few other adults and the majority of the rest were left behind at the camp. There is no evidence from any witness, or document or anything that there were mass transports back out of the camp.
Most likely all were assimilated into the Soviet Union.
The Dutch arrived between March and July 1943. It would be over a year before the Soviets arrived. There is no evidence that tens of thousands of Dutch Jews were liberated by the Soviets from any source at all.
I doubt if there was anywhere else for them to go. At the time of closure of the camp they were still interned and could not return to Holland. It is what happened to them after they got over run by the Russians which is the question you should perhaps be asking yourself.
The camp closed after a revolt in October 1943. It was then razed to the ground. The Russians found newly planted trees and not much else. There is no evidence the majority of Dutch Jews left the camp. Your hypothesis they did and ended up under Soviet control is clearly wrong.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 am

Huntinger wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:14 pm
been-there wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:35 am
I agree, this does appear to be the 'Achilles heel' of revisionism, if we accept the figures given for numbers of missing people.

On the face of it there only appears to be two alternatives:
1. either those people were relocated somewhere,
or
2. they were exterminated somehow.

I wonder though if there are other alternative explanations:
I think BT that the word Resettlement has connotations of people being taken back to their homeland. The point is brought up nicely in the Iron Curtain thread, that there was no resettlement, just integration into the Soviet system. The evidence points to the fact that when the camps were taken over by the USSR soldiers, there was no Liberation. It appears that the Soviet guards simply replaced the German guards and kept the camps going for their own purposes..I often wonder what insecticide they used to quench the Typhus.
That did not happen at the AR camps of Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec and TII, there was nothing left of them, each having been razed to the ground. Birkenau had only a few prisoners left.

I am not aware of any camp being liberated by the Soviets directly from the Nazis. The Nazis preferred to surrender to the Allies as they observed the Geneva convention and treatment was far less harsh.
All of the Eastern Europa was in their control as evidenced by the maps given, including Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and so on. All of the leaders were vassals of Stalin and part of the Soviet empire. The nations said to be part of the Soviet Empire (in the wider sense) were officially independent countries with separate governments that set their own policies, but those policies had to remain within certain limits decided by the Soviet Union and enforced by threat of intervention by the Warsaw Pact (Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968 and Poland 1980). Countries in this situation are often called satellite states. Soviet cultural imperialism implied the Sovietization of culture and education at the expense of local traditions.

Many people absorbed into the Soviet Empire were imprisoned, including Jews, and no doubt millions of Jews died under their rule with blame being attributed to the Germans. Blaming the Nazis as at Katyn was a very convenient way politically for the Soviets to hide their own crimes against humanity. It is on this basis that the holocaust was inspired by the Soviets and a construct. Due to the restrictions behind the Iron Curtain it is possible that the Jews themselves thought the Nazis did the killing, when the reality was that apart from war and disease there was no resettlement anywhere just integration.
The evidence is that those prisoners in Nazi captivity were marched away from the Sovie advance. Few Jews were left behind. It was the Allies who liberated most of the Jews, not the Soviets.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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