The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

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Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:19 pm

Why would the Nazis move people about the camps during a typhus epidemic to shower them in a crematorium?
"move people about the camps" makes no sense and is too vague. Germans weren't shipping Jews out of ghettos into camps just to shower to fight typhus. Their man goal was free labour for the war economy in the industrial section of the camps. Unfortunately, disease and famine are a by-product of war. Fighting typhus was an afterthought, or rather secondary, since the FIRST MAIN GOAL was FREE LABOUR. First they got them into the camps, THEN they had to deal with typhus. Hell there were some cases were Jews arrived in camps sick, or already dead or even already infected. And they had to be deloused and showered. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WEREN'T ORIGINALLY GATHERED TO WORK FOR THE WAR ECONOMY BEFOREHAND. Get over it!

No amount of lying, or vague, un-precise word play is going to change that fact. So I'm not doing this dance with you anymore.

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Nessie
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Nessie » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:04 am

You know fine well Auschwitz was a camp system with multiple different camps, the main ones being Auschwitz I, Birkenau and Monowitz. How would building a shower in a krema in Birkenau assist in fighting typhus in one of the other camps when that means transporting prisoners from one camp to another?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:36 pm

Nessie has the gall to ask how creating showers and shaving Jews' heads is going to help fight typhus? Troll alert. Troll alert.

First of all, one could argue that it makes more sense to build all the showers in one spot and move the prisoners around. That may take less time then building smaller shower units in separate places. Get one team to build them all in one spot. But this is just a maybe. Nobody argues typhus was only restricted to Birkenau as far as I know however given the high concentration of prisoners there IT WAS MOST COMMON THERE. So why not put showers and other health facilities in the place where it occurs the most. DUH! When you cram a lot of prisoners into a camp that hasn't had proper expansion for beds and or cleaning facilities, you are asking for trouble. Doesn't mean the Germans didn't try to fix those problems. It's obvious they did. Combating typhus is not proof of genocide!

I recommend Nessie read this article
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p-4_Weber.html
to see the lengths Christian Wirths went to in order to install more sanitary facilities in Auschwitz all over to help combat disease and the spread of it. His many implemented measures saved lives and earned the respect of not only fellow Nazis but fellow inmates. It's all documented in the book HEALTH CARE IN AUSCHWITZ.

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Nessie
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:12 am

Werd wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:36 pm
Nessie has the gall to ask how creating showers and shaving Jews' heads is going to help fight typhus? Troll alert. Troll alert.

....
That is not what I asked. Please deal with precisely what I did ask about, quote me and then respond.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Huntinger » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:31 am

At the end of World War Two it was widely assumed that the Nazis running the concentration camps had gassed millions of prisoners in them. At the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, which ran from late 1945 until early fall 1946, it was stated in the judgment that millions of people had been gassed and cremated at the Auschwitz camp, which actually comprised a base camp of that name, and numerous satellite camps, the largest of which was at Birkenau, about two miles away. The evidence upon which the International Military Tribunal's judges made their judgment about gassings at Auschwitz consisted of some testimony and a special report prepared by the Soviet Union. The integrity of that Soviet Commission has been put seriously in doubt since their involvement in the Katyn collusion.
The decision of the International Military Tribunal to endorse the claim of gassing at Auschwitz had far-reaching repercussions, because it was stipulated at the time that the judgments arrived at by that tribunal would be binding for all subsequent legal proceedings. Hence, all later trials in Germany on the subject of Auschwitz, whether conducted by the occupying powers or by the Germans themselves, have never contested the gassing since their occurrence was not something that could be disputed. This is also the reason for the holocaust denial laws in some European countries.
The two documents consisted of a letter from the Auschwitz Central Construction Office, which uses the word "Vergasungskeller", and another, also from the Construction Office, which used the term "gasdichte Türme." Both terms were translated as "gas chambers" by the American prosecution, but these are incorrect translations.
It was also mentioned in another thread that gas doors are needed to separate morgue three and its ventilation system from the other morgues. Morgue three is the autopsy room.
It is also likely that such morgues can double up as air raid shelters if necessary along with necessary facilities to sustain life for a time. Living people and cadavars do not exist well together so unburned bodies need to be separated, hence L1.
CODOH have their version https://codoh.com/library/document/904/
Alles hat ein Ende, nur die Wurst hat zwei

Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:26 pm

This is what Nessie originally asked.
How would building a shower in a krema in Birkenau assist in fighting typhus in one of the other camps when that means transporting prisoners from one camp to another?
This is how I answered.
First of all, one could argue that it makes more sense to build all the showers in one spot and move the prisoners around. That may take less time then building smaller shower units in separate places. Get one team to build them all in one spot. But this is just a maybe. Nobody argues typhus was only restricted to Birkenau as far as I know however given the high concentration of prisoners there IT WAS MOST COMMON THERE. So why not put showers and other health facilities in the place where it occurs the most. DUH! When you cram a lot of prisoners into a camp that hasn't had proper expansion for beds and or cleaning facilities, you are asking for trouble. Doesn't mean the Germans didn't try to fix those problems. It's obvious they did. Combating typhus is not proof of genocide!

I recommend Nessie read this article
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p-4_Weber.html
to see the lengths Christian Wirths went to in order to install more sanitary facilities in Auschwitz all over to help combat disease and the spread of it. His many implemented measures saved lives and earned the respect of not only fellow Nazis but fellow inmates. It's all documented in the book HEALTH CARE IN AUSCHWITZ.
Nessie of course ignored it and did not quote it. As I said, troll alert.

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Nessie
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:39 pm

Werd wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:26 pm
This is what Nessie originally asked.
How would building a shower in a krema in Birkenau assist in fighting typhus in one of the other camps when that means transporting prisoners from one camp to another?
This is how I answered.
First of all, one could argue that it makes more sense to build all the showers in one spot and move the prisoners around. That may take less time then building smaller shower units in separate places. Get one team to build them all in one spot. But this is just a maybe. Nobody argues typhus was only restricted to Birkenau as far as I know however given the high concentration of prisoners there IT WAS MOST COMMON THERE. So why not put showers and other health facilities in the place where it occurs the most. DUH! When you cram a lot of prisoners into a camp that hasn't had proper expansion for beds and or cleaning facilities, you are asking for trouble. Doesn't mean the Germans didn't try to fix those problems. It's obvious they did. Combating typhus is not proof of genocide!

I recommend Nessie read this article
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p-4_Weber.html
to see the lengths Christian Wirths went to in order to install more sanitary facilities in Auschwitz all over to help combat disease and the spread of it.
That would make more sense. Each camp has its own facilities to prevent the spread of disease.
His many implemented measures saved lives and earned the respect of not only fellow Nazis but fellow inmates. It's all documented in the book HEALTH CARE IN AUSCHWITZ.
Nessie of course ignored it and did not quote it. As I said, troll alert.
At most Bischoff was planning a shower for Birkenau in 1942. But there is no evidence it was installed and used.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Huntinger » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:20 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:39 pm
At most Bischoff was planning a shower for Birkenau in 1942. But there is no evidence it was installed and used.
Big deal, perhaps the Krauts ran out of money and couldn't finish it. The whole of Birkenau was built on a shoe string budget.
Alles hat ein Ende, nur die Wurst hat zwei

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Satyam
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Satyam » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:16 pm

Werd wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:36 pm
Footnotes not reproduced. Find them here.
http://vho.org/dl/ENG/st.pdf

10. “Special Action” and the Erection of Sanitary Facilities

The term ‘special action,’ in connection with the prisoner of war camp of Auschwitz, is also to be viewed in the context of the construction of sanitary facilities. This is clear from a letter by Bischoff to the SS WVHA dated May 14, 1943, the subject of which is the “Carrying out of the special action– pro-curement of material.” The letter begins:

“On the basis of a joint inspection of the construction depot in Krakow with SS Obersturmführer Grosch, it is requested that the following materials be shipped in accordance with the list presented by the Krakow construction inspectorate to the Central Construction Office on May 12, 1943, for the purpose of carrying out of the special action ordered and for the realization of the major increase in housing facilities.”

A list of the materials involved, which are mainly various types of pipes, follows. The same letter contains an order for 100 tons of iron rods “for the construction of the sewage plant and facility for the extraction of methane gas.” This proves that the ‘special action’ referred to the purification of waste water. At the end of the letter the recipients are listed, among them also “1 Registry (special action POW camp).” 172
There was therefore a registry where all documents having a connection to the ‘special action’ were kept. As we have seen in Chapter 8, the “special action ordered” was the special program for the improvement of the hygienic installations in the Birkenau camp, which Kammler had ordered a few days after his visit to Auschwitz on May 7, 1943.

The water supply of the camp fell within the scope of the “carrying out of the special treatment” as well, which once again shows that ‘special action’ and ‘special treatment’ were one and the same. On December 16, 1942, Bischoff wrote, in his instructions on the subject “Prisoner of war camp Auschwitz/Carrying out of the special treatment”: 173

As experience has taught, where large numbers of people are crowded together, the danger of infectious diseases from the consumption of impure water or as a result of inadequate hygiene due to shortage of water is very great. Therefore, in calculating of the number of wells, the size of the pump aggregates and the pipe bores etc., a water requirement of 150 liters for each member of the troops and 40 liters for each prisoner is to be assumed. This amounts to a daily water requirement of 5,900 m³. Moreover, the installation of a chlorination plant for a quantity of water up to 500 m³ per hour is planned. The facility has 2 air/vacuum pumps with an output of 360 l/m each, for suctioning the siphoning lines, as well as an air compressor with output of 450 l/min and 6 atmospheres of operating pressure for the pressurized air chambers. In order to supply the individual crematoriums and other special facilities, approx. 15,900 running meters of pressure pipes of 50–500 mm diameter with about 73 water valves and 73 under-ground hydrants are to be laid.”

Of course, the term ‘special action’ could, in addition to the general meaning described so far, also denote something more specific, as we shall see in the following.
that argument is wrong. those who got sonderbehandlung were always the ones sick, weak, unable to work.
they would never be called to do sonderaktion

good try🙂

Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:27 pm

Look at how he cuts it off and stops reading and research at the most important part...
Satyam wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:16 pm
the term ‘special action’ could, in addition to the general meaning described so far, also denote something more specific, as we shall see in the following....
that argument is wrong. those who got sonderbehandlung were always the ones sick, weak, unable to work.
they would never be called to do sonderaktion

good try🙂
Come back and try again when you have read more.

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