The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

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Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:41 pm

And the fact that they tried to install 100 showers for health and safety PROVES THAT THE OCTOBER 13 1942 DOCUMENT HAS NO HOMICIDAL INTENT because there was no HOMICIDAL CONTEXT! Again, historical context of what was going on at the time with typhus and mortality matters. But you tried to hand wave those documents. :lol:

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Nessie
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:19 am

Werd wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:41 pm
And the fact that they tried to install 100 showers for health and safety
How do you know they tried to install the showers? All you have is a Mattogno suggestion, that is not evidence.
PROVES THAT THE OCTOBER 13 1942 DOCUMENT HAS NO HOMICIDAL INTENT because there was no HOMICIDAL CONTEXT! Again, historical context of what was going on at the time with typhus and mortality matters. But you tried to hand wave those documents. :lol:
Then why not call it a shower?

Why did Bishoff call it a gassing cellar and why did the Riedel foreman, completing a time sheet in March 1943 for Krema IV, refer to a gas chamber?

The main historical context is for May to July 1944 and the mass arrival of Hungarian Jews. I take it you now accept there were no showers in any krema then? Yes or no?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:03 am

How do you know they tried to install the showers? All you have is a Mattogno suggestion, that is not evidence.
The fact that a document exists saying they wanted to do it in a time of a serious typhus epidemic proves they wanted to get mortality under control and lower it, not increase it was fake homicidal gas chambers. Even when we have documents showing CLEAR INTENT to bring down the mortality rate, you hand wave it. No surprise, troll.
Why did Bishoff call it a gassing cellar
I must have missed where the German word "vergasungskellar" showed up in his October 13 1942 document. I know it showed up in a January 29 one that you tried to use as proof of homicidal gas chambers and that failed once I showed Mattogno's arguments that were better than Butz's.

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Nessie
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:23 am

Werd wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:03 am
How do you know they tried to install the showers? All you have is a Mattogno suggestion, that is not evidence.
The fact that a document exists saying they wanted to do it in a time of a serious typhus epidemic proves they wanted to get mortality under control and lower it, not increase it was fake homicidal gas chambers. Even when we have documents showing CLEAR INTENT to bring down the mortality rate, you hand wave it. No surprise, troll.
It is an invention by Mattogno that kremas were to have showering facilities for the entire Auschwitz camp system. I hand wave that away because I want evidence, not opinion on what was intended :roll:
Why did Bishoff call it a gassing cellar
I must have missed where the German word "vergasungskellar" showed up in his October 13 1942 document. I know it showed up in a January 29 one that you tried to use as proof of homicidal gas chambers and that failed once I showed Mattogno's arguments that were better than Butz's.
The documents you want to avoid are in a new thread.....
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:33 am

Nessie wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:23 am
Werd wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:03 am
How do you know they tried to install the showers? All you have is a Mattogno suggestion, that is not evidence.
The fact that a document exists saying they wanted to do it in a time of a serious typhus epidemic...
I hand wave that away because I want evidence, not opinion on what was intended :roll:
Yes we all know you hand wave primary documents from the archive of the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz. Page 69 in the middle.
Image
Relevant quote:
On May 14, 1943, Bischoff sent the Topf firm the following “urgent telegram”:207

“On Monday bring along draft plan for hot water supply for approx. 100 showers. Installation of heating coils or boiler in the waste incinerator or flue of crematorium III, which is under construction, in order to exploit the high exhaust temperatures. If required, raising of masonry of furnace possible to accommodate a large reserve tank. It is requested that the corresponding drawing be given to Herr Prüfer on Monday, May 17.”
So it seems Nessie is back to arguing in the way I accused him of, but he denied earlier. Let's recap:
Mattogno makes up footnotes in one of the following ways.

1. Real RGVA citations from the Russian archive that has the entire collection of the documents from the Auschwitz Zentralbauleitung, but NOT the contents in the document pages Mattogno says there are.

2. Fake RGVA citations for numbers to pages that don't exist, and thus the content is also fake.

3. Fake or mixed up RGVA page citations that don't match actual words on pages Mattogno found.

Or some combination of both.

Nessie is free to engage in his conspiracy theory any way he wants and pretend Mattogno doesn't know how to do archival research with Jurgen Graf. That's on him
This document has been faked some way by Mattogno, or others before him to fool him and make him look bad when he eventually used it (or any other researcher who would get to it), and the Germans never had a desire to install showers to deal with hygiene in a time of serious typhus problems. Or perhaps the document is real and those were Bischoff's words, but he just wasn't serious. He didn't care about the typhus problem. Or maybe it's worse. Maybe there never was any typhus and it was all a Nazi trick to cover up the gas chambers. I dunno. It's up to Nessie to clarify instead of just saying random shit that kind of sounds good but is too vague to really pinpoint what is being uttered.
Last edited by Werd on Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:39 am

We also saw Nessie dodge every single point Mattogno brought up when I went through it all again on page 5. Him dodging this was my favourite.


Image
Oh. Good question between bottom 67 and top 68 Mattogno. Looks like
you found an internal inconsistency in the holocaust storyline. No surprise. It is true that
alleged victims of the Bunkers were just burned in trenches right outside the coloured houses.

Image
Precisely! The crematorium was designed to cremate typhus victims.

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Nessie
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:49 pm

Werd wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:33 am
Nessie wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:23 am
Werd wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:03 am
How do you know they tried to install the showers? All you have is a Mattogno suggestion, that is not evidence.
The fact that a document exists saying they wanted to do it in a time of a serious typhus epidemic...
I hand wave that away because I want evidence, not opinion on what was intended :roll:
Yes we all know you hand wave primary documents from the archive of the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz. Page 69 in the middle.
Image
Relevant quote:
On May 14, 1943, Bischoff sent the Topf firm the following “urgent telegram”:207

“On Monday bring along draft plan for hot water supply for approx. 100 showers. Installation of heating coils or boiler in the waste incinerator or flue of crematorium III, which is under construction, in order to exploit the high exhaust temperatures. If required, raising of masonry of furnace possible to accommodate a large reserve tank. It is requested that the corresponding drawing be given to Herr Prüfer on Monday, May 17.”
So it seems Nessie is back to arguing in the way I accused him of, but he denied earlier. Let's recap:
Mattogno makes up footnotes in one of the following ways.

1. Real RGVA citations from the Russian archive that has the entire collection of the documents from the Auschwitz Zentralbauleitung, but NOT the contents in the document pages Mattogno says there are.

2. Fake RGVA citations for numbers to pages that don't exist, and thus the content is also fake.

3. Fake or mixed up RGVA page citations that don't match actual words on pages Mattogno found.

Or some combination of both.

Nessie is free to engage in his conspiracy theory any way he wants and pretend Mattogno doesn't know how to do archival research with Jurgen Graf. That's on him
This document has been faked some way by Mattogno, or others before him to fool him and make him look bad when he eventually used it (or any other researcher who would get to it), and the Germans never had a desire to install showers to deal with hygiene in a time of serious typhus problems. Or perhaps the document is real and those were Bischoff's words, but he just wasn't serious. He didn't care about the typhus problem. Or maybe it's worse. Maybe there never was any typhus and it was all a Nazi trick to cover up the gas chambers. I dunno. It's up to Nessie to clarify instead of just saying random shit that kind of sounds good but is too vague to really pinpoint what is being uttered.
I have never said nor alleged the document was faked.

Maybe it was worded that way to disguise the actual purpose of the work at the kremas, which on other occasions did not happen as those involved let slip the real purpose.

There are multiple witnesses to the gas chambers being disguised as showers, so it is hardly odd that shower parts were ordered and there were discussions about showers.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:51 pm

Is there a link to the original for;

"Bring Monday [May 17] rough plan for production of hot water for about 100 showers. Fitting of heating coils or boiler in the waste incinerator at present under construction crem. III or system using the high temperatures of the flue gases. It would be possible to raise the brickwork of the furnace to take a large tank. Herr Prüfer is requested to bring the relevant drawings on Monday 15/5. Sig. Bischoff"
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:02 pm

I have never said nor alleged the document was faked.
Then it's real so shut the F up.
Maybe it was worded that way to disguise the actual purpose of the work at the kremas, which on other occasions did not happen as those involved let slip the real purpose.
Nessie is going with option #2 or #3.
...perhaps the document is real and those were Bischoff's words, but he just wasn't serious. He didn't care about the typhus problem. Or maybe it's worse. Maybe there never was any typhus and it was all a Nazi trick to cover up the gas chambers.
Nessie can hand wave or cast doubts and maybes upon primary documents and Mattogno's ability to locate and quote them accurately all he wants. He is free to pretend it doesn't mean what it says for reasons he can't fully elucidate and then support with evidence. I will leave trolling to the trolls. I will deal with documents and what is written inside of them.
Last edited by Werd on Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Bischoff letter from October 13 1942

Post by Werd » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:08 pm

Nessie wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:51 pm
Is there a link to the original for;

"Bring Monday [May 17] rough plan for production of hot water for about 100 showers. Fitting of heating coils or boiler in the waste incinerator at present under construction crem. III or system using the high temperatures of the flue gases. It would be possible to raise the brickwork of the furnace to take a large tank. Herr Prüfer is requested to bring the relevant drawings on Monday 15/5. Sig. Bischoff"
Footnote 207, blind man. The archival reference is on the bottom of the page 69.

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