WW2 is a complex subject

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Huntinger
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Huntinger » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:32 am

Nessie wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:41 am
The evidence is that they were gassed on arrival at Birkenau.
Present this evidence to us please beyond eye witness statements and claims.
You should stop making claims you cannot evidence. Learn that when one alternative is evidenced and the other is not, the evidenced alternative is the one that happened.
It would appear that semantics will not work here. You either have evidence of murder or you do not. You suspect murder, but apart from dubious testimony there is nothing else.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:11 pm

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:32 am
Nessie wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:41 am
The evidence is that they were gassed on arrival at Birkenau.
Present this evidence to us please beyond eye witness statements and claims.
You should stop making claims you cannot evidence. Learn that when one alternative is evidenced and the other is not, the evidenced alternative is the one that happened.
It would appear that semantics will not work here. You either have evidence of murder or you do not. You suspect murder, but apart from dubious testimony there is nothing else.
List of evidence here;

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

This is just the documentary evidence;

"Contemporary German documents

Letter of 14 July 1941 from the Topf engineer Paul Erdmann to the construction office Mauthausen on a cremation rate of 33 to 40 min per corpse “without overloading” the two-muffle oven [Mattogno, IFCDA, p. 406]
Report of 30 October 1941 from the construction office Auschwitz on "60 men can be cremated" in the Topf five three muffle ovens within one hour [Mattogno, IFCDA, p. 353]
List of constructions of 31 March 1942 on “5 horse stable barracks | special treatment” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 36]
Letter from central construction office Auschwitz to SS-WVHA of 9 June 1942 on “erection of 4 horse stable barracks for special treatment of the Jews" [Mattogno, STIA, p. 36]
List of barracks of 30 June 1942 on “effect barracks for special treatment 3 pieces” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 36]
Letter of construction office Auschwitz to construction office Stuthof on "an incineration takes about ½ hour according to the Topf company” in the three-muffle oven [Mattogno, IFCDA, p. 424]
Estimate of costs of 15 July 1942 on “4 barracks for special treatment of prisoners in Birkenau” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 27]
Explanatory report of 15 July 1942 on “5 barracks for special treatment of detainees” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 37]
List of barracks of 17 July 1942 on “Purpose: special treatment Type: 260/9 Needed: 5 Erected: 3 Still to erect: 2” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 37]
Memo of Fritz Ertl of 21 August 1942 on „bathing installations for special actions" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 440]
Radio signal of 26 August 1942 on “material [Zyklon-B] for special treatment” [Death Books From Auschwitz: Remnants, Vol. I, p. 144]
Letter from Kurt Prüfer of 8 September 1942 on "the number of muffles [37 with a capacity of 1850 corpses per day] is not yet sufficient; we should deliver more ovens as quick as possible" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 442]
Travel permit of Arthur Liebehenschel of 14 September 1942 on “5 trucks…for special actions” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 135]
Report from Fritz Sanders of 14 September 1942 on "stuffing the individual muffles with several corpses" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 443]
Radio signal of 15 September 1942 on “experimental station for field ovens Aktion Reinhard” [Johannes Tuchel, Inspektion der Konzentrationslager 1938-1945, p. 176]
Report of 17 September 1942 on “inspection of special facility” in Chelmno and order for “a ball mill for substances” [Shmuel Krakowski, Das Todeslager Chełmno/Kulmhof: Der Beginn der"Endlösung", p. 120, English translation)
Speech of Oswald Pohl of 23 September 1942 on “special tasks, about which we do not have to speak words” [The Van Pelt report, VI Blueprints of the Genocide]
Order of 5 October 1942 on “doors for special t[reatment] of the Jews” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 48]
Letter from Karl Bischoff to SS-WVHA of 13 October 1942 on “due to the situation created by the special actions, the construction of the crematorium had to be begun immediately just this past July” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 62]
Patent draft from Fritz Sanders of 26 October 1942 on “continuously operating corpse cremation oven for mass use” [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 450]
List of construction projects of 28 October 1942 on "POW camp Auschwitz (carrying out the special treatment)" [Florian Freund et al., Der Bau des Vernichtungslagers Auschwitz-Birkenau]
Report from Karl Bischoff of 4 November 1942 on “special cellar” in crematorium 2 [Mattogno, ATCFS, volume 1, p. 81]
List of 15 November 1942 on “5 barracks for special treatment” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 37]
Memo from Fritz Wolter of 27 November 1942 on “special cellars” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 180]
Assignement of barracks of 8 December 1942 on “Purpose: special treatment (old) Type: 260/9 Needed: 5 Erected: 5” in Birkenau [Mattogno, STIA, p. 37]
Report from the duty officer of 9 December 1942 on “6 prisoners escaped from special detail I” [Czech, Kalendarium, p. 355]
Report (1,2) from Heinrich Kinna of 16 December 1942 on “imbeciles, idiots, cripples and sick people have to be removed from the camp within a short time by liquidiation to unburden the camp…Poles have to die of a natural death contrary to the measures applied on the Jews” [Jaczynska, Sonderlaboratorium SS, p. 423, citing IPN GK 69/169]
Explanationary report from Karl Bischoff of 16 December 1942 on “the individual crematoriums and other special facilities” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 61]
Order of Rudolf Höss of 5 January 1943 on “the solution of the Jewish question in Auschwitz” [Czech, Kalendarium, p. 845]
Letter from Karl Bischoff of 13 January 1943 on “doors for crematorium I in the POW camp, ordered with letter dated Oct. 26, 1942 are urgently required for the carrying out of the special measures” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 91]
Letter from Eduard Wirths of 21 January 1943 on “undressing room” in crematorium 2 [Mattogno ATCOS, vol. 1, p. 72]
Letter from Karl Bischof to Hans Kammler of 27 January 1943 on “carrying out of the special action” in Birkenau [Mattogno, STIA, p. 131]
Memo from Heinrich Swoboda of 29 January 1943 on “cremation with simultaneous special treatment” in crematorium 2
Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]
Report of Oswald Pohl of 6 February 1943 on ""realization of textile-salvage from the Jewish resettlement" [NO-5742, english]
Memo of Karl Bischoff of 10 February 1943 on "at special unit 1, three horse stable baracks" and "at special unit 2, three horse stable baracks" available "for the storage of personal effects" [Mattogno, STIA, p. 73]
Letter from Karl Bischoff to Rudolf Höß of 12 February 1943 on the “sixth crematorium…an open incineration chamber with the dimension 48.75 x 3.76 m” [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 450]
Memo from Fritz Sander of 17 February 1943 on “the gas cellar” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 456, back-up 1st and 2nd page]
Order of 13 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
Order of 15 February 1943 on “210 anchors for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 448]
Note from Josef Janisch of 15 February 1943 on “for undressing, a horse stable barrack has been erected infront of the cellar entrance” of crematorium 2 [Mattogno, ATCFS, vol. 1, p. 74]
Order of 19 February 1943 on “4 tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 452]
Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 20 February 1943 on “the men were specially accommodated because of infirmity, the women because most of them were children” [Sterbebücher von Auschwitz, document 56, back-up]
List of materials of 24 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
Delivery note of 24 February 1943 on “fittings of 12 gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 443]
Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]
Work time sheet of 2 March 1943 on “concrete in gas chamber” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 446]
Letter from Topf to central construction office Auschwitz of 2 March 1943 on “display devices for hydrogen cyanide residues” for crematorium 2 [Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz, p. 92]
Order of 5 March 1943 of “handle for gas door” for crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]
Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943 on “918 women and children sent to special treatment“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 109]
Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 8 March 1943 on “151 men and 492 women and children were specially treated“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 110]
Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]
Working time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 14 March 1943 on “undressing cellar 2” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 434]
Plan of Birkenau camp of 20 March 1943 indicating a barrack at crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 226, also p. 462]
Memo of 25 March 1943 on “hot air supply device for corpse cellar 1” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 230]
Order from the central construction office of 29 March 1943 on 4 “iron grilles” for windows 30 x 40 cm of crematoria 4 and 5 (i.e. the gas tight windows) [Mattogno, ATCFS, p. 169]
Duty testimonial for [Hans?] Kühnemann of 30 March 1943 on "the action 'resettlement of the Jews', where he supervised, collected and drove away the effects that accumulated at special detail 1 [So. Kdo. I] and crematorium 2" [Perz and Sandkühler, Auschwitz und die "Aktion Reinhard" 1942 - 45, p. 296]
Order from Karl Bischoff of 31 March 1943 on “3 gas tight doors” of crematorium 4 and 5 and “gas door 100/192 for corpse cellar 1…with double 8 mm glass and peephole” of crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 436]
Transfer document of 31 March 1943 on “gas door” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 437]
Transfer inventory of 31 March 1943 on “4 wire mesh slide in devices” and “wooden covers” in the crematorium 2 basement [Pressac, Technique, p. 430]
Order of 6 April 1943 on “24 anchor bolts for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
Work time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 13 April 1943 on “undressing cellar” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]
Material list of 13 April 1943 on “extension of the aeration and deaeration device (warm air supply) of the crematorium II” [Rudolf Report, 2nd edition]
Order of 16 April 1943 on “iron for fittings for 5 gas doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 438]
Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]
Work time sheet of 16 April 1943 on “fit gas door” in crematorium 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
Letter from Karl Bischoff to Rudolf Höß of 17 April 1943 on "the horse stable barracks erected at special unit II and at crematorium III are urgently needed for troop accommodation...After the operation of special unit II has stopped and the corresponding quarters by Crematorium III are available as well, information is requested as to when the barracks can be dismantled" [Mattogno, STIA, p. 74]
Order from Rudolf Höß of 20 April 1943 on “2 Jews escaped from the Sonderkommando” [Standort- und Kommandanturbefehle, p. 251]
Order from the central construction office of 27 April 1943 on “12 pieces of window grids 50 x 70 cm” (i.e. for the gas tight windows) [Pressac, Technique, p. 441]
Report from Albert Franke-Gricksch of May 1943 on the extermination of Jews unfit for work in Auschwitz [Pressac, Technique, p. 239]
Memo of Karl Bischoff of 19 May 1943 on "two horse stable barracks from 'special action 1'" [Mattogno, STIA, p. 74]
Map of 2 June 1943 with a “prohibited area” near the Bunker 1 and 2 extermination sites [Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz, doc. 21, see also The prohibited area Birkenau]
Order from Glücks via Liebehenschel of 15 June 1943 on “special buildings” should be “located offside in accordance with their purpose and cannot be stared at by all sorts of people” [NO-1242]
Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]
Report from Karl Bischoff to Hans Kammler of 28 June 1943 on “capacity of existing crematoria…in 24 h…4756 persons” [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 460]
Order of Hans Aumeier of 6 August 1943 on "the performed work on the occasion of the special action" [Standort- und Kommandanturbefehle, p. 320]
List of female prisoners of 21 August 1943 (signed by Maria Mandel), who were “specially lodged” (abbreviated G.U. in German) [Sterbebücher von Auschwitz, document 32]
Letter from the central construction office to the camp administration of 24 December 1943 on "stores of the special actions" [Mattogno, STIA, p. 74]
Letter for Hans Kori to concentration camp Majdanek that the cremation time of his ovens can be halved to 30 min per corpse by employing multiple cremations [Mattogno, IFCDA, p. 422]
Proposal list of 9 February 1944 on "after finishing his daily tours, Sch[ramme] was used for the tours due to 'special tasks', Dylewski was "significantly involved in carrying out the 'special tasks' in the camp, and was there to be on duty at day and night"
Duty notes from August Bielisch of 20 May [Leide, NS-Verbrecher und Staatssicherheit, p. 262], Gottfried Weisse of 24 May and Gerhard Appel of 25 May 1944 [Faschismus - Getto - Massenmord, p. 373]: "I will maintain unconditional secrecy during the measures to carry out the Jewish evacuation, and also vis-à-vis my comrades"
Telegram from Hans Kammler to the central construction office of 25 May 1944 on “for special action Hungary/program 3 horse stable barracks are immediately to be erected at the swerve bunkers” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 138]
Memo from Werner Jothann of 17 June 1944 on “camouflage of the crematoria and security measures by erection of a second fence“ [Auschwitz 1940-1945, Volume 3 p. 183]
Labour force report of 28 July 1944 on "807 stokers" and "30 wood unloader" at the crematoria in Auschwitz-Birkenau [similar reports exist also for later dates, see here]
Escape report of 7 September (actually October) 1944 on “special detail (crematorium)” [originally from the website of the Auschwitz State Museum]
Strength reports of the female camp in Birkenau of October 1944 on "special treatment [abbreviated SB]" as loss of prisoners
3 October 1944 [Hefte von Auschwitz 8, p. 115]
4 October 1944 [Deaths books of Auschwitz; image originally from the Auschwitz Museum website]
6 October 1944 [Baum, Widerstand in Auschwitz, p. 28]
8 October 1944 [Kogon, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, p. 223]
15 October 1944 [Baum Widerstand in Auschwitz, p. 29]
Letter to Dachau camp administration of 25 October 1944 on "deportation of unfit Jews to Auschwitz" and "transport of invalids to Auschwitz" [back up here]
Letter to Dachau camp administration of 31 October 1944 on "transfer of 1020 sick and unfit prisoners to Auschwitz" [back up here]"
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:42 pm

That is not evidence, circumstantial perhaps to a minor extent. We want actual hard evidence linking a to b.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
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Nessie
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:53 pm

NSDAP wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:42 pm
That is not evidence, circumstantial perhaps to a minor extent. We want actual hard evidence linking a to b.
That is documentary evidence of a special action at Birkenau kremas that involved work such as undressing rooms, gas proof doors, hydrogen cyanide residue display devices, showers, wire mesh devices and bars for windows.

That corroborates the witness testimony of people taken inside the kremas to be gassed in chambers made to look like showers. The witnesses are not lying about that.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:00 pm

There is so many contradictions with the witnesses that they are discredited. You have been told this a thousand times. Everything else is just normal gear. You want to believe your hoax so go ahead. As far as we are concerned it is just a hoax. Without your witnesses there is nothing. You know this which is why you continue with fake correlations.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:23 am

NSDAP wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:00 pm
There is so many contradictions with the witnesses that they are discredited.
You have not even looked at all the witness evidence, let alone show contradictions that prove lying.
You have been told this a thousand times. Everything else is just normal gear. You want to believe your hoax so go ahead. As far as we are concerned it is just a hoax. Without your witnesses there is nothing. You know this which is why you continue with fake correlations.
What was the "special action" that had certain people being sent to the kremas for, that needed undressing rooms, gas proof doors, hydrogen cyanide residue display devices, showers, wire mesh devices and bars for windows?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Huntinger » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:37 am

10 Gasprüfer were ordered for the chimneys of the ovens. This is 10 gas testers with no relation to cyanide. These testers are similar to the oxygen and carbondioxide (gas analyzers) that are used in modern vehicles. Crematoria need emission testers to make sure they work within certain parameters. This term is used for smoke gas analyzers, as they are installed in smoke flues and chimneys of various firing installations (crematories, heaters, etc.). Both the number of testers ordered (10 devices for 10 smoke flues in the Crematories II & III of Auschwitz-Birkenau) as well as the company which was asked to supply them (Topf & Söhne constructed crematory ovens) support this thesis. It seems in 1993 Gasrestnachweisgeräten für Zyklon was mentioned. Most likely this is fraudulent.
http://vho.org/tr/2004/2/Mattogno140-154.html

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:09 am

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:37 am
10 Gasprüfer were ordered for the chimneys of the ovens. This is 10 gas testers with no relation to cyanide. These testers are similar to the oxygen and carbondioxide (gas analyzers) that are used in modern vehicles. Crematoria need emission testers to make sure they work within certain parameters. This term is used for smoke gas analyzers, as they are installed in smoke flues and chimneys of various firing installations (crematories, heaters, etc.). Both the number of testers ordered (10 devices for 10 smoke flues in the Crematories II & III of Auschwitz-Birkenau) as well as the company which was asked to supply them (Topf & Söhne constructed crematory ovens) support this thesis. It seems in 1993 Gasrestnachweisgeräten für Zyklon was mentioned. Most likely this is fraudulent.
http://vho.org/tr/2004/2/Mattogno140-154.html
There is no evidence produced the document was forged. All Mattogno does is use arguments from incredulity and ignorance, such as why does no witness mention the devices? That is not a substitute for the evidence needed to show what did happen inside the kremas, if deniers think it was something other than the mortuaries were converted to gas chambers.

What was the special treatment/actions referred to here mean?

Speech of Oswald Pohl of 23 September 1942 on “special tasks, about which we do not have to speak words” [The Van Pelt report, VI Blueprints of the Genocide]

Order of 5 October 1942 on “doors for special t[reatment] of the Jews” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 48]

Letter from Karl Bischoff to SS-WVHA of 13 October 1942 on “due to the situation created by the special actions, the construction of the crematorium had to be begun immediately just this past July” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 62]

List of construction projects of 28 October 1942 on "POW camp Auschwitz (carrying out the special treatment)" [Florian Freund et al., Der Bau des Vernichtungslagers Auschwitz-Birkenau]

Report from Karl Bischoff of 4 November 1942 on “special cellar” in crematorium 2 [Mattogno, ATCFS, volume 1, p. 81]
List of 15 November 1942 on “5 barracks for special treatment” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 37]

Memo from Fritz Wolter of 27 November 1942 on “special cellars” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 180]

Letter from Karl Bischoff of 13 January 1943 on “doors for crematorium I in the POW camp, ordered with letter dated Oct. 26, 1942 are urgently required for the carrying out of the special measures” [Mattogno, STIA, p. 91]

Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943 on “918 women and children sent to special treatment“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 109]

Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 8 March 1943 on “151 men and 492 women and children were specially treated“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 110]

Assignement of barracks of 8 December 1942 on “Purpose: special treatment (old) Type: 260/9 Needed: 5 Erected: 5” in Birkenau [Mattogno, STIA, p. 37]

Why did such special actions need undressing rooms, gas tight doors, a gassing cellar, bars on windows etc?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Huntinger » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:13 am

Nessie wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:09 am
bars on windows etc?
With due respect, what windows; I understood all of the cellars were beneath ground. You have asked questions; but none of which suggest homicidal gassing. From my readings there are other rational explanations. There are others here who may answer your questions, but from what I have read, these have already been answered and now being repeated.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:16 am

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:13 am
Nessie wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:09 am
bars on windows etc?
With due respect, what windows; I understood all of the cellars were beneath ground.
No, kremas IV and V were above ground.
You have asked questions; but none of which suggest homicidal gassing. From my readings there are other rational explanations. There are others here who may answer your questions, but from what I have read, these have already been answered and now being repeated.
In what way does special treatment for Jews in kremas with undressing rooms, gassing cellars, gas proof doors, gas detection devices, bars on windows, mesh insertion devices and parts for showers NOT back up witness evidence that the people not selected to work were taken to the kremas, told to undress for showers and were then gassed?

All the evidence, from the documents to the witnesses shows there were gas chambers. The alternatives are speculative claims not backed by any evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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