WW2 is a complex subject

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NSDAP
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:11 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm


1) That a large percentage of the HCN contained in the pellets needs to have outgassed for people to start dying (300ppm concentration, as per literature), rather than about 15% (although calculations show this is all that is needed to permeate the chamber from four different spots where the Zyklon has been introduced).

2) That the gas chambers were not heated (again, destroyed by documents such as):

3) That anyone is saying in a room full of panicking, hyperventilating people clawing at and crushing each other, the sole cause of death is a lethal dose of HCN inhalation.
The average temperature in Poland is not high, the HCN would not have readily evaporated. People would die but not in the time period of 10 mins if exposed to this lethal chemical. Never heard so much nonsense as this.
There were no gas chambers to be heated and if there were a proper ventilation system would have been used as was done with the fumigation chambers.
Apart from a few lying eyewitnesses where is the evidence of panicking hyperventilating people. You have watched too many Shoah videos.
Please translate that document accurately in context for the others to read.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:12 pm

Been-there is full on brainwashed denial mode, pretending there is no evidence to show a planned and executed Holocaust that was secretive and involved gassing, shooting, extortion, theft, slave labour and hostages.

When deniers pretend there is no evidence, they are ignoring what there really is no evidence for, the mass survival of those not selected to work.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by been-there » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm
Ok where are all the millions of teeth and bone fragments at Birkenau IF nearly a million people WERE gassed there and their cremains put in pools as claimed? That would be approximately 32 million teeth and many tons of ashes with bone fragments in these pools. So where is the empirical evidence of that?
This is based on the erroneous belief that human teeth routinely survive cremation unscathed and cannot be ground down to a powdery substance afterward with tools as simple as rocks.
Allright. Who ground down the 32 million teeth? When did they do that? How many were involved in doing that? Where did they do it? Where are the witnesses to that grinding and are they credible? And where is the teeth powder. It would be many tons and could be empirically verified. This would end all debate. So where is it all? Why hasn't research been done to locate at least some of it in the claimed "pools of ashes" to put the matter to rest?

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm
You are also (falsely) assuming that the Nazis would pack all the ash into one convenient spot for someone to find later, rather than scattering it in the surroundings, as per testimony, for wind and weather to disperse over the years.
I am not assuming anything. I am merely applying critical thinking to the narrative's claims. Birkenau erected the stone slabs claiming the remains of over a million people lie in specific pools. That is not my assumption. That is the official explanation.

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm
The evaporation rate of Hydrogen Cyanide from Zyklon B was deliberately designed to be extremely slow at low temperatures for safety reasons. So how could it be lethal for all of 1000 or more people in a large and cold krema in the times claimed by the alleged 'eye witnesses'? Within the claimed ten to twenty minutes less than 20% of the HCN would have been released and so would have only affected those closest. The vast majority of people would have still been conscious and unaffected when the doors were opened. The certainly wouldn't all be dead as claimed. This is the empirical reality of the chemistry involved.
Again you are assuming
1) That a large percentage of the HCN contained in the pellets needs to have outgassed for people to start dying (300ppm concentration, as per literature), rather than about 15% (although calculations show this is all that is needed to permeate the chamber from four different spots where the Zyklon has been introduced).
Ok. So in winter where outside temperatures in Auschwitz can regularly drop to -7°C and lower, how much concentration of HCN would have been reached after ten minutes and after twenty minutes in the perimeter and corners of a cold morgue that, say (being generous) had reached a temperature of 15°C from the combined body heat of the alleged victims? Remember according to the research less than 20% of the HCN would have been released.

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm
2) That the gas chambers were not heated (again, destroyed by documents such as):

Image
I am not familiar with that. Does that only apply to krema 2 and 3, and from March '43 onwards? Doesn't it defy the witness 'survivor' testimony? What occurred before this date? How could over a thousand people have been killed in a cold morgue without warm air circulation in under 30 minutes before March '43? Why wasn't the pre-existing, manufacturer recommended Kreislauf system used? Why heat a whole morgue designed to be cold? Why not just heat the pellets and circulate the lethal gas with the already designed and more practical equipment? Etc., etc., etc.
I.e. I see problems with it.

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm
3) That anyone is saying in a room full of panicking, hyperventilating people clawing at and crushing each other, the sole cause of death is a lethal dose of HCN inhalation.
The narrative claims contradictorily that they both i.) thought they were being deloused/disinfected in showers AND that they b.) knew their fate was to be gassed. So in either scenario why would they "claw and crush each other"?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:35 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:12 pm
Been-there is full on brainwashed denial mode, pretending there is no evidence to show a planned and executed Holocaust that was secretive and involved gassing, shooting, extortion, theft, slave labour and hostages.

When deniers pretend there is no evidence, they are ignoring what there really is no evidence for, the mass survival of those not selected to work.
There was no holocaust as depicted. There were a few isolated incidences of criminal activity by some unscrupulous SS men, who would have been shot if their conduct was known about: this in conjunction with atrocious conditions brought about by war and disease and stories promulgated by Joseph Stalin in collusion with International Zionists, the British and US and others resulted in the mythology and its continued maintenance. The true author of the holocaust is not the Jews but comrade Stalin.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
𝕹𝕾𝕯𝕬𝕻

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:20 pm

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
I am merely applying critical thinking to the narrative's claims. Birkenau erected the stone slabs claiming the remains of over a million people lie in specific pools. That is not my assumption. That is the official explanation.
It isn't. Nowhere can I find the word "over a million people", or any suggestion by the museum akin to "all of it" on the slabs near the ponds.

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
Ok. So in winter where outside temperatures in Auschwitz can regularly drop to -7°C and lower, how much concentration of HCN would have been reached after ten minutes and after twenty minutes in the perimeter and corners of a cold morgue that, say (being generous) had reached a temperature of 15°C from the combined body heat of the alleged victims? Remember according to the research less than 20% of the HCN would have been released.
You do realize that the mental image of a cellar doesn't automatically mean its temperature is similar to outside, right? Being surrounded by earth in fact acts as insulation. Then you pack over 1500 people into it, including the time it takes for everyone to assemble inside, we have the aforementioned document about pre-heating the morgue rooms (now why the f* would you want to do that if it really were just a morgue to store corpses) with warm air, you've got the proximity of the CREMATORIUM above or next to you (depending on which Krema we are talking about). And here's the calculation for how the gas will spread:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... yanide.001

(read from above halfway down to get to the issue faster)

Also, the DEGESCH system was designed for small rooms, like building BW5b and not the much larger morgue 1 of e.g. Krema II, where you'd need plenty of these for them to even get the air circulating. And as has been pointed out by another person above, the purpose of those machines was to work the Zyklon into the clothing, and not to hasten the process. Lice are hard to kill compared to people.

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
What occurred before this date? How could over a thousand people have been killed in a cold morgue without warm air circulation in under 30 minutes before March '43? Why wasn't the pre-existing, manufacturer recommended Kreislauf system used? Why heat a whole morgue designed to be cold? Why not just heat the pellets and circulate the lethal gas with the already designed and more practical equipment? Etc., etc., etc. I.e. I see problems with it.
Kremas II, III, IV and V all came online spring 1943 onward. Before that, gassings only happened at the Red house, White house and Krema I, all of which were comparatively smaller, and therefore not "large, cold rooms" that needed a while to be warmed up. Back then, gassings occurred also less frequently than in 1943 and especially 44, therefore you might want to help your case by providing concrete claims of a gassing that happened during the WINTER of 41 and 42.

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
The narrative claims ... that they both i.) thought they were being deloused/disinfected in showers AND that they b.) knew their fate was to be gassed. So in either scenario why would they "claw and crush each other"?
In the first scenario, the ruse would collapse the moment the door was slammed shut behind them, while screams started to come from those closest to the columns while no water came from the overhead showerheads.

For the second scenario, you need to provide evidence that "the narrators" have made such claims. So far I have only heard reports of a few individuals realizing they were going to die, maybe trying to warn others, and getting ignored or roughed up by the Kapos.
Why is debunking decade-long research by revisionist scholars such an entertaining task for an absolute amateur? Honestly, I have no idea: http://siraaronrichards.imgur.com

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:28 pm

NSDAP wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:11 pm
Please translate that document accurately in context for the others to read.
"In accordance with your proposal, the department agrees that cellar 1 will be preheated with the air coming from the rooms with the 3 installations to generate the forced-draught. The supply and installation of the necessary ductwork and ventilators must follow as soon as possible. As you indicate in your letter, the work should begin this week."
Why is debunking decade-long research by revisionist scholars such an entertaining task for an absolute amateur? Honestly, I have no idea: http://siraaronrichards.imgur.com

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by NSDAP » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:43 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:20 pm
So far I have only heard reports of a few individuals realizing they were going to die, maybe trying to warn others, and getting ignored or roughed up by the Kapos.
Well you certainly do not read or listen to many testimonies from the alleged eyewitnesses. They all said they thought they were going to be gassed (but miraculously were not): this was a common rumour going around the ghettos and everywhere. When they went to shower rooms for hygiene purposes many were surprised that water came out from the shower heads.
That letter is out of context and deliberately so. But thank you for that.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by been-there » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:14 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:20 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
I am merely applying critical thinking to the narrative's claims. Birkenau erected the stone slabs claiming the remains of over a million people lie in specific pools. That is not my assumption. That is the official explanation.
It isn't. Nowhere can I find the word "over a million people", or any suggestion by the museum akin to "all of it" on the slabs near the ponds.
By the same token nether do the slabs mention any other cremains being located anywhere else.

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:20 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
Ok. So in winter where outside temperatures in Auschwitz can regularly drop to -7°C and lower, how much concentration of HCN would have been reached after ten minutes and after twenty minutes in the perimeter and corners of a cold morgue that, say (being generous) had reached a temperature of 15°C from the combined body heat of the alleged victims? Remember according to the research less than 20% of the HCN would have been released.
You do realize that the mental image of a cellar doesn't automatically mean its temperature is similar to outside, right? Being surrounded by earth in fact acts as insulation. Then you pack over 1500 people into it, including the time it takes for everyone to assemble inside, we have the aforementioned document about pre-heating the morgue rooms (now why the f* would you want to do that if it really were just a morgue to store corpses) with warm air, you've got the proximity of the CREMATORIUM above or next to you (depending on which Krema we are talking about). And here's the calculation for how the gas will spread:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... yanide.001

(read from above halfway down to get to the issue faster)

Also, the DEGESCH system was designed for small rooms, like building BW5b and not the much larger morgue 1 of e.g. Krema II, where you'd need plenty of these for them to even get the air circulating. And as has been pointed out by another person above, the purpose of those machines was to work the Zyklon into the clothing, and not to hasten the process. Lice are hard to kill compared to people.
I don't see how the size of room alters the principle. It would still be more effective to circulate controlled warm air of the most suitable temperature (26°C wasn't it?) over the pellets. This would ensure speediest evaporation time, circulation of HCN to all parts of the room from the location of the pellets, and speedier death. It would also ensure a shorter time before the pellets had emitted all HCN. That would be more practical and safer for removal of the alleged victims' corpses. As it is now, the eye witness testimony does not concur with chemical science. Heating the whole morgue before victims enter would take time and not be cost effective. It makes no sense.
And allthough I accept your points about the differences between killing lice in clothes with killing humans, what we are dealing with here are the 'eye witness' testimonies. They defy basic physics. There is no getting around that.

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:20 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
What occurred before this date? How could over a thousand people have been killed in a cold morgue without warm air circulation in under 30 minutes before March '43? Why wasn't the pre-existing, manufacturer recommended Kreislauf system used? Why heat a whole morgue designed to be cold? Why not just heat the pellets and circulate the lethal gas with the already designed and more practical equipment? Etc., etc., etc. I.e. I see problems with it.
Kremas II, III, IV and V all came online spring 1943 onward. Before that, gassings only happened at the Red house, White house and Krema I, all of which were comparatively smaller, and therefore not "large, cold rooms" that needed a while to be warmed up. Back then, gassings occurred also less frequently than in 1943 and especially 44, therefore you might want to help your case by providing concrete claims of a gassing that happened during the WINTER of 41 and 42.
The Zyklon B still needs to be heated above 26°c for speediest and shortest HCN evaporation times.

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:20 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:33 pm
The narrative claims ... that they both i.) thought they were being deloused/disinfected in showers AND that they b.) knew their fate was to be gassed. So in either scenario why would they "claw and crush each other"?
In the first scenario, the ruse would collapse the moment the door was slammed shut behind them, while screams started to come from those closest to the columns while no water came from the overhead showerheads.

For the second scenario, you need to provide evidence that "the narrators" have made such claims. So far I have only heard reports of a few individuals realizing they were going to die, maybe trying to warn others, and getting ignored or roughed up by the Kapos.
As nsdap has written, you need to read more 'eye witness' testimonies.
Anyway, I think being led into a packed morgue with no windows, no shower heads and no lights (?) and one to two thousand other people, should raise suspicions about the 'shower' narrative. Again it makes no sense. People would know something was up before the krema was full and before the door was closed. If you are going to claw and crush others in an attempt to save yourself from a sense of panic and imminent doom, I expect you would do that BEFORE the doors closed and before pellets dropped down into the darkness. Even accepting there was a crush caused by panic that killed some people, that doesn't cause the deaths of all the people who would be unaffected by the less than 20% HCN emission from pellets lying on the ground at the base of the alleged chicken-wire columns.

I still don't think it makes sense. But I appreciate your civil and informed replies. Respect!
Last edited by been-there on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:23 am

Jewish witnesses who describe being showered get ridiculed by deniers. Then those who went into rooms that looked like showers (remember the order of shower heads for krema III) get ridiculed.

They were being force at gun point, pain of death and encouraged by Sonderkommandos to go into the various rooms.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by blake121666 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:23 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm
2) That the gas chambers were not heated (again, destroyed by documents such as):

Image
Rudolf mentions the pre-heated morgues in section 5.4.1.2.5 of his The Chemistry of Auschwitz on pages 126-127. He claims it isn't unusual for a morgue to be equipped with some heating. But the Birkenau morgues never had this heating installed anyway - according to Pressac.

So heating was considered for the K2/K3 morgues but cancelled - 2-3 days after the letter you've posted because the forced drought units were uninstalled from the kremas after being damaged (and they were to be used for the pre-heating of the L1s) .

For more info about Aaron Richards' letter read bullet point 4 on page 432 of Pressac:

https://www.historiography-project.com/ ... tz/432.php

HC's Hans discussed this pre-heating situation 7 years ago at CODOH:

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=6443

He brings up the other things mentioned in the letters at this particular time - such as the airtight doors (which opened outward, btw).

EDIT: OT, but can anyone tell me why Pressac's books are out of print? He has more about this subject than just the TaOotGC book. What is it in his books that has the Jewish community essentially banning them?

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