WW2 is a complex subject

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been-there
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by been-there » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:00 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:47 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:39 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:26 pm
Excerpt from Hitler's Will:
But nor have I left any doubt that if the nations of Europe are once more to be treated only as collections of stocks and shares of these international conspirators in money and finance, then those who carry the real guilt for the murderous struggle, this people will also be held responsible: the Jews! I have further left no one in doubt that this time it will not be only millions of children of Europeans of the Aryan peoples who will starve to death, not only millions of grown men who will suffer death, and not only hundreds of thousands of women and children who will be burned and bombed to death in the cities, without those who are really responsible also having to atone for their crime, even if by more humane means....
Ok. But HOW were they made to atone? And where? And IF he meant mass-murder, what happened to their remains at those locations where the deed was done?

Its no good basing a history on interpretations of written or spoken statements that not only can not be verified but are actually refuted by empirical evidence.
What "empirical evidence" refutes what claims? You're speaking too broadly as a "believer" in your denial. No empirical evidence has refuted the mass slaughter claims. Misunderstandings about the claims have been refuted - not the general claims themselves.
Believer in my denial?? :roll:
I'm just trying to look at the known facts objectively and without preconcieved bias.
So if you know better and are not in denial or 'believing' then provide a credible answer for this yourself:

1. If this quotation from Hitler's will is supposed to be an admission of mass murder of all Jews, THEN where did it occur and how?

2. Everyone in the entire world has been conditioned to believe the 'how' was by mass-gassing in factories-of-death 'extermination camps'. Yet the empirical evidence of that mass-gassing claim at the sites claimed, is not only non-existent but what evidence remains refute it.
For example the claims for mass-murder by Zyklon B at Birkenau is refuted by the actual empirical evidence.
- The claimed means of introducing the Zyklon B does not fit either the testimony or the architectural remains.
- The time scale claimed for deaths of many hundreds to 2000 people at a time in a cold morgue without any method for kreislauf defies empirical reality.
- The method claimed for removing and disposing of the alleged gassed victims defies empirical reality in both numbers, time and practicability, etc., etc., etc., etc.

This whole forum has been going over these details for many years. What are you doing here and what have you been doing all this time if you have to ask such basic questions??? :ugeek:

Image
Photo of the actual paper that Frau Traudl typed of Hitler's last will from his dictation.
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blake121666
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by blake121666 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:02 pm

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:00 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:47 pm
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:39 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:26 pm
Excerpt from Hitler's Will:
But nor have I left any doubt that if the nations of Europe are once more to be treated only as collections of stocks and shares of these international conspirators in money and finance, then those who carry the real guilt for the murderous struggle, this people will also be held responsible: the Jews! I have further left no one in doubt that this time it will not be only millions of children of Europeans of the Aryan peoples who will starve to death, not only millions of grown men who will suffer death, and not only hundreds of thousands of women and children who will be burned and bombed to death in the cities, without those who are really responsible also having to atone for their crime, even if by more humane means....
Ok. But HOW were they made to atone? And where? And IF he meant mass-murder, what happened to their remains at those locations where the deed was done?

Its no good basing a history on interpretations of written or spoken statements that not only can not be verified but are actually refuted by empirical evidence.
What "empirical evidence" refutes what claims? You're speaking too broadly as a "believer" in your denial. No empirical evidence has refuted the mass slaughter claims. Misunderstandings about the claims have been refuted - not the general claims themselves.
Believer in my denial?? :roll:
I'm just trying to look at the known facts objectively and without preconcieved bias.
So if you know better and are not in denial or 'believing' then provide a credible answer for this yourself:

1. If this quotation from Hitler's will is supposed to be an admission of mass murder of all Jews, THEN where did it occur and how?

2. Everyone in the entire world has been conditioned to believe the 'how' was by mass-gassing in factories-of-death 'extermination camps'. Yet the empirical evidence of that mass-gassing claim at the sites claimed, is not only non-existent but what evidence remains refute it.
For example the claims for mass-murder by Zyklon B at Birkenau is refuted by the actual empirical evidence.
- The claimed means of introducing the Zyklon B does not fit either the testimony or the architectural remains.
- The time scale claimed for deaths of many hundreds to 2000 people at a time in a cold morgue without any method for kreislauf defies empirical reality.
- The method claimed for removing and disposing of the alleged gassed victims defies empirical reality in both numbers, time and practicability, etc., etc., etc., etc.

This whole forum has been going over these details for many years. What are you doing here and what have you been doing all this time if you have to ask such basic questions??? :ugeek:

Image
Photo of the actual paper that Frau Traudl typed of Hitler's last will from his dictation.
Empirical evidence has not refuted a claim of mass gassing at Birkenau. But even if Birkenau was not used for mass gassing of Jews, the AR extermination camps and shootings in the East would still be unrefuted by any "empirical evidence".

The denialist case is ridiculously weak. How do you not see that?

EDIT: Even your use of "kreislauf" in your post is simply your misunderstanding of why that was needed. The main reason for kreislauf in the delousing chambers was for penetration - NOT dispersion rate of the gas. If we assume that the standard delousing usage of Zyklon is not explosive, we then know that the dispersion of HCN is very quick. And we know HCN readily diffuses in air. There's no problem with the statement that Zyklon could be used to kill persons in a room somewhat quickly - within a half hour for the very large morgues alleged to have been used at Birkenau. That there would be an overabundance of persons that get the story wrong is typical for events. That everyone misunderstands the technology involved (such as your misunderstanding of kreislauf) is typical as well.

EDIT 2: And a room full of people would not be "cold", as you say, for very long.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by been-there » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm

Ok where are all the millions of teeth and bone fragments at Birkenau IF nearly a million people WERE gassed there and their cremains put in pools as claimed?

Image

That would be approximately 32 million teeth and many tons of ashes with bone fragments in these pools. So where is the empirical evidence of that?

This has been discussed before:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2856&start=50#p118670

The evaporation rate of Hydrogen Cyanide from Zyklon B was deliberately designed to be extremely slow at low temperatures for safety reasons.
So how could it be lethal for all of 1000 or more people in a large and cold krema in the times claimed by the alleged 'eye witnesses'? Within the claimed ten to twenty minutes less than 20% of the HCN would have been released and so would have only affected those closest. The vast majority of people would have still been conscious and unaffected when the doors were opened. The certainly wouldn't all be dead as claimed. This is the empirical reality of the chemistry involved.

Image

Etc., etc., etc. I find it quite amazing that after all your time here you appear to be unaware of these specific issues. :o
Last edited by been-there on Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by blake121666 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:32 pm

Here are some typical misunderstandings that persons have about what is alleged to have happened:

1. Jews were slaughtered in all camps

This has not been "taught" in my lifetime; but many people understood things in this way - and many still do. Jews were utilized for forced labor. OTHER Jews were slaughtered in various ways. One of those ways is alleged to have been slaughter factories using poison gas.

2. Many persons were aware of this Jewish slaughter

The Jewish slaughter was only on a "need to know" basis. Not many persons were even aware of it.

We should probably open a thread about persons' misunderstandings of what the Holocaust was. It seems to me that when some people learn how they've had the Holocaust claims incorrect in their heads, they think they've somehow "denied" the Holocaust - when in reality they've simply had the story wrong all along.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by blake121666 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:36 pm

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm
Ok where are all the millions of teeth and bone fragments at Birkenau IF nearly a million people WERE gassed there and their cremains put in pools as claimed?

Image

That would be approximately 32 million teeth and many tons of ashes with bone fragments? So where is the empirical evidence of that?

This has been discussed before:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2856&start=50#p118670

The evaporation rate of Hydrogen Cyanide from Zyklon B was deliberately designed to be extremely slow at low temperatures for safety reasons.
So how could it be lethal for all of 1000 or more people in a large and cold krema in the times claimed by the alleged 'eye witnesses'? Within the claimed ten to twenty minutes less than 20% of the HCN would have been released and so would have only affected those closest. The vast majority of people would have still been conscious and unaffected. This is the empirical reality of the chemistry involved.

Image

Etc., etc., etc. I find it quite amazing that after all your time here you appear to be unaware of these specific issues. :o
I told you that even if you were to deny Birkenau that the Holocaust would still not be refuted.

And a room full of people would not be cold for very long. But even if it were (and it wouldn't be) the HCN would still evaporate off as your chart SHOWS! Delousing is done in cold weather as well - but that doesn't even apply to the HGC claims. Those alleged gassing rooms would not have been cold.
Last edited by blake121666 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:36 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:02 pm
.....

Empirical evidence has not refuted a claim of mass gassing at Birkenau.
The denier argument is one of incredulity and ignorance against the empirical evidence there was mass gassing. That is not a credible argument.
But even if Birkenau was not used for mass gassing of Jews, the AR extermination camps and shootings in the East would still be unrefuted by any "empirical evidence".
What denial should be able to produce is empirical evidence there was mass departures from the various camps. It is not credible to claim hundreds of thousands of people left each of the camps at TII, Sobibor, Chelmno, Maly Trostenets, Birkenau and Belzec without leaving any trace at all. No documents, no trace of resettlement, no photos, film, nothing.
The denialist case is ridiculously weak. How do you not see that?
It does not fit into his desired outcome. When someone has been brainwashed into a belief, evidence takes a hike.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by been-there » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:42 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:36 pm
I told you that even if you were to deny Birkenau that the Holocaust would still not be refuted.
The mass-gassing final solution is.That IS refuted! And without that we are just left with a brutal war where millions of civilians persihed, killed by all sides and by hardship.

And surely you understood Birkenau is just ONE example. HOLY MOLY! :o

The same sort of similar practical and technical issues at Treblinka. And Majdanek. And Sobibor... etc., etc.
What's going on Blake? You've been reading here for so long.

By my reckoning, there needs to be about 3000 metric tons of cremains at Birkenau and not much less at Treblinka. There is no evidence yet of anywhere near that amount.

So where is your explanation with empirical evidence for where and how?
Last edited by been-there on Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Nessie » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:43 pm

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm
Ok where are all the millions of teeth and bone fragments at Birkenau IF nearly a million people WERE gassed there and their cremains put in pools as claimed?

.....
According to witnesses, much of the remains was dumped into the nearby river. Other remains were buried;

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschw ... -pits.html

"In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow, was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation Department of the Museum." (Franciszek Piper, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, p. 179n)."
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm

been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm
Ok where are all the millions of teeth and bone fragments at Birkenau IF nearly a million people WERE gassed there and their cremains put in pools as claimed? That would be approximately 32 million teeth and many tons of ashes with bone fragments in these pools. So where is the empirical evidence of that?
This is based on the erroneous belief that human teeth routinely survive cremation unscathed and cannot be ground down to a powdery substance afterward with tools as simple as rocks.

You are also (falsely) assuming that the Nazis would pack all the ash into one convenient spot for someone to find later, rather than scattering it in the surroundings, as per testimony, for wind and weather to disperse over the years.
been-there wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:29 pm
The evaporation rate of Hydrogen Cyanide from Zyklon B was deliberately designed to be extremely slow at low temperatures for safety reasons. So how could it be lethal for all of 1000 or more people in a large and cold krema in the times claimed by the alleged 'eye witnesses'? Within the claimed ten to twenty minutes less than 20% of the HCN would have been released and so would have only affected those closest. The vast majority of people would have still been conscious and unaffected when the doors were opened. The certainly wouldn't all be dead as claimed. This is the empirical reality of the chemistry involved.
Again you are assuming

1) That a large percentage of the HCN contained in the pellets needs to have outgassed for people to start dying (300ppm concentration, as per literature), rather than about 15% (although calculations show this is all that is needed to permeate the chamber from four different spots where the Zyklon has been introduced).

2) That the gas chambers were not heated (again, destroyed by documents such as):

Image

3) That anyone is saying in a room full of panicking, hyperventilating people clawing at and crushing each other, the sole cause of death is a lethal dose of HCN inhalation.
Why is debunking decade-long research by revisionist scholars such an entertaining task for an absolute amateur? Honestly, I have no idea: http://siraaronrichards.imgur.com

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Re: WW2 is a complex subject

Post by been-there » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:00 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:32 pm
...We should probably open a thread about persons' misunderstandings of what the Holocaust was. It seems to me that when some people learn how they've had the Holocaust claims incorrect in their heads, they think they've somehow "denied" the Holocaust - when in reality they've simply had the story wrong all along.
Oh c'mon.

Without the mass-gassing in planned and designed extermination camps there is no 'holocaust'. That is the central theme around which everything is reliant. The 'holocaust' narrative is not that Jews had a particularly hard time. It is that Hitler decided a policy to completely eliminate them from the earth. And we are expected to believe the method chosen was by HCN and CO gas in specific camps.
That's what the out-of-context quoting from Hitler's 'prophecy' speech is supposed to be proof of.
That is what the comment in his last testament is said to refer to.

Haven't you been following the recent posts??
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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