DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by been-there »

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:30 pm
As to Scott's opening statement, I think he is totally wrong there also: if Germany had been able to field thousand-bomber fleets around-the-clock they absolutely would have. They tried. They didn't because they could not.

I don't think they, the Germans, even tried to do that but if they had tried — to the exclusion of almost everything else — they certainly could have and with excellent four-engine bombers as well. But Hitler was NOT the genocidal maniac that Churchill was — or Roosevelt; Hitler even admired the English. Instead, Germany focused on a greater enemy and that was the Stalin's Soviet Union. Can anyone seriously believe that if Germany had NOT expended vast resources on the war with Stalin that it could NOT have bombed London and Britain to microdust?

Throughout the summer of 1940 and well into August, the Luftwaffe was crushing the RAF--but after the five British bombings of Berlin, the luftwaffe shifted to bombing London on September 7, 1940 In the process, that gave the RAF a break they desperately needed.

Even against the Soviets, when did the Germans bomb Leningrad or Moscow the way the Anglos bombed Germany? Nearly all of the public buildings in those cities including the Hermitage and the Kremlin are still standing today.

FPBerg
I agree with Fritz.

Scott, you appear to have lost the plot on this one.
It was the British who started air attacks. For four months we patiently — and perhaps erroneously — held our hands. The German is always restrained by moral scruples, which mean nothing to the British; to the latter such an attitude is merely a sign of weakness and stupidity.
-- A. Hitler. Table talks. 6th September 1942.
Even British historians admit this:
Until now the [German] bombing had been confined to broadly military targets, with the emphasis on airfields and aircraft factories. Hitler had expressly forbidden ‘Terror raids’ on Britain or the bombing of London. He had long hoped that he could somehow arrange a peace with Britain, its conquest had never been part of his long term objectives, he really wanted to turn his attention East.

http://ww2today.com/4th-september-1940- ... l-hit-back
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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by rollo the ganger »

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:48 pm
Scott, finally lets it all hang out. WOW!

Scott wrote: "Then to keep German internal rivalries focused outside the Reich, Bismarck high-handedly annexed Alsace-Lorraine so that Germans would be focused outward, wary of French hatred." Since Scott has never even been to Alsace-Lorraine, he simply does not know that most of the people there speak German as they have since Roman times. Why do you suppose they do that, Scott? Did you ever hear of "Burgundy" and the "Burgundians" who famously captured Joan of Arc? "Strasbourg" and "Mulhouse" and many other city names in the region are not even of French origin. Why is that, Scott?

FPBerg
Indeed Scott!!! Go a little further back in your history. It was Louis the XIV who stole Alsace Lorraine from the Germans two centuries prior and the Germans simply took it back after the Franco Prussian war. "High-handedly"... come on now, really?

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Scott »

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:48 pm

Scott, finally lets it all hang out. WOW!

Scott wrote: "Then to keep German internal rivalries focused outside the Reich, Bismarck high-handedly annexed Alsace-Lorraine so that Germans would be focused outward, wary of French hatred." Since Scott has never even been to Alsace-Lorraine, he simply does not know that most of the people there speak German as they have since Roman times. Why do you suppose they do that, Scott? Did you ever hear of "Burgundy" and the "Burgundians" who famously captured Joan of Arc? "Strasbourg" and "Mulhouse" and many other city names in the region are not even of French origin. Why is that, Scott?

FPBerg

Of course I do. And Germany tended to do very well in later international plebiscites for self-determination, even if they had only a minority of German speakers. The attitude of Alsace-Lorraine to the 1871 German annexation is not my point at all.

For all I know the people in the annexed territories might have been just as happy about German annexation as the Austrians were about the German annexation in 1938, which was wildly popular wherever German was spoken by non-Jews. Of course, Hitler had to lay some diplomatic groundwork to get Italy on board with the Anschluss, and to sacrifice South Tyrol, but that is not my point either.

The setup to the my point is that the ATTITUDE OF FRANCE to this makes "high-handed" an understatement.

French Butthurt over Bismarck's annexation bordered on outright hatred against Germany--and this was indisputably a factor in the enmity that led to the standoff and eventual war with Germany in 1914. It was also factored into Schlieffen's 1906 plan, which accurately predicted that the French would throw everything they had into Alsace-Lorraine.

My actual point was that this FRENCH enmity (hatred) against Germany SWAMPED any enmity that Bavarians might have had towards Prussians, religious or otherwise.

Bismarck recognized this FRENCH enmity (hatred), and so promoting German nationalist sentiment was one of the huge factors that convinced him to proceed.

This is called Realpolitik, which is the exact opposite of what organizations like the EU would do today which tends to promote balkanization and globalization for financial hegemony--and usually using vapid moralistic arguments to get there.

Here is what Wikipedia says about the Annexation and Bismarck's thinking:

Alsace-Lorraine

The modern history of Alsace-Lorraine was largely influenced by the rivalry between French and German nationalism. [...]

In 1871, the newly created German Empire's demand for Alsace from France after its victory in the Franco-Prussian War was not simply a punitive measure. The transfer was controversial even among the Germans: The German Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, was initially opposed to it, as he thought it would engender permanent French enmity toward Germany.[citation needed] Some German industrialists did not want the competition from Alsatian industries, such as the cloth makers who would be exposed to competition from the sizeable industry in Mulhouse. Karl Marx also warned his fellow Germans: "If Alsace and Lorraine are taken, then France will later make war on Germany in conjunction with Russia. It is unnecessary to go into the unholy consequences." [4] [Emphases added.]


The late Walter Sapp, who posted on the Axis History Forum as "Kaschner," and who was a Francophile (and Liberal) Texas lawyer who had married the daughter of the German General Kaschner, sometimes made a similar point too. Walter used to hang out with her family in Strasbourg or Paris and talked history and politics with Hans Speidel, Rommel's Chief-of-Staff at Normandy. Speidel spoke excellent French, according to Walter. (He also didn't think that Speidel or Rommel were directly implicated in the Stauffenberg bomb plot, if I remember correctly.)

More central to the point, I know too many Germans who have told me of the lingering animosity between Bavarians and Prussians, often RELIGIOUS in nature. Our own Wilfried Heink (RIP) posting on RODOH as "neugierig" often said so, for example. Another guy was a Bavarian Engineer Rainer Grimm, who had been in the Hitler Youth and posted as "Goggi" on the Axis History Forum in 2000 when he was retired in California with diabetes--and would be about 88 years old if he were still alive today. Rainer/Goggi wrote extensively about life in wartime Germany and the Occupation. He said that the American Negroes were pretty decent to them during the occupation. Goggi liked to throw around the term "Prussian tentacle," probably ironically, whenever he reminded us that he was Bavarian.

I'm not trying to belabor this point, but in 1871 Bismarck needed considerable political savvy forming a German nation under the Prussian aegis, which could never have worked without considerable Bavarian cooperation. People often downplay Hitler's skill at Realpolitik too. Both sought to end German balkanization.

To the credit of Christianity, they have mostly mended sectarian fences in this regard, even in Ireland. In the 1970s my ex-girlfriend was working as a Librarian in London and there was trash on every street in those days, because if there were trash receptacles placed on the sidewalk the IRA would put bombs in them.

Anyway, Christianity also has a long history of the separation of Church and State, at least in advanced countries like Germany with long histories. This is part of the reason that Prussians had difficulty with Poles for so long. Poles got along a little better with Austrians (Catholics).

One of the reasons that I refuse to sentimentalize about Islam and Muslims is that they are still MEDIEVAL in outlook. I don't care if they do or do not like Israel. In spite of immigration lawyer Yasir Khan waving a copy of the U.S. Constitution at the 2016 Democratic Party Convention, the First Amendment means nothing to them, and this is especially if they are not a small minority. Islam means SUBMIT after all.

Modern Germany did not get to where it is without its History, all of it. But German History can be written from a Marxist perspective just as is currently done about the United States and Europe, and this has been for many decades in the making. It is not new.

:)

“So people are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and a part of my job is to also help people. If there’s somebody hurt, I’m running into harm’s way.
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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg »

No doubt, the return of Alsace-Lorraine to Germany in 1871 exacerbated French hatred of the Germans (the Prussian-Germans had also played a decisive role at Waterloo, for example)--but the French annexation of Alsace-Lorraine under Louis XIV was the root of the problem to begin with. That annexation should N-E-V-E-R have happened. The nationalist revolutions of 1848 told the leaders of Europe that "self-determiantion" of all peoples was demanded. Why should a united German people and nation have put any Germans against their will back in the hands of the French, or English, or anyone other than Germans? Bismarck simply righted a wrong against fellow Germans. Why can't Scott understand that? Too much anti-German brainwashing perhaps??

Scott's all-too typical, American gross misunderstanding of modern history led to the deaths of millions in WW1--and to even more in WW2. As American leaders bumble into Syria today and about which they know even less than they ever did about Central Europe, how can the outcomes be any better? American gross arrogance and ignorance and paranoia all mixed with vast arsenals for destruction will bring on a bigger disaster. Why is America even there except to massage the Jews and Israel?

FPBerg

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Scott »

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:09 am

No doubt, the return of Alsace-Lorraine to Germany in 1871 exacerbated French hatred of the Germans (the Prussian-Germans had also played a decisive role at Waterloo, for example)--but the French annexation of Alsace-Lorraine under Louis XIV was the root of the problem to begin with. That annexation should N-E-V-E-R have happened. Why should a united German people and nation have put any Germans against their will back in the hands of the French, or English, or anyone other than Germans? Bismarck simply righted a wrong against fellow Germans. Why can't Scott understand that? Too much anti-German brainwashing perhaps??

Scott's all-too typical, American gross misunderstanding of modern history led to the deaths of millions in WW1--and to even more in WW2. As American leaders bumble into Syria today and about which they know even far less than they did about Central Europe, how can the outcomes be any better? American gross arrogance and ignorance and paranoia all mixed with vast arsenals for destruction will almost certainly bring on a bigger disaster. Why is America even there except to massage the Jews and Israel?

FPBerg

I didn't say the Annexation was not justified. That point is irrelevant to the point that I made. You are extrapolating my thinking again.

To put it another way, this is like saying that the Austrian Anschluss was not justified because Hitler (for whatever reasons) ultimately brought them into the war--or maybe just because the Jews wanted to leave after the Anschluss so it didn't turn out so well. In History this is called the fallacy of teleology.

Anyway, I wasn't concerned with the issue of who started the war, how, or why, here--nor whether the Annexation was good for Alsace-Lorraine (ultimately or otherwise).

I said that the Prussians and Austrians had a long-standing rivalry which in 1871 was still strong and that French animosity towards Germany (whether from the Annexation of Alsace-Lorraine or for any other reason) helped unite the broken up German tribes.

French hatred of Germany meant that it simply made "sense" for the Catholic Bavarians to dislike the Catholic French more than to dislike the Protestant Prussians, who were their fellow countrymen in the new Kaiserreich.

I am also not arguing that German nationalism was not organic or that it was in any way forced. But Germany had been divided for over 200 years and it took the skill of a Bismarck to put Humpty Dumpty back together. This was just one example of a nuance that Bismarck understood.

Moralistic arguments often mean less than they seem to.

It is easy to write disparaging B.S. about any nation, and Marxists are very good at it. Dissolution and Discord is their goal.

But things are usually more nuanced, even if they don't fit the most moralistic trope. Bismarck knew what he was doing and made rational decisions; that is not a cynical comment. Hitler understood this too and he studied Bismarck intensively even if the Kaiser did not.

I am not a fan of any kind of American Interventionism, in fact, because it is NOT in American national interests in my opinion.

Internationalists are some of the most educated and cosmopolitan people in the world. They and Neocons use hill people like George W. Bush, Obama, Hillary, and even Trump in this respect as TOOLS only.

My nephew is getting his Masters in International Relations at Johns Hopkins--as he was advised to do by his late Grandfather, the Senator. He is now learning his fourth language and has traveled and lived in Third World countries and so forth. Yeah, he's a True Believer, I guess, and he will probably become an Internationalist tool working for the CIA or the State Department or something like that, and basically doing the bidding of ZOG or the Council of Foreign Relations.

Both Roosevelt and Truman's "Brain Trust," and later Kennedy's "Whiz Kids," were some of the most educated people in the world. They were also arguably traitors. They certainly did not serve American national interests. As Senator Joe McCarthy once noted, they are either Communists or just stupid. He didn't see any middle ground.

More later...

:)

“So people are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and a part of my job is to also help people. If there’s somebody hurt, I’m running into harm’s way.
That’s why I have my rifle because I need to protect myself, obviously.
But I also have my med-kit.”

~ "Siege" Kyle Rittenhouse
(Kenosha, WI - 25 AUGUST 2020)

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by NSDAP »

Scott wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:39 am
In History this is called the fallacy of teleology

It would seem there were interests to preserve the integrity of the Deutsche speaking people into an integrated homeland. Considering Herr Hitler was Austrian that is not hard to understand. I do not think it was that political but more emotional based.
Germany had been divided for over 200 years and it took the skill of a Bismarck to put Humpty Dumpty back together. This was just one example of a nuance that Bismarck understood.
Deutschland was not a sound egg ever. The German Empire was founded on January 18, 1871, in the aftermath of three successful wars by the North German state of Prussia. Within a seven-year period Denmark, the Habsburg monarchy, and France were vanquished in short, decisive conflicts. The unification of Germany into a politically and administratively integrated nation state officially occurred on 18 January 1871, in the Hall of Mirrors at the Palace of Versailles in France. Princes of the German states, excluding Austria, gathered there to proclaim Wilhelm I of Prussia as German Emperor after the French capitulation in the Franco-Prussian War. Unofficially, the de facto transition of most of the German-speaking populations into a federated organization of states had been developing for some time through alliances formal and informal between princely rulers—but in fits and starts; self-interests of the various parties hampered the process over nearly a century of autocratic experimentation, beginning in the era of the Napoleonic Wars, which saw the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Deutschland was always split. To suggest it fell of the wall to be broken is not quite accurate but a good analogy.. Thank you Scott.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Scott »

Thanks.

I would suggest also that the real French outrage was not so much emotional over Alsace-Lorraine or something like that, but just the mere fact that German unification meant that after 1871 a German superpower was now sitting on their border. This would be a geopolitcal argument, of course, and not so appealing to the French psyche than some "punitive" perceived outrage. But having an integral German Nation-State now sitting on their border, it might be seen as intolerable as the end of the world itself for the French statesmen. It is often easier to present arguments based on Butthurt or atrocities--real or imagined--than to admit that one is not so thrilled about the competition having just rolled into town.

More later about the strategic bombing issue.

:)

“So people are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and a part of my job is to also help people. If there’s somebody hurt, I’m running into harm’s way.
That’s why I have my rifle because I need to protect myself, obviously.
But I also have my med-kit.”

~ "Siege" Kyle Rittenhouse
(Kenosha, WI - 25 AUGUST 2020)

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg »

Is Scott arguing that Bismark annexed Alsace-Lorraine in order to deliberately provoke and inflame French anti-German hatred--thereby uniting Germans even more than they already were united? Is that one of your arguments, Scott?

FPBerg

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg »

The following image and the way it has been misused shows how criminally insane America truly is:
Image

Is there any evidence that the corpses were of people who had been murdered by the Germans? Of course, not. As unpleasant as the scene is--perhaps thirty or so corpses--it is nothing compared to the horrors of Dresden.--and countless cities that the likes of Eisenhower turned into crematory ovens, deliberately. Are such folks "criminally insane," or not?

Here is some of what Eisenhower had to say to the world that day:
General Dwight D. Eisenhower: “The things I saw beggar description…”
Filed under: Germany, Holocaust, World War II — Tags: Captain Alois Liethen, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, General Geroge S. Patton, General Omar Bradley, Merkers mine, Ohrdruf, USHMM — furtherglory @ 6:44 pm

On the outside of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC there are four plaques with quotes from four presidents, including President Dwight D. Eisenhower. The Eisenhower quote is in the most prominent spot and it is, by far, the most famous:

“The things I saw beggar description…The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering…I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations to propaganda.”
Had these all-American, self-righteous monsters been riding through Germany with their windows blacked out? Had they been on the opposite side of the planet? How can one explain such utter hypocrisy and evilness? The Anglo-Americans had deliberately "roasted" as many Germans to death as possible. They had deliberately turned some of the most beautiful cities anywhere into crematory ovens. But, that was still not even enough for these monsters. Here at Ohrdruf they still felt the moral need to make anti-German, atrocity propaganda. Shame on America--forever and ever!

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010 ... scription/

And a few years later, they repeated their atrocious war crimes against Korean civilians--roasting about two million to death in the process. Read: Bruce Cumings, professor of history at the University of Chicago. Who can sanely blame North Koreans for wanting nuclear missiles to defend themselves from total loonies like Donald Trump--or America in general?

FPBerg
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Scott »

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Is Scott arguing that Bismark annexed Alsace-Lorraine in order to deliberately provoke and inflame French anti-German hatred--thereby uniting Germans even more than they already were united? Is that one of your arguments, Scott?

FPBerg

Close but not exactly. I made a point about a well-known (or so I thought) historical fact about diplomatic history and Realpolitik. Obviously the issue was (or is) much larger and I am not disputing that.

Of course I have been trying to make the point all along that real history can be spun in nefarious ways to make anybody look bad and to remove the nuance and the context.

Statesmen and generals become demigods or heroes become villains. From a fairly-neutral viewpoint I gave an example of how the Marxists and Germany's enemies did this from 1871 and I didn't even have to strike the match. Actually, I didn't even take the match out of the box. And it is well-known that I am not even close to a Germanophobe.

Just as you can construct myth where a hero like George Washington becomes a Christlike demigod, you can do it with statesmen and generals like Bismarck or General Lee if you are not careful. There is nothing wrong with the essential process of historical revision if it is not taken overboard. The Great Man Theory of History (Thomas Carlyle) is good but has its limitations. Usually these heroes and sometimes villains have ordinary (and not necessarily good or bad) motives and reasonings.

I have no doubt that Churchill was a Genocidal Madman, with Lord Cherwell at his side--the others not so much--or at least the generals on both sides. And I should not have to state how I feel about Roosevelt and Morgenthau, so let's not read anything into this that is not there.

I am still divided about Bomber Harris. I still haven't read Harris' memoirs, which should be worthwhile since he didn't pull punches. Harris was probably deluded but that is not so unusual when it comes to warfare; so was General Haig, and many others.

To say that one side have holy warriors who dindu nuffin and the other side are Genocidal Madmen is incredibly naïve. I can deconstruct the Luftwaffe mythology either way and I admire them greatly, in fact, so let's not read into this anything that isn't there. I will get to more of that later if I can.

I was disappointed about the recent movie Dunkirk where there wasn't even anything left to deconstruct here, because apparently today's audiences are so historically naïve that they don't even know the historical mythology to begin with other than it was in World War II or something.

Other than comfy snippets of speeches by Churchill at the end of the movie as the train rolls by, and the obligatory bit with the plucky fishing boats that shot out to rescue soldiers trapped on the beach, the movie had almost no political or military context at all. What myth is left is to deconstruct?

David Irving doesn't seem to think that Bomber Harris was a Genocidal Madman, and he brought Dresden to the attention of the English-speaking world and articulated the matter in a way that gave courage to Germans to talk about it openly. The 1963 publication of his landmark book came at the time and context of the Cold War and Mutual-Assured Destruction, so we still have to take it with a grain of salt just like ANYTHING ELSE.

Today it has become a political gesture to talk about how many were killed at Dresden, which is okay if you are a Leftist. And the Establishment doesn't seem to mind so much if the body-count does not rise about 35 thousand or so--about what England suffered from bombing in the entire war or (lowball) thereabouts. The powers-that-be seem to prefer a more absurdly lowball figure of 17-25 thousand dead at Dresden. Why is that? It's not just because they were Germans. The Hamburg firebombing was approximately 40 thousand and nobody seems to object to that figure one way or another.

It is an outrage that the Communists that run Germany and most of Europe today eschew remembrance of Dresden. They have been indoctrinated by muh Holocaust and other self-hating propaganda just like the Americans. They would instead prefer that you remember Belsen and the Bulldozers. It sounds like a hip-hop theater company.

But the stage is being setup to double-cross the Americans too with Marxist interpretations of history, and I have seen it first-hand on college campuses over the decades. We are already prostrating ourselves but we don't know it yet because they still allow us to put plastic flags on our lawns as after 9/11.

More later ...

:)

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“So people are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and a part of my job is to also help people. If there’s somebody hurt, I’m running into harm’s way.
That’s why I have my rifle because I need to protect myself, obviously.
But I also have my med-kit.”

~ "Siege" Kyle Rittenhouse
(Kenosha, WI - 25 AUGUST 2020)

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