DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:46 pm

The following essay has real "holocaust" pictures: http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-d ... -ii-2018-2

Even if the numbers murdered by the attack on Dresden were as few as 25,000 as is sometimes claimed Instead of 100's of thousands as others claim, it was a monstrous and despicable war-crime for which Amercans and Brits should all be deeply ashamed. But not to worry, folks--Americans and Brits are so vile to begin with and have been so thorughly brainwashed in addition that they are ashamed of nothing. Even David Irving in his book Dresden included several paragraphs at the end of the book insisting that the Germans got what they deserved. Up yours, Mr. Irving!
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She looks so much like the dried-out corpse in Alfred Hitchcock's "Psycho." A day earlier, she was possibly a proud and beautiful woman. If she had only been Jewish, this horrible picture would be shown everywhere to condemn Germans and others somehow, once again, and grab even more money for Greater Israel.

About a month after the Dresden war-crime, the Brits also destroyed Wuerzburg on March 16 murdering 7,000 civilians in the process. I might have been among them if my parents had been deported from the USA earlier. My grandparents historic house was only four nblocks away at 22 Neubaustrasse. It was totally destroyed. Wuerzburg was every bit as stunningly beautiful as Dresden, albeit much smaller. https://europeupclose.com/article/germa ... -residenz/ https://europeupclose.com/article/wurzb ... to-bavaria

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Is there any place in America with its vast riches, blah, blah, blah, etc.--which compares even remotely with the exquisite beauty of Wuerzburg--and especially it's "Residenz?" Of course, not!

Many other small but breathtakingly beautiful, small German cities were also destroyed, deliberately with "firebombing"--even Rothenburg-ob-der-Tauber, that well-known showpiece for millions of tourists today. Did the Germans destroy Rome or Paris when they could no longer hold on? Of course, not. Some nations are "civilized," others are NOT.

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On March 31, 1945 bombs were dropped over Rothenburg by 16 planes, killing 37 people and destroying 306 houses, six public buildings, nine watchtowers, and over 2,000 feet (610 m) of the wall.

Let us "NEVER FORGET" how morally deranged and sick Americans truly are. Most Americans actually believe Tom Brokaw's claim that "they were the greatest generation." Americans are, in fact, a sick nation of self-righteous "psychos" and savages and criminals. For them, President Trump is perfect. With 9/11, they got o-n-l-y a small taste of their own medicine.

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

There were NO “limited gassings!” There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!

http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html
The REAL Mass Murderers were the Anglo-Americans and the Jews themselves!
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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Scott » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:51 am

From the Business Insider article link posted above by Fritz, I find the photograph below rather EMBLEMATIC ...

On the left we have Dresden from the Town Hall Tower after the 1945 attack -- and on the Right seventy years later, it is the view from the same August Schreitmueller sandstone sculpture overlooking ... a PARKING LOT.


A wasteland of pointless warfare and a wasteland of the postwar consumer rat-race :

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How did we get to this point? There are many points-of-view and no doubt many to be blamed, but no easy answers.



I would like to visit Dresden some day--perhaps when I visit the annual giant Ham Radio Fest at Friedrichshafen when I tour the extensive technical museums there. Friedrichshafen is an industrial city on Lake Constance where the Zeppelins were developed, as well as the Maybach engines used in the Tiger and Panther tanks, for example.


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Last year I visited the Trinity atomic bomb test site and the aerospace museums near Alamogordo, New Mexico and the White Sands Missile Range, which is only open to the public for one day on the Columbus Day weekend and another day in the Spring.

There was so much to see that I will have to go again. But it was a lot of fun after my trip to Idaho to photograph the 2017 Total Solar Eclipse two months earlier. White Sands is where the German rocket team led by Wernher von Braun launched V-2 missiles after the war and developed rocketry for Project Paperclip and the U.S. Army Ballistic Missile Agency.


Below:
Generals John Medaris and Holger Toftoy of the ABMA - Redstone with Wernher von Braun, their technical director in the 1950s.


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Sixty years ago the Russians launched Sputnik (i.e., "Satellite") in October, 1957 so President Eisenhower finally gave the go-ahead for ABMA to launch their own satellite--and all von Braun had to do was dust off an old Army missile and launch Explorer into Earth orbit from Cape Canaveral, Florida in January of 1958. Eisenhower had expressly ordered against this previously, fearing the USA being the first nation to take the arms race to outer space. This cautious policy was later used against Vice President Nixon by Senator Kennedy during the 1960 Presidential election. JFK's "Missile Gap" was in fact a lie because the U.S. Army was extremely well experienced in rocketry, and the U.S. Air Force was already developing Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, but this Missile Gap claim was not falsifiable because the data was classified and no expert would have wanted to go there.

In any case, the Navy had spectacularly failed with space exploration with their Project Vanguard, so Eisenhower created a CIVILIAN space agency called NASA in 1958 to coincide with the International Geophysical Year, which was an amazing year for Amateur Radio ionospheric wave propagation that also coincided with this so-called Sputnik Crisis. The SputnikCrisis/Missile Gap prompted the country to invest in the scientific training of engineers and technicians, which is why my Dad got into aerospace and nuclear weapons testing, reactor safety, alternative energy, and so forth.

In my opinion, however, these national scientific and space exploration goals were all but destroyed by the Civil Rights and neo-Marxist movements, the Vietnam War, and the legacy crop of Globalist Interventionism that drains the oxygen from government budgets and other funding.

One of my fondest memories was watching the Moon Landing on TV on the Sunday evening of July 20, 1969 and how proud my Dad and my Uncle were of having worked for NASA contractors as engineers on the Moon project over the decade.


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Almost fifty years later, I don't know what happened. How did we go from a country that could land men on the Moon to a dystopian mess with air pollution and an energy shortage, the life expectancy actually falling, where almost nobody owns their own home, and where college graduates are likely saddled for a lifetime of debt. And no, by "dystopian mess," I am not talking about the Trump election, a minor hope in a huge sargasso sea, made not of seaweed but of plastic trash, reminiscent of a phony, corrupt Washington, DC swamp that nobody seems capable of draining. The mass-media keeps promoting the Big Lie that Trump is the cause of all this and not the potential way out, just as General Ludendorff was blamed for the German defeat in World War I, as explained by Hitler in Mein Kampf. Not that Trump is in the same league as General Ludendorff in any respect but Big Lies work the same.

So back to my bucket list... I still have not visited the largest Ham Fest in the U.S. at Dayton, Ohio. My Dad has worked there and toured the aerospace museums nearby at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and so on. This is where the Wright Brothers setup shop and this was the home for the U.S. Army Air Corps, which was once a branch of my own U.S. Army Signal Corps.

But that is not all. The second largest Ham Fest in the U.S. is at Huntsville, Alabama at the Wernher von Braun convention center. Huntsville became a munitions center and grew with income from ammonia production made possible by Tennessee Valley Authority hydro-electricity. The U.S. Army Redstone arsenal at Huntsville did a heavy amount of research for the Army Chemical Corps and later on rocketry, where ABMA was based. There are many aerospace museums near Redstone and the Marshall Space Flight Center. Yes, my Dad visited those too when he was called back to work for Thiokol, the munitions company that developed the solid-fuel motors used on the Minuteman Missile and the Space Shuttle solid rocket boosters, the later of which blew up on launch in 1986. I have already been to the Mission Control museum at Houston, Texas in 1977 when I was in the Civil Air Patrol, which maybe kicked off my aerospace museums bucket list odyssey that I need to get working on. The late Revisionist Dr. Robert H. Countess was once a U.S. Army chaplain at Hunstsville.


The point is that weapons can be put to all kinds of uses, good or bad. Sixty years ago the arms race with the Soviets in the 1950s was turned into NASA, a civilian space exploration agency, after the U.S. Navy had failed with space exploration.


On the other hand, the U.S. Air Force was basically forced to develop Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, against General Curtis LeMay's wishes. LeMay did not believe in using robots to fight wars. The only crews that suffered higher losses than strategic bombers in World War II were German U-Boat crews. More bomb tonnage was dropped on Vietnam by the Johnson and Nixon administrations that was used in all of World War II. General LeMay considered this insane. The only justification for this kind of (mis-) application of force is to win wars. Either win them or don't get in them in the first place.

In 1961, after his election, President Kennedy started issuing his famous challenge to land men on the Moon and bring them back home safely to the Earth by the end of the decade. President Johnson saw NASA as though it were like a New Deal TVA or WPA program and enthusiastically supported and continued Kennedy's vision on space exploration.

Incidentally, this is why Texas became significant to the space program, which benefited hugely from the patronage of the Johnson Administration. For example, it is no accident that Bernard Adolphus Schriever, the father of rocketry for the U.S. Air Force was a Texan. Bernard Schriever was born in Bremen in 1910 and was naturalized as a U.S. citizen in Texas in 1924; he completed his technical studies there, and then served as an Army Air Service pilot in the Pacific under General Curtis LeMay in World War II. As a U.S. Air Force general after the war, Bernard Schriever, developed ICBMs and rocketry for the Air Force, including the Atlas ICBM which launched John Glenn into orbit in 1962.


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Then the Great Society ran its course, and the Kennedy-McNamara-Johnson war in Vietnam bankrupted the country. President Nixon was elected in 1968 and started to pull the plug on the Great Society after supporting the Moon Landing. This launched a long national decline, where simple engineering/technical problems like energy cannot be solved politically. Trying to turn space exploration into a Multikulti or international endeavor has been uninspiring as well. In 1971, after the American SST (supersonic transport) program was cancelled, my Dad and his engineer friends were talking about giving it up and putting their money together to start an old-fashioned gas station franchise. Good thing they didn't because the oil embargo and energy crisis began two years later. Say goodbye to an Art Deco future with flying cars and trips to Mars and welcome in the 1970s ...

Recently I watched the new Spielberg movie about the Washington Post and the "Pentagon Papers" affair in 1971. The film stars Tom Hanks as Ben Bradlee and Meryl Streep as Katherine Graham and lionizes how courageous they were to publish these stolen top secret papers after a court injunction had already hit the New York Times which had beaten them to the scoop. The Pentagon Papers was a top secret study commissioned for Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara by the Rand Corporation in the mid-1960s, and was later pilfered by a Jew named Daniel Ellsberg and leaked first to the NYT and then to WaPo.

The Spielberg movie, while interesting, is mostly a diatribe against the Nixon Administration and some kind of Feminist homage to "Kate the Great" and the Liberal Democrats as bearing of the torch of Democracy at the WaPo. Daniel Ellsberg is a hero today, but Edward Snowden, the computer analyst who leaked classified information about Obama Administration electronic spying, is still living in exile.




The most interesting thing about The Pentagon Papers is that they show that McNamara, Kennedy and Johnson knew that the Vietnam campaign was not militarily winnable.

The Vietnam project was an extrapolation of Communist Containment and modern globalist imperialism that was not meant to be won--like the Korean "police action," as Truman called it. The Containment Doctrine, which was outlined in 1947 in George F. Kennan's famous article in Foreign Affairs, the journal published by the plutocratic Council on Foreign Relations.

John F. Kennedy's vision was to make Communist Containment more proactive with a "Flexible Response" of proxy wars against Munich-like "Appeasement and Aggression" and driven by post-colonial public relations strategies and enlightened "Hearts and Minds" Special Forces military campaigns.

During the Johnson Administration, escalating the Vietnam War was an example of investing good money after bad that was long known could never be conventionally won--and Secretary of Defense "Dr. Strangebob" McNamara, its architect, knew this at the time. It is easy to see that McNamara was covering his @ss after Johnson's inevitable downfall, and also setting the stage for Bobby Kennedy's coup to win the Democratic Party nomination in the election of 1968. When RFK was assassinated, the Democratic Party went into a bitter civil war from 1968-72 about keeping the Vietnam War plank of the Great Society going or going peacenik. Richard Nixon was thus elected twice, the second time by a landslide. That is when the hippies and the race-mixers and the Jewish Feminists gained control over the Democratic Party, which has now completely lost the White working class.

Take us to 2016 and President Trump has ignited a long-simmering civil war in the GOP about what to do with immigration policy. The GOP establishment "Cucks" and the "RINOs" like Senators John MCain and Jeff Flake, Rep. Paul Ryan, and Gov. Mitt Romney, etc. infinitely love the idea of open borders and cheap immigrant labor and cuckholding their own White voter base; they refuse to admit that the Democratic Party is now the Party of neo-Marxists and People of Color, and that the GOP will never get this constituency. Once the Baby Boomers die and Whites become the demographic minority the United States, the GOP is finished and this will become a brown Third World country. The plutocrats and Globalists will have won.

It should not be forgotten that Western Civilization is Europeans and what they have created in the world. Anything else is Capitalist/Marxist materialism,

When and if that kind of "Progress" happens, we can forget forever about accomplishments like "landing men on the Moon and returning them home safely to the Earth." We will have a country about as functional as Zimbabwe, filled with "Noble Savages," and where life is "nasty, brutish, and short," in spite of Hollywood tropes like the new Black Panther movie based on the Stan Lee comic book, where the Negroes of "Wakanda" in Africa did the flying cars and space bit (because White men dressed like medical missionaries were not there to steal it from them).

And don't get me started on the 2016 Hidden Figures film, where some sassy Sistahs do da "Maff" for NASA and put John Glenn's pink heinie into "Earff orbit." At least the fictional Black Panther comic is not claimed to be History. Not yet anyway. :roll:






History may not always be pretty but we need to take it back. Ignoring Dresden and other triumphs and tragedies does justice to no one.

:)

Below:
The Trinity Site "Ground Zero" where the first atomic bomb was detonated on July 16, 1945.
Photo taken by me on the morning of October 6, 2017 on the White Sands Missile Range near Alamogordo, NM.


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“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by rollo the ganger » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:24 pm

Quite an editorial you have there Scott.
Scott wrote:Eisenhower had expressly ordered against this previously, fearing the USA being the first nation to take the arms race to outer space.
I also recall that the Soviets, prior to Sputnik, had argued that Soviet airspace, or that of any nation, extended beyond the atmosphere and into outer space. For that reason there was some concern that a satellite launched into orbit by the U.S., crossing over the Soviet Union, might be interpreted as an Act of War upon the Soviets by the United States. The issue became moot, of course, when the Soviets launched Sputnik. They now had no basis to make a claim that an orbiting satellite in outer space above the Soviet Union was violating their sovereign airspace for now they would have to admit they had committed an act of war against every nation Sputnik passed over.

Eisenhower let the issue resolve itself by allowing the Soviets to be the first to launch a satellite into orbit to avoid an international "broo ha ha" and give the Soviets something else to pound their shoes about at the UN.

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:21 pm

And now, some light entertainment for your "breakfast" from the IHR website and Mark Weber:



If Americans ever want to see what "evil" really looks like, they need only look into any mirror. Have they "roasted" enough innocent people yet? Not likely.

If Americans get enough guns into their own hands, perhaps they will "exterminate" themselves. Good Riddance!

One feature of the video that makes it especially credible is the fact that the speaker was English. When Germans speak about what they saw and experienced, it seems too fantastic--such is the power of a century of racist brainwashing. And, it goes on and on. The ONLY victims who really matter are the Jews.

FPBerg
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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by rollo the ganger » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:06 am

Recall that American Author Kurt Vonnegut was at Dresden as a Prisoner of War and experienced the bombing and the aftermath. He wrote about it too. The English gentleman in your video was correct. We should never forgive those who ordered this bombing. Even the victors should be answerable to "Justice" and "Crimes against Humanity".

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Scott » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:25 pm

Oh come on, America and guns in their own hands? if Germany had been able to field thousand-bomber fleets around-the-clock they absolutely would have. They tried. They didn't because they could not.

In 1940, the Luftwaffe did not have any strategic bombers available because they could not afford to build them. The medium bombers barely had the range to attack a third of England, and this considerably simplified British air defense operations. The heavy-fighter escorts did not have the speed to avoid the RAF interceptors, and the Messerschmitt fighters did not have the range, even from forward bases in France, for more than 10 or 15 minutes of operations barely inside enemy territory.

Churchill knew 1) that the Americans would enter the war eventually thanks to Roosevelt, even though in 1940 Americans were 80 percent or greater adamantly opposed to war with Germany, and 2) that the Luftwaffe would not be able to pound England into oblivion one way or another, and 3) that the German Navy was a ghost fleet, which meant that there would absolutely NOT be an invasion attempt. The Battle of Britain was a costly bluff on Hitler's part.

Hitler did not want to fight England because he did not believe it to be in Germany's national interest--and that is why he was extremely reluctant to resort to strategic bombing.

I won't go into the Dunkirk angle here but it is a myth on both sides. The recent movie on Dunkirk, which I saw in impressive Imax 3D, was moody and atmospheric but basically disappointing historically. The Christopher Nolan movie at least did not portray the Germans as monsters--but then it hardly portrayed the Germans at all.




Full Luftwaffe rearmament to include "Ural Bombers" was absolutely not possible for Germany before the war any more than completing Admiral Raeder's Plan Z for German Kriegsmarine rearmament could be completed in peacetime before 1942 at the earliest. The German Navy was forced to settle on U-Boats which were a threat to shipping and not meant to fight capital ships. The Kriegsmarine was lucky to get any air support at all.

All air forces at the time believed strongly that strategic bombing could win wars all by itself, and Göring would have followed this logic as well for the same reason that all navies want their blue-water fleets of capital ships.

So Göring did what was possible and geared the Luftwaffe to Army support. Fortunately the German Army and Air Force developed impressive operational doctrine linking armor and motorized troops to air support as flying artillery by means of electronic communication--what we today call Blitzkrieg. This worked well in Poland, France, and initially Russia until it ran out of logistical steam. This operational vision is what earned Göring the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross and his promotion to Reichsmarschall after the defeat of France, when several other Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe generals including Erhard Milch were promoted to Field Marshal.

The 1940 Field Marshal Ceremony

In any case, if the Germans could have magnified the V-weapons by an order or two of magnitude they would have been decisive. They were willing to expend the lives of 20 thousand prisoner laborers to dig the bombproof underground factory at Nordhausen-Dora in record time in order to build 600 V-2 rockets a month, many of which were duds, and half of which had to be fired in developmental testing of a weapon which still needed a few years of intensive development. General Dornberger discusses this extensively in his memoirs, as does Albert Speer. David Irving wrote about this in his Mares Nest and even counted the Mittelwerk company invoices so that we know exactly how many rockets were actually produced.

In the excellent 1979 book The Rocket Team by Frederick Ordway III, we have a comprehensive history of von Braun and his colleagues from Kummersdorf and Peenemunde to the Redstone and Marshall days and the Saturn V rocket and the Moon Landing.

General Dornberger, the German artillery officer who discovered von Braun and set the technical specifications for the A4/V2 rocket, notes in his memoirs that the V-2 needed hypergolic fuels and a decent proximity fuse, but neither were developed in time. Peenemunde was put on low priority status in 1939 at the start of the war until the concept was successfully proved in 1942 and then put on top priority status, but it was too-little/too-late.

Even if one argues--as I do--that the V- "payback" Weapons were for strategic deterrence and not "terror bombing," whatever that even means, there is little difference between a city-busting attack by four-engine bombers and a V-1 or V-2 attack except by order of magnitude.

And there is no way that it can be argued that the Germans would not have been--and actually were whenever they could be--just as ruthless as their enemies.

Germany developed new nerve gases before the war. Hitler was urged to use them to prevent the Allied invasion. Hitler refused to do so--not because he was a sentimental artist or because he had been gassed himself as a soldier during the last war--but because his experts could not assure him that the enemy did not have anything better to hit them back with. This is a completely rational position, not a moralistic one.

And further, even if the enemy only used mustard gas, as in the last war, the Anglo-American monopoly on global oil supplies meant that they could with little effort supply hundreds of times more ethylene to produce chemical warfare agents than Germany ever could have.

The military experts of all nations concluded after World War I that the only way that poison gas is decisive in warfare is 1) if the enemy cannot provide countermeasures to chemical attacks, and 2) if the enemy cannot mount a credible counterattack as a deterrent.

This is why gas is rarely used, and was in fact used by the British against colonial Iraq in 1922 and by Italy against colonial Abyssinia in 1938. That is why the German Tabun, Sarin, and Soman nerve gases remained either in unused stockpiles or in the laboratory during WWII.

Then there is the Manhattan Project and the question of the atomic bomb. Director Oppenheimer quoted the Bhagavad Gita about the Trinity atom bomb test:

" I am become Death - the Destroyer of Worlds "





Okay, but let us not wax too eschatological about this. There is no reason that atomic weapons are not reasonable in a military or strategic context. The most humane application of atomic weapons would be a so-called Neutron Bomb. This is simply a small-scale tactical nuke where the bulk of its energy is focused on troop concentrations and not on collateral damage.

In any case, there is no doubt that the Jewish scientists who built the atomic bomb were disappointed that it was dropped on Japan instead of Germany.

Jews have historically hated Russians, Poles, and Germans--and in that order. This is ultimately why the establishment mass-media bleats endlessly today about "Russian conspiracies." This is in fact one of the marker traits of Neoconservatives, who are invariably "Red Diaper Baby" Jews, and some like Irving Kristol actually came from a Trotskyite background.

It can be argued that Jews hate all Gentiles to some degree, and that this is proportional to the power that these Gentile nations possess. This implies that Jews will ultimately hate Americans the most of all. But let's leave the Jewish Question alone for a moment.

If the Germans had been able to make an atomic bomb, there is NO DOUBT that it would have been used.

There is no way that a single or even two atomic bombs could have won World War II either unless the country possessing them had been able to develop the infrastructure to repeat the process on a regular basis. This is exactly what the Manhattan Project did. There was one bomb tested, two used on Japan, a third ready to use, and after that a production schedule of at least a bomb per month for the rest of 1945. The only nation in the world that could have done this industrially in the middle of WWII was the United States.

Although the V-Weapons program was actually more expensive than the Manhattan Project, much of this was due to higher costs of strategic materials and shortage of skilled manpower in wartime Germany.

It would have been very difficult for Germany to have accomplished even a single atomic bomb, and it would only have been doable if it had been an early German priority like rocketry, which was motivated by prewar limitations from the Versailles Treaty which banned heavy artillery. A similar situation was true of jet engines--the interest for which was motivated more by the German lack of high-octane gasoline and a desire to use cheaper grades of oil than by any far-sighted aerospace vision.

Even if Hitler had directly asked for an atomic bomb--and even if this were intended merely for roasting Jews in New York City, or for whatever reasons, real or imagined, Prof. Werner Heisenberg was not the man to head such weapons research. He was not qualified.

Werner Heisenberg was a brilliant theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate, but he was not a gifted experimentalist like Enrico Fermi, the Italian-American Nobel laureate and theoretical physicist who had achieved a controlled nuclear chain reaction in 1942. Heisenberg was still struggling for this in vain in 1945 when the war ended.

Germany had the talented military engineers and other talented personnel for atomic research but did not have the luxury of taking unproven risks with precious resources for something on the scale of the Manhattan Project. Building isotope separation plants and plutonium production reactors would have been every bit as daunting as building synthetic oil or rubber production plants.

Atomic weapons research might have provided Germany with a credible deterrent potential and possibly some diplomatic leverage, however, which is why the Germans developed and produced nerve gases at considerable cost, even though the military did not really want them.

The Radiochemist Otto Hahn, who proved the concept of atomic fission in 1938, and whom David Irving interviewed in his research on this subject, considered it a personal failure that he and his German colleagues had failed with atomic weapons research and could not provide either an atomic bomb or a credible deterrent. That was proven with the clandestine Farm Hall recordings of intimate conversations between captured German scientists.

Returning to Dresden...

All countries do what they have to do to win wars. That has always been the case in war and the only firm rule is that people will die and be hurt and destroyed.

If nations are not willing to bear sacrifices--including to civilians who in every way support the war effort just by their existence--then they might as well become pacifists, not build weapons and train armies, and just SURRENDER to all comers.


Dresden was a War Crime, not because civilians were hurt or because there were fewer military or strategic targets there, but because it was overkill that was UNNECESSARY and NOT DECISIVE for victory.

And this is even within the confines of the Allied Policy of Unconditional Surrender, which if it is not a War Crime of itself, is certainly bound to intensify the carnage by making the terms of peace elusive, possibly to the point of annihilation.

Dresden should absolutely be remembered--especially in Germany. Dresden was a War Crime, but compared to the Allied Policy of Unconditional Surrender, not so much.

:!:

To Fritz's murky point on terms of national character and ethnic virtue, I have briefly mentioned the Jewish Question but there are many other issues, of course.

The American national character is almost half ethnic German for good or for bad. Germans have often been demonized but so have Scots-Irish and Southerners.

In fact, all White people are demonized today by the establishment media and in academia. We are supposed to have Genocided the Noble Savages. But this is Marxist propaganda from start to finish and probably off-topic for this discussion.

The United States fought a bloody Civil War, supposedly over slavery, even though it was the United States itself that ended the Slave Trade in 1808, which blew the pillars out of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Caribbean sugar plantations, where slaves were worked to death and then cheaply replaced, were far more brutal than anything ever practiced on Southern cotton plantations, which were regulated by state laws. Almost no one talks about the Arab slave trade. And Africa has always been a barbaric land. The idea that the Antebellum planter-aristocracy were paragons of Man's Inhumanity to Man is complete nonsense. Slavery sucked and cheapened the value of the labor of the White working class, but getting rid of this "peculiar institution" was not an easy problem. What do you do with the Negroes? No longer having a stake in the slave trade, Northerners were fine with manumission or emancipation--as long as the Negroes stayed in the South.

By raising Federal troops against Southern states, and deliberately provoking more states to secede from the Union, Mr. Lincoln found a way to turn a rich man's war into a poor man's fight and still not solve the Race Question. As Civil War historian Shelby Foote once remarked, turning crusades like the War Between the States into morality plays "is a uniquely American thing to do."

:!:

To the issue of comparing the German national character to the American, this is really an apples and oranges diatribe.

The USA is still a young nation. Germany has a longer history. In the 17th century Germans killed each other not over Negroes but over Christian sectarianism. Eight million Protestant Germans and Catholic Germans killed each other in the Thirty Years War. The aftermath of this was German balkanization which lasted for over two centuries. In order to achieve German national unification under the Prussian aegis, Bismarck had to fight the Austrian Empire, Denmark, and France. Then to keep German internal rivalries focused outside the Reich, Bismarck high-handedly annexed Alsace-Lorraine so that Germans would be focused outward, wary of French hatred.

To the issue of German immigrants to America, a lot of these were religious whackjobs, like the Anabaptists or the Born-Agains of German extraction. Benjamin Franklin complained about them in Pennsylvania. They wanted to live the Godly life as though they were chosen like the Jews and not speak to the "English." Ultimately they assimilated but you can still see this in the Amish and Mennonite communities who eschew modern technology and try to live insular lives like Jews in ghettos. Actually they will happily use technology if it is on a small-farm scale that does not force them to interact too much with Gentiles/English--and thus it is easier to apply Groupthink to everyday life situations where your horseshoe or buggy guy is your co-religionist neighbor that your community can shun into submission rather than to the "English" power grid or the all-powerful Gentile government.

Immigration of religious zealots, especially to Puritan New England, is one of the reasons for the Second American Awakening of the early 19th century that began in New York State, where the Mormon movement came from.

Abolitionism also had a very nasty, hypocritical and violent streak. These are the kinds of people who believe that God wants the world to burn in Hell. These "Transcendentalists" and "John Browns" will happily see over 600 thousand dead to free Negro slaves or burn cities into cinders to save Jews from the Devil.

An excellent and mostly non-judgemental history about the organic American national character is Albion's Seed by Brandeis Prof. David Hackett Fischer. Understanding where we came from is an important antidote to the neo-Marxist propaganda which asserts that White Males are the crux of the problem.

Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America (1989)

" Fischer describes Albion's Seed as a modified Teutonic germ theory within the framework of the Frontier Thesis and the migration model. "


No student of real American History can get a grade without being familiar with the works of Frederick Jackson Turner and Charles and Mary Beard. Turner developed the "Frontier Thesis" in academic American history, and argued that the West was settled by 1890, thus ending the Frontier. I won't go into too much of this and the notion of American Exceptionalism, which is also a source of great mischief.

But the end of the Frontier (1890) led to an existential crisis, and this is when the country started to transition from a Nation to an Empire, when Monroe Doctrine gave way to Multicultural Global Interventionism over the course of the 20th century. I would argue that there are other ways to create frontiers of progress and that the "White Man's Burden" as Kipling called imperialism--now Globalism--is a path to ruin because all Cultures are not in fact equal, nor capable of learning "Enlightenment."

Also the notion that White people have some kind of noblesse oblige to save Untermenschen from themselves is hugely misguided. If anything, White people and Europeans, but Germans and Anglos in particular, have a very unseemly trait of Christian Universalism and pathological altruism which is easily exploited by our alien enemies.

Marxism sought to make all men equal--but some were more equal than others, of course. And this was reflected in some Enlightenment thinking that Marx drew upon. Locke believe that all men were blank slates, tabula rasa. That this would lead to alienation and materialism is explained away in many ways. Rousseau believed that all men were inherently Good--that CIVILIZATION itself and not Human Nature was the great corrupter. This is where we get the nihilistic ideal of the "Noble Savage" from. With neo-Marxism and Jewish Feminism the "goodness" is assigned proportionally to skin color, and the "progressive" goal then becomes the "decolonization" of White/European "Patriarchy."

Another excellent source is from the Harvard Professor of History Charles A. Beard, and he and his wife, Mary were hugely influential American historians. In 1913, Beard wrote the classic An Economic Interpretation of the United States Constitution, an important corrective which argues that the Founding Fathers were not demigods, but propelled by ordinary economic motives, and less so by abstract ideologies.

Ordinary people fought the British crown for Independence because the 1763 Treaty of Paris blocked American Westward expansion in order to preserve lucrative trade deals with the French and Indians, who had been organized to terrorize American settlers on the Frontier. This conflict was not completely settled until after the War of 1812.

Charles and Mary Beard also emphasized the economic issues of the Civil War over the abolitionism and morality tropes.

Charles A. Beard

The Beards announced that the Civil War was really a "social cataclysm in which the capitalists, laborers, and farmers of the North and West drove from power in the national government the planting aristocracy of the South". [39] They argued that the events were a second American Revolution. [40]


Charles Beard is now in the academic Memory Hole because he was an Isolationist and an authentic Progressive, who was bitterly opposed to Roosevelt's efforts to intervene in World War II.

Isolationism--in reality Nationalism and non-Interventionism--is the only authentic American Foreign Policy. It dates back to Washington/Hamilton and the early Federalists and did not die until Charles Lindbergh was discredited after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor which compelled American entry into World War II.

The only neo-Isolationist academic that I can think of is Andrew Bacevich, a Prof. Emeritus of International Relations and History at Boston University. He is a former U.S. Army colonel and a graduate of West Point. Bacevich has been heavily critical of American Foreign Policy since 9/11 and his son was killed in the Army in Iraq in 2007.

Andrew Bacevich

In his article "Non Believer" in the July 7, 2010, issue of The New Republic, Bacevich compared President George W. Bush, characterized as wrong-headed but sincere, with President Obama, who, he says, has no belief in the Afghanistan war but pursues it for his own politically cynical reasons: "Who is more deserving of contempt? The commander-in-chief who sends young Americans to die for a cause, however misguided, in which he sincerely believes? Or the commander-in-chief who sends young Americans to die for a cause in which he manifestly does not believe and yet refuses to forsake?" [14]


This is enough of an American History lesson for today.

:mrgreen:


But I would like to point out that the History books that my Dad used in High School and College in the 1950s--which I studied intensively as a kid--were infinitely superior to what passes for the History textbooks today, which is mostly about muh Holocaust and the "Genocide" of People of Color, the oppression of Women and perverts, etc.

Even when I took my Junior year of U.S. History in High School in the 1970s, much time was spent on the incredibly complex nuances involved in these matters, such as the Civil War. But this is simply not the case today. That is why we need to take our History back.

The biggest War Crime of all is hypocrisy and double-standards. Hitler explains this quite well in Mein Kampf when he discusses atrocities, real and imagined, and the Allied concept of War Guilt from the last World War. These are not things that lead to peace.


:)


“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:48 pm

Scott, finally lets it all hang out. WOW!

Scott wrote: "Then to keep German internal rivalries focused outside the Reich, Bismarck high-handedly annexed Alsace-Lorraine so that Germans would be focused outward, wary of French hatred." Since Scott has never even been to Alsace-Lorraine, he simply does not know that most of the people there speak German as they have since Roman times. Why do you suppose they do that, Scott? Did you ever hear of "Burgundy" and the "Burgundians" who famously captured Joan of Arc? "Strasbourg" and "Mulhouse" and many other city names in the region are not even of French origin. Why is that, Scott?

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:30 pm

As to Scott's opening statement, I think he is totally wrong there also: if Germany had been able to field thousand-bomber fleets around-the-clock they absolutely would have. They tried. They didn't because they could not.

I don't think they, the Germans, even tried to do that but if they had tried--to the exclusion of almost everything else---they certainly could have and with excellent four-engine bombers as well. But Hitler was NOT the genocidal maniac that Churchill was--or Roosevelt; Hitler even admired the English. Instead, Germany focused on a greater enemy and that was Stalin's Soviet Union. Can anyone seriously believe that if Germany had NOT expended vast resources on the war with Stalin that it could NOT have bombed London and Britain to microdust?

Throughout the summer of 1940 and well into August, the Luftwaffe was crushing the RAF--but after the five British bombings of Berlin, the luftwaffe shifted to bombing London on September 7, 1940 In the process, that gave the RAF a break they desperately needed.

Even against the Soviets, when did the Germans bomb Leningrad or Moscow the way the Anglos bombed Germany? Nearly all of the public buildings in those cities including the Hermitage and the Kremlin are still standing today.

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Re: DRESDEN: 73 years ago to this day

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:54 pm

Before Americans do any more strutting and advice-giving around the world, with, or without, lots of bombs, money, etc.,--they should be forced to learn their own ugly. shameful and disgusting history. They should thank God there is no God.

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