The “Holocaust Narrative”

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Jeffk1970
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The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by Jeffk1970 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:02 pm

Been-there and rollo both asked me in the past to define the “Holocaust narrative.” Because I’m such a good-natured, amiable kind of fellow I decided to answer them. This will give me a convenient post to link to when I get asked about this again.

So, what was the “Holocaust?”

Depending on how you define it this can cover the whole range of Nazi atrocities, from the T-4/14f13 Program, the deliberate neglect and brutality that led to the deaths of some 2 million Red Army POWs from the Summer of 1941 to the Spring of 1942, the on-again, off-again persecution/destruction of the Roma/Sinti, Operation Tannenberg and the persecution/destruction of Europe’s Jews. In this instance I will focus solely on the events from 1939-1945 as it pertains to the destruction of Europe’s Jews.

1) Isolation:
The Germans forced Polish Jews into Ghettos while dispossessing Austrian and German Jews of regular housing and forcing them to live in tighter and tighter quarters. In other occupied countries like France and Belgium the process begins of stripping Jews of citizenship rights. Later in places like the Netherlands this lead to Jews being placed into Ghettos and camps.

2) Mass Shootings:
While some mass killings of Jews had occurred in Poland, mass shootings occurred on a massive scale only after the invasion of the USSR. The Einsatzgruppen, Order Police, SS Cavalry and their proxies shot hundreds of thousands of Jewish men starting in the Summer of 1941, leading to the mass shootings of Jewish women and children later that Summer. These mass shootings continued throughout the war, with the majority starting the Summer of 1941, continuing through 1942 and 1943.

3) Mass Gassing Operations:
The mass shootings proved to be hard on the killers, plus the killings were too public. As a consequence the Germans turned to using both mobile and stationary gas chambers in camps like Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau, with smaller gassing operations in other camps. The gas vans used at Chelmno were also used in other places.

4) Attempted Cleanup
After 1942 the Germans attempted to dispose of both camps and bodies with varying success.

So, this is just intended as a very general overview. I’ve left a lot out as this was not intended to provide evidence or go over all the details. Enjoy.

NSDAP
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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by NSDAP » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:05 pm

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:02 pm
So, this is just intended as a very general overview. I’ve left a lot out as this was not intended to provide evidence or go over all the details. Enjoy.
Jeff our atrocities (and there were) was no more or less than the allies at the time. Please look at my post on allied war crimes.

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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by Jeffk1970 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:10 pm

NSDAP wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:05 pm
Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:02 pm
So, this is just intended as a very general overview. I’ve left a lot out as this was not intended to provide evidence or go over all the details. Enjoy.
Jeff our atrocities (and there were) was no more or less than the allies at the time. Please look at my post on allied war crimes.
I’m well aware of Allied War Crimes, NSDAP. I’m not going to downplay them or ignore them. But, seriously, there is no equivalent of a Chelmno, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau, etc. on the Allied side. There were no mass shootings of civilians or reprisals of any equivalent on the Allied side.

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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by NSDAP » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:18 pm

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:10 pm
NSDAP wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:05 pm
Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:02 pm
So, this is just intended as a very general overview. I’ve left a lot out as this was not intended to provide evidence or go over all the details. Enjoy.
Jeff our atrocities (and there were) was no more or less than the allies at the time. Please look at my post on allied war crimes.
I’m well aware of Allied War Crimes, NSDAP. I’m not going to downplay them or ignore them. But, seriously, there is no equivalent of a Chelmno, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau, etc. on the Allied side. There were no mass shootings of civilians or reprisals of any equivalent on the Allied side.
True but the allied war crimes were done by your officers, ours were done by rogue criminals. There are still mass reprisals on your part, aka the suppression of free speech to actually discuss that issue. I am a true National Socialist. We did not authorize those crimes, not trying to cover up as our people paid the full price: we manned up and took responsibility: our officers took the shame and were hanged in our name. Could your officers do the same? We expect all our Officers to follow the same values and integrity. By us you are absolved.
Rudolf Höss SS-Obersturmbannführer
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Nessie
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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by Nessie » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:26 am

NSDAP wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:18 pm
Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:10 pm
.....
I’m well aware of Allied War Crimes, NSDAP. I’m not going to downplay them or ignore them. But, seriously, there is no equivalent of a Chelmno, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau, etc. on the Allied side. There were no mass shootings of civilians or reprisals of any equivalent on the Allied side.
True but the allied war crimes were done by your officers, ours were done by rogue criminals.
Not true, there were Allied war crimes by rogue soldiers, such as rapes, that were punished by the officers.
There are still mass reprisals on your part, aka the suppression of free speech to actually discuss that issue.
That is not an equivalent.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

rollo the ganger
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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by rollo the ganger » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:38 am

Hmmm...? Jeff delivers and gives us his "Magnus Opus" essay on the meaning of the Holocaust, or at least what the narrative is. Original I'm sure.

I hope it's open to inquiry and, as I said before, I hope Jeff can take constructive criticism without getting hostile.

There are some questions I would have for Jeff... Is this YOUR definition, Jeff, or a compilation from others? Or both? And would other "believers" agree with your definition here?

I was of the understanding that the "Holocaust", its victims and victimization was entirely a Jewish affair. Any one else who fell victim was simply incidental to the war and/or Nazi wrath. However, first and foremost, Jeff begins with the Soviet prisoners of war and the gypsies. Thus setting the tone for the essay.

Are you now including Soviet POW's and Gypsies as part of the Holocaust? Just how far does this inclusion go? Clarification please!!!

I'll stop here for now and if Jeff would be so kind maybe he can address my concerns above. Thank you Jeff.

Jeffk1970
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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by Jeffk1970 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:02 am

NSDAP wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:18 pm
True but the allied war crimes were done by your officers, ours were done by rogue criminals.
NSDAP, you still haven’t shown me why you believe that. What “rogue criminals?”

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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by Jeffk1970 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:04 am

rollo the ganger wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:38 am
Hmmm...? Jeff delivers and gives us his "Magnus Opus" essay on the meaning of the Holocaust, or at least what the narrative is. Original I'm sure.

I hope it's open to inquiry and, as I said before, I hope Jeff can take constructive criticism without getting hostile.
Why, of course, rollo.

There are some questions I would have for Jeff... Is this YOUR definition, Jeff, or a compilation from others? Or both?
My summary, distilled through reading on the subject.
And would other "believers" agree with your definition here?
I have no idea. Probably others would add in the persecution of German Jews from 1933 and Austrian Jews from 1938. This is my opinion but I don’t think that really fits, primarily due to the goal of the Nazis was to make things so unpleasant that these Jews would leave. The option to emigrate became severely curtailed after the start of the war in 1939 and then shut off completely in 1941.
I was of the understanding that the "Holocaust", its victims and victimization was entirely a Jewish affair. Any one else who fell victim was simply incidental to the war and/or Nazi wrath. However, first and foremost, Jeff begins with the Soviet prisoners of war and the gypsies. Thus setting the tone for the essay.

Are you now including Soviet POW's and Gypsies as part of the Holocaust? Just how far does this inclusion go? Clarification please!!!
You’ll note, rollo, that I did mention the other groups but I focused on Jews. I didn’t go into detail on the others.

Some definitions do include these groups. The main difference between these other groups and the Jews was that at different points the Germans relented and stopped the killing. Or, in the case of T-4 victims, officially stopped and went to greater lengths to conceal the action. Only Jews continued to be murdered in large numbers.
I'll stop here for now and if Jeff would be so kind maybe he can address my concerns above. Thank you Jeff.
I’m going to be busy today, rollo, I had to go into work. But, you can give me more information on your narrative that the Holocaust was a “hoax.”

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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by been-there » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:02 pm

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:02 pm
Been-there and rollo both asked me in the past to define the “Holocaust narrative.” Because I’m such a good-natured, amiable kind of fellow I decided to answer them. This will give me a convenient post to link to when I get asked about this again.

So, what was the “Holocaust?”

Depending on how you define it this can cover the whole range of Nazi atrocities, from the T-4/14f13 Program, the deliberate neglect and brutality that led to the deaths of some 2 million Red Army POWs from the Summer of 1941 to the Spring of 1942, the on-again, off-again persecution/destruction of the Roma/Sinti, Operation Tannenberg and the persecution/destruction of Europe’s Jews. In this instance I will focus solely on the events from 1939-1945 as it pertains to the destruction of Europe’s Jews.

1) Isolation:
The Germans forced Polish Jews into Ghettos while dispossessing Austrian and German Jews of regular housing and forcing them to live in tighter and tighter quarters. In other occupied countries like France and Belgium the process begins of stripping Jews of citizenship rights. Later in places like the Netherlands this lead to Jews being placed into Ghettos and camps.

2) Mass Shootings:
While some mass killings of Jews had occurred in Poland, mass shootings occurred on a massive scale only after the invasion of the USSR. The Einsatzgruppen, Order Police, SS Cavalry and their proxies shot hundreds of thousands of Jewish men starting in the Summer of 1941, leading to the mass shootings of Jewish women and children later that Summer. These mass shootings continued throughout the war, with the majority starting the Summer of 1941, continuing through 1942 and 1943.

3) Mass Gassing Operations:
The mass shootings proved to be hard on the killers, plus the killings were too public. As a consequence the Germans turned to using both mobile and stationary gas chambers in camps like Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau, with smaller gassing operations in other camps. The gas vans used at Chelmno were also used in other places.

4) Attempted Cleanup
After 1942 the Germans attempted to dispose of both camps and bodies with varying success.

So, this is just intended as a very general overview. I’ve left a lot out as this was not intended to provide evidence or go over all the details. Enjoy.
Q1. If we take any of these four points away is it still 'THE Holocaust'?

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Re: The “Holocaust Narrative”

Post by rollo the ganger » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:40 pm

Jeff wrote:You’ll note, rollo, that I did mention the other groups but I focused on Jews. I didn’t go into detail on the others.
Your inclusion of the Soviet POW's and the Gypsies is still a bit extraneous and confusing. You must have had something in mind to include them. You also didn't answer whether their treatment, fate, etc., was considered part of the Holocaust or just how inclusive of other groups the Holocaust encompasses. At least not in your definition. Would you please elaborate on this more.

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