The big lie — people coming out of it.

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been-there
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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by been-there »

.
Here published recently in UK main-stream-media is a journalist starting to expose some of the widely excepted lies and myths of WW2.

It is an article by Peter Hitchins (Christophers' brother).
My father, Commander Eric Hitchens, who served in the Royal Navy for 30 years, was never wholly sure who had won. He neither felt he was living in a victorious country nor felt it had rewarded him justly. I remember well how, sometimes, late in the evening, he would look thoughtfully into the middle distance and say: ‘Ah, well, we won the war… or did we?’

...One day, this dangerous fable of the glorious anti-fascist war against evil may destroy us...

The myths go right back to the start of the war. The uncomfortable truth is that from the very beginning, it was Britain which sought a conflict with Germany, not Germany with Britain. Hitler’s real targets lay elsewhere, in Ukraine and Russia, and he was much less interested in us than we like to think.

Nor did we go to war, as many like to believe, to save or even help the endangered Jews of Europe. The veteran Labour MP Frank Field’s claim in his recent resignation letter that ‘Britain fought the Second World War to banish these [anti-Semitic] views from our politics’ is the most recent example of this common but mistaken belief. Britain simply did not declare war in 1939 to save Europe’s Jews – indeed, our government was indifferent to their plight and blocked one of their main escape routes, to what was then British-ruled Palestine. We also did nothing to help Poland, for whose sake we supposedly declared war.

Forget, too, the ‘special relationship’ with the US: America was a jealous and resentful rival to whom we ceded our global status and naval supremacy. And Washington’s grudging backing came at a huge price – we were made to hand over the life savings of the Empire to stave off bankruptcy and surrender.

Even the threat of a German invasion was never a reality, more a convenient idea which suited the propaganda purposes of Hitler and Churchill. What began as a phoney war led in the end to a phoney victory, in which the real winners were Washington and Moscow, not us – and an unsatisfactory, uncomfortable and unhappy peace.

But the sad truth is that this country deliberately sought a war in the vain hope of preserving a Great Power status our rulers knew in their hearts it had already lost.
Read the whole article here
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Been There gets all excited over an article about 'myths' of World War 2.

The cogs in his head can be heard whirring, his mouth starts salivating and his heart starts beating faster.."If these myths can be busted, then surely the gas chamber myth is next on the list"... he tells himself .

Yeah Been There, cos that's obviously gonna be the outcome here, isn't it ? :roll: :roll:

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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by Huntinger »

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:42 pm
Been There gets all excited over an article about 'myths' of World War 2.

The cogs in his head can be heard whirring, his mouth starts salivating and his heart starts beating faster.."If these myths can be busted, then surely the gas chamber myth is next on the list"... he tells himself .

Yeah Been There, cos that's obviously gonna be the outcome here, isn't it ? :roll: :roll:
This is pure trolling and adds nothing to any discourse. Lupus is clearly trying to bait someone for a response.


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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by blake121666 »

been-there wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:45 am
.
Here published recently in UK main-stream-media is a journalist starting to expose some of the widely excepted lies and myths of WW2.

It is an article by Peter Hitchins (Christophers' brother).
My father, Commander Eric Hitchens, who served in the Royal Navy for 30 years, was never wholly sure who had won. He neither felt he was living in a victorious country nor felt it had rewarded him justly. I remember well how, sometimes, late in the evening, he would look thoughtfully into the middle distance and say: ‘Ah, well, we won the war… or did we?’

...One day, this dangerous fable of the glorious anti-fascist war against evil may destroy us...

The myths go right back to the start of the war. The uncomfortable truth is that from the very beginning, it was Britain which sought a conflict with Germany, not Germany with Britain. Hitler’s real targets lay elsewhere, in Ukraine and Russia, and he was much less interested in us than we like to think.

Nor did we go to war, as many like to believe, to save or even help the endangered Jews of Europe. The veteran Labour MP Frank Field’s claim in his recent resignation letter that ‘Britain fought the Second World War to banish these [anti-Semitic] views from our politics’ is the most recent example of this common but mistaken belief. Britain simply did not declare war in 1939 to save Europe’s Jews – indeed, our government was indifferent to their plight and blocked one of their main escape routes, to what was then British-ruled Palestine. We also did nothing to help Poland, for whose sake we supposedly declared war.

Forget, too, the ‘special relationship’ with the US: America was a jealous and resentful rival to whom we ceded our global status and naval supremacy. And Washington’s grudging backing came at a huge price – we were made to hand over the life savings of the Empire to stave off bankruptcy and surrender.

Even the threat of a German invasion was never a reality, more a convenient idea which suited the propaganda purposes of Hitler and Churchill. What began as a phoney war led in the end to a phoney victory, in which the real winners were Washington and Moscow, not us – and an unsatisfactory, uncomfortable and unhappy peace.

But the sad truth is that this country deliberately sought a war in the vain hope of preserving a Great Power status our rulers knew in their hearts it had already lost.
Read the whole article here
That was a very downcast and depression-fueled argument in that piece. But it supplied an interesting tidbit I wasn't aware of:
Peter Hitchens wrote:The ‘Lend-Lease’ system, which provided limited American material aid to Britain, was far from the act of selfless generosity Churchill proclaimed it to be. Even the Americans’ Bill had a gloating, anti-British tinge, given the number H.R. 1776 in reference to the year of the US Declaration of Independence.

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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by been-there »

.
Mel Gibson's father Hutton Gibson died in May of this year aged 101.

In 2004 Hutton had courageously and unashamedly pointed out some of the ludicrous improbability of much of the 'holocaust' mythology.
It appears that he didn't really understand the technical impossibility of it.
And he did appear to be prone to racist, anti-semitic generalisations.
But credit is still due to him for bravely exposing himself by publically questioning some of the ridiculous but enforced and compulsory beliefs that constitute the 'H' narrative.

Partial Transcript Of The Steve Feuerstein Radio Interview With Hutton Gibson
___________________________________

I. The Holocaust

Steve Feuerstein
What was this event called the Holocaust?

Hutton Gibson
In the first place the Holocaust is a terrible misnomer. First of all a Holocaust is a burnt offering to G-d. Now these people were not offering themselves up to G-d. If these people were being killed they were being taken there screaming howling and yelling for they were being persecuted and murdered. That is not a Holocaust.

Secondly there were not that many Jews under Hitler's power under his sway. They claimed that there were 6.2 million in Poland before the war and after the war there were 200,000 therefore he (Hitler) must have killed six million of them. They simply got up and left! They were all over the Bronx and Brooklyn and Sydney and Los Angeles.

Everybody was out to get Hitler… but you know he was not that efficient. I've known a lot of Germans. The society I went to school to were Germans and they were thorough, they were good teachers. They were efficient and they know how to do things. If they had set out to kill six million Jews they would have done it. But all we hear about is Holocaust survivors. "Oh, we know it happened, cause over there is a survivor. Oh, my mother and father were survivors," they say.

This is absolutely ridiculous. And (the Holocaust) it's all — maybe not all fiction — but most of it is. For instance the gas chambers and crematoria at Auschwitz would not do the job. Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it?...

Steve Feuerstein
Why Do the Jews construct Holocaust Museums?

Hutton Gibson
There are too many survivors. It's just a gimmick to collect money. They have to go where there is money. There is no way they would come to West Virginia. They have to have some place to go that has money. They didn't work in the mines you can bet your boots… no they don't work anywhere where they can get out of it. They're great pencil pushers. They are the ‘superior’ people and therefore they are entitled to the top jobs supervisory stuff and so on because they hire each other. They have so much influence in the banks for instance. They all look out for one another you got to give them that. They are at the same time willing to sacrifice a few of theirs if it helps…


V. Reparations

Steve Feuerstein
And the demand for reparations?

Hutton Gibson
Why all the reparations? It's an irresistible chance to make money. All those Holocaust museums put up at our expense with our tax payer dollars.

...These people are vengeance bound. They will chase down people like Demjanjuk they almost got him killed and eventually it was proved innocent of all charges. Yeah, Ivan the Terrible, they said.


http://web.archive.org/web/201002120951 ... 3_npd.html
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by been-there »

.
The very fact that legislation against ANY skeptical research into this compulsory, protected, ahistorical narrative is falsely and incorrectly referred to in prosecution trials as 'denial', demonstrates the hypocrisy of the current situation.

Questioning ANY aspect of a historical narrative is OBVIOUSLY not the same as denying all of the narrative's aspects. This is so basic, that it shouldn't need to be pointed out. Even genuine denial of certain aspects of ANY narrative is OBVIOUSLY not the same as denial of all of it.
Nor can informed skepticism sanely be equated in every instance as 'hatred' of anyone.
Obviously!

That these obvious points are not recognised — just the opposite in fact — demonstrate the 'Emperor's new clothes' aspect of this mass psychosis.
This shouldn't really need to be discussed. And with ANY OTHER historical narrative, it wouldn't be. So this again demonstrates the quite unique nature of this particular historiography. It's literally collective crazy behaviour.

But, as argued elsewhere, it's only a question of time before this will have to be acknowledged and proper investigation and intelligent (sane) questioning of the enforced dogma will be permitted.

Here below is an admission that public pronouncement of intelligent skepticism of the compulsory H belief-system is increasing.
More and more people are daring to voice their concerns, doubts and skepticism.
They are therefore being persecuted and made examples of to perpetuate the draconian thought-control tactics.
But it is a losing battle. Truth can not be suppressed indefinitely. Intelligent questioning and research will eventually win over unintelligent suppression and the current ironically 'hateful' thought-control.

I have replaced the dreaded 'denial' word with more appropriate words, such as 'skepticism'.

Present-day Holocaust Denial [skepticism and critical research]

It behooves us to review the development of Holocaust denial [historical revision] since the early 2000s; examine how relevant legislation has been applied; evaluate how states and the intergovernmental agencies are combating denial [critical research]; and suggest some lessons that might be learned for the future.

All European states now accept that Holocaust denial [skepticism] is designed to incite hatred against Jews [ :roll: ] and that the failure to learn the appropriate lessons endangers social cohesion and democracy, and also increases the risk that another genocide will be perpetrated. [ :lol: :lol: ]

The 2007 UN General Assembly (UNGA) resolution on Holocaust denial [skepticism] (61/255) “condemns without any reservation” any manifestations of denial [skepticism] and “urges all Member States unreservedly to reject any denial [skepticism] of the Holocaust as a historical event, either in full or in part, or any activities to this end.” It is noteworthy that the resolution was passed by consensus, with Iran dissenting.

The 2019 report on antisemitism for the UNGA by the Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief notes the rise in Holocaust denial [skepticism], including by those who express anger toward Israel; the increasing use of social media to promote denial [skepticism]; that denial [skepticism] creates fertile ground for nationalist or neo-Nazi demonstrations; and that indifference to such manifestations of hatred can lead to the destruction of societies.

The Special Rapporteur warned, however, that criminal or other punitive measures against Holocaust denial [skepticism] should only be used as a last resort when less restrictive measures have failed. Most states have historically relied on punitive action as their initial response, and only in recent years have they, alongside international bodies, invested in large-scale and more effective education.

Recent Convictions for Holocaust Denial [skepticism and critical research] in European Courts

The following cases indicate that extremists of various kinds promote Holocaust denial [skepticism] by different means. In 2013, György Nagy, a then-unemployed computer technician, was convicted under recently enacted Holocaust denial [skepticism] legislation for holding a banner at a 2011 Budapest political rally that read “The Shoah did not happen.” He was ordered to visit the Hungarian Holocaust Memorial Center on three occasions in lieu of serving an eighteen-month jail sentence.

In 2017, a German court in Verden (Aller) convicted the elderly Ursula Haverbeck-Wetzel of denying [questioning] the mass murder of Jews and stating that there were no gas chambers in Auschwitz. A longtime Nazi sympathizer, she had been involved in the paramilitary training of neo-Nazis and had been previously convicted for denial offenses. In 2018, she began a two-year prison sentence following convictions for several denial [skepticism] offenses.

Also in 2017, an unnamed Austrian woman was found guilty of publishing a post on Facebook in violation of an Austrian law that criminalises Holocaust denial [skepticism] and the glorification of Nazism; she was given a suspended sentence and fined. She had accused a German soccer team of spreading lies after they expressed regret for Nazi crimes during a visit to Auschwitz. In the same year, former Belgian parliamentarian Laurent Louis was convicted of denial [skepticism] for a second time, after an earlier 2015 conviction, and ordered to visit the site of a Nazi concentration camp every year for the following five years and write about his experiences. Shortly after his conviction he wrote that every year he would repent in a death camp and that “the sentence would be very educational and very powerful on a human level.”

In 2019, Karl Münter, a former SS officer was found guilty of disputing the Holocaust in a German TV interview and of blaming the victims for their own deaths. However, he died of natural causes before serving what would have been a prison sentence. Shortly after the war, he was convicted in absentia of war crimes and sentenced to death but was pardoned in 1955 as part of the Franco–German reconciliation efforts.

In February 2019, Alison Chabloz, a British far-right activist and self-described “Holocaust revisionist,” lost her appeal against a June 2018 conviction for promoting denial [skepticism] on YouTube. She had uploaded videos of herself singing three antisemitic [satirical] songs. In one of them she sang “Now Auschwitz, holy temple, is a theme park for fools, the gassing zone a proven hoax, indoctrination rules.” Following her appeal, she served twenty weeks in jail and was banned from posting on all social media for twelve months.

In April 2019, Alain Soral, a prominent French anti-establishment activist who has promoted both far-right and far-left ideologies, was sentenced to one year’s imprisonment for publishing a cartoon that implied[?] that the Holocaust did not take place. A year before, he had been sentenced to three months in prison by the Paris Criminal Court for questioning the occurrence of crimes against humanity, and in 2016 he had been sentenced to six months for making the antisemitic “Quenelle” gesture outside the Colmar High Court. However, Soral was released from prison in January 2020 after a successful appeal against the 2016 conviction.

The European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) interprets the European Convention on Human Rights, the primary human rights instrument for Council of Europe member states, including members of the European Union. All states are required to execute the Court’s judgments, and it has issued important judgments against Holocaust deniers [skeptics]. It has based its judgments variously on the abuse of rights (under Article 17), when the comments in question amounted to hate speech and negated the fundamental values of the Convention, and the abuse of freedom of expression, when hate speech was seen as a risk to the fundamental values of the Convention (under Article 10).

In the chapter “Negation of the Holocaust” in its Guide on Article 17, the Court notes:
Negation of the Holocaust has invariably been presumed by the Court and the Commission to incite to hatred or intolerance. In particular, the justification for making its denial a criminal offence lies not so much in that it is a clearly established historical fact but in that, in view of the historical context in the States concerned, its denial [skepticism], even if dressed up as impartial historical research, must be seen as connoting an antidemocratic ideology and antisemitism…
The ECtHR therefore views Holocaust denial [skepticism] as a subversion of the fight against racism and antisemitism, a threat to public order, and an attempt to negate the historical record. It posits that prosecuting it is a necessary defence of democracy.
In the most recent case, Pastörs v. Germany, in October 2019, the Court rejected the applicant’s complaint under Article 10 that the German courts should not have convicted him for denying [questioning] the Holocaust during a speech in the Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania regional parliament. On January 28, 2010, the day after Holocaust Remembrance Day, Udo Pastörs, then a member of the regional parliament, made a speech in which he stated that “the so-called Holocaust is being used for political and commercial purposes.” He also referred to a “barrage of criticism and propagandistic lies” and “Auschwitz projections.”

Pastörs was convicted in August 2012 in a separate case in which he was charged with of violating the memory of the dead and of the intentional defamation of the Jewish people. He appealed the judgment in March 2013, but the court stated that with respect to Holocaust denial [skepticism], he could not rely on his right to free speech.
The parliament had already revoked his parliamentary immunity in 2012. In his appeal to the German Court of Appeals, Pastörs also challenged one of the sitting judges, claiming that he could not be impartial as he was married to the judge who had convicted him in the first instance. Pastörs’ final appeal was rejected by the German Federal Constitutional Court in 2014, after which he unsuccessfully appealed to the Strasbourg Court. In its judgment, the ECtHR noted that Pastörs had intentionally stated half-truths in order to defame the Jews and the persecution they had suffered. The interference with his rights also had to be examined in the context of the distinct moral responsibility of states that had perpetrated or witnessed Nazi horrors to distance themselves from the atrocities. It also rejected Pastörs’ argument about the judge’s impartiality when deciding on the same case at a different level of jurisdiction.

In the same year, the ECtHR upheld another judgment, referencing Article 17. Richard Williamson, an English-born former bishop and member of the traditionalist Society of Saint Pius X, had denied [applied critical analysis to] the Holocaust in a Swedish TV interview broadcast in Germany, knowing that his statements were subject to criminal liability there despite residing elsewhere at the time. He had never insisted that his interview not be broadcast in Germany and had not clarified with the interviewer or TV station how this interview would be transmitted. The European Court upheld the judgment of the Regensburg regional court in Bavaria that had convicted Williamson of Holocaust denial [skepticism].

In 2015, the ECtHR upheld the 2008 conviction of French activist Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala for public insults against Jews. He had invited the late French Holocaust denier [skeptic] Robert Faurisson onto the stage at the end of his show at the Zénith Arena in Paris to receive a prize, which took the form of a three-branched candlestick with an apple on each branch. This was presented to Faurisson by an actor dressed in striped pajamas with a stitched-on Star of David badge bearing the word “Juif” [Jew]. The Court found that M’Bala M’Bala was not entitled to the protection of Article 10 of the Convention, as his performance could not be considered entertainment but actually resembled a political meeting convened to demonstrate hatred of Jews and to promote denial [skepticism].

The aforementioned Guide on Article 17 lists other cases in which the Court relied on Article 17 or used it as an aid in interpretation, such as Honsik v. Austria (1995); Marais v. France (1996); and Garaudy v. France (2003).

Holocaust denial [skepticism] today

The constraints of space permit us to enumerate only a few examples of the way in which Holocaust denial [skepticism] has been promoted on the world stage. Hitherto the most active Holocaust denier [skeptic] in recent years, David Irving has been forced to curtail his activities due to his age, lack of funds, and travel restrictions. His attempts to address university audiences in the UK have invariably been met by protests and the subsequent retraction of the invitations. In September 2019, the Polish Foreign Ministry stated that he would be denied permission to enter Poland to conduct a planned guided visit for his supporters to Treblinka, Sobibór, Bełżec, and Majdanek.
He is also banned from traveling to Austria and Germany.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 20.1750858
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by Turnagain »

The constraints of space permit us to enumerate only a few examples of the way in which Holocaust denial [skepticism] has been promoted on the world stage. Hitherto the most active Holocaust denier [skeptic] in recent years, David Irving has been forced to curtail his activities due to his age, lack of funds, and travel restrictions. His attempts to address university audiences in the UK have invariably been met by protests and the subsequent retraction of the invitations. In September 2019, the Polish Foreign Ministry stated that he would be denied permission to enter Poland to conduct a planned guided visit for his supporters to Treblinka, Sobibór, Bełżec, and Majdanek.
He is also banned from traveling to Austria and Germany.
LOL! It looks as though the Jews have ol' Irving by the short and curlies. He should have known better than to sue a Jew in a Jew court.

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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by been-there »

more young people deny Holocaust, experts warn

27th JANUARY 2019

Holocaust denial [skepticism] is becoming more prevalent among the younger generation, experts say.

Ahead of Holocaust Memorial Day, Joe Mulhall, a researcher at anti-racism organisation Hope Not Hate, warned that Holocaust deniers [skeptics] are now more likely to be students than in previous years.

Mr Mulhall, who is a trustee of charity Holocaust Memorial Day Trust, said: “There was a time when Holocaust denial [skepticism] in the UK was an increasingly ageing pursuit. It was elderly men in duffel coats. With the internet, we have started to see a younger, newer generation of Holocaust denial [skepticism] emerging, which ties into things like the alt-right, and that is really really concerning.”

After monitoring far-right forums, including neo-Nazi forums, the researchers have seen a growth of younger people denying [questioning] the Holocaust in a “jokey style” through social media and online forums.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/educ ... 47181.html
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: The big lie — people coming out of it.

Post by been-there »

Rise in far-Right visits to former Nazi concentration camps

23 JANUARY 2020

Former Nazi concentration camps in Germany are experiencing a disturbing rise in visits by ...Holocaust deniers [realists], the head of the memorials at two of the most notorious camps has warned.

“There are increasing entries in our visitor books that describe National Socialism and the concentration camps as useful and good for Germany,” Prof Volkhard Knigge, head of the memorial foundation for Buchenwald and Mittelbau-Dora concentration camps told Neue Westfälische newspaper.

Prof Knigge said the camps had also experienced “targeted, prepared disruptions to guided tours” by Holocaust deniers [truthers]...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ion-camps/
Just look at these two British, right-wing, mass-media news stories! (From the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail)
Prof Volkhard Knigge, the Buchenwald camp museum director, was complaining this January that visitors to his museum were questioning the tour leaders and doubting the stories they are feeding visitors. Shock! Horror! How dare they ask searching, well-informed questions and express doubts???
He attempts to discredit these people with ad hominem perjoratives, and he ridiculously claims they "smuggled themselves" on to the museum tours.
Asking critical questions concerning the "facts" and "figures" is considered disruptive??! :o :?
Openly joining a tour which you consider to be perpetuating misinformation is now considered "smuggling yourself"???! :lol:
It's psychotic nonsense.
This shows 'holocaust' is not history but a religion that must be believed and treated reverently.
Former Nazi concentration camps see surge in visits by Holocaust deniers who disrupt tours

23rd January 2020

• Former concentration camps in Germany are seeing a rise in neo-Nazis [?] visitors
• Holocaust deniers are flocking to Buchenwald camp in Germany to disrupt tours
• Far-right smuggle themselves into tours in order to question facts and figures :lol: :lol: :roll:
• Disruptions are often filmed as a way for extremists to profile themselves online


Former Nazi concentration camps in Germany are seeing a rise in visits by neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers who are disrupting tours, it was claimed.

Unwanted visits from far-right visitors are becoming an increasing problem for the memorial centre at the former World War II concentration camp at Buchenwald in eastern Germany, museum director Volkhard Knigge said today.

Right-wing extremists were taking part in 'targeted and pre-planned disruptions of tours' of the former camp, Knigge told the Neue Westfaelische newspaper. The 65-year-old claimed that neo-Nazis smuggled themselves into tour groups in order to question facts and figures or deny the Holocaust outright.

The disruptions were often filmed as a way for extremists to profile themselves within the neo-Nazi scene, he added.

The Holocaust memorial centre has since tightened rules for visitors and given staff training on how to handle disruptions from extremists. He said that staff at the memorial centre had now been trained to deal with the disruptions, and that rules for visitors had been tightened.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... tours.html
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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