Ovens

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).

Moderators: Budu Svanidze, Joe Future

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 6781
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:59 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by been-there » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:14 am

Werd wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:38 pm
Just to rub it in his face that I have sanction from the moderators to call him that and not get in trouble because they see it too.
Whatever you call him, the fact remains that you spend almost all your time here at RODOH responding to the deliberately disruptive trolling of a single person. The names you call him isn't my question to you. Here is the question again:
If you believe he is a troll, and if you know that a troll wants any reaction no matter what it is — but preferably the most off-topic and abusive the better — then why are you spending SO MUCH of your time here 'feeding' that troll?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

Werd
Posts: 5694
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:38 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:34 pm

I am not denying four bodies would take longer than one.
Yes you are.
Nessie has to continue lying with this new bait and switch. Flashback:
9.2.2 talks about experiences from the Westerbork crematoria. In the Westerbork crematorium, two corpses were never done simultaneously. Except for an adult and a small child. "During occasional cremations of one small child together with one adult corpse it had been observed that the small corpses had a significant effect on the cremation process, extending its average duration by 14% (50 minutes to 57 minutes) beyond the average cremation time of single adult corpses." (p. 316)
One adult body took longer than 30 minutes. That is PROOF POSITIVE you can't do 4 bodies in less time in one muffle of a 1930's coke fired oven. It already was established what was possible. Saying we need to find another experiment where 4 bodies were done, in order to know for sure, is just another lie.
Watch Nessie beat a dead horse by ignoring what was previously put in front of him.
The Westerbork cremation does not say to what extent the bodies were cremated. Is it so they drop through the grate, or to ash for an urn?
Nessie's other bait and switch was already refuted earlier here. He is simply dodging now.
In his Polish testimony, Tauber confirms that 4-5 corpses were cremated at one time in a muffle as a rule (p.133) but he explains (p.135)

In continuous operation the crematorium cremated two loads per hour. According to regulations, we had to load new corpses into the muffles every half hour.

Oberkapo August explained to us that, on the basis of the calculations and the design of the crematorium, 5-7 minutes had been scheduled for the cremation of one corpse in one muffle.

At first he did not allow us to load more than three corpses. With such a number we had to work without stopping, because after having loaded the last muffle, the [load in the] first had already burned. to get a break in our work, we loaded 4-5 corpses into each muffle. The cremation of such a load took far longer, hence after loading the last muffle we had a few minutes of rest while the first muffle burned its load
.
Nessie is trying to squirm by bringing in a red herring to keep the debate alive. Whether Nessie thinks Tauber meant cremation until a few boney remains could fall through the grates or TOTAL cremation into ash would happen is irrelevant because cremation experiments cited by mattogno showed that it took longer than 30 minutes to destroy one body in one coke fired oven muffle enough for it to even fall through the grate.
In his subsequent post, Nessie quoted Tauber, but left out MY comments. Of course he would. They're perfect and he had nothing. If the Westerbork cremations can't even have the ability to finish ONE SINGLE corpse off to the point of some ash and chunky remains that would fall through a grate in 30 minutes, THEN OF COURSE you're not going to get 4 BODIES to even get to THAT POINT of falling through the grate in 30 minutes. It took 50 minutes to properly burn a corpse in Westerbork. 20 whole more minutes. This is fact and Nessie pretends it doesn't exist by injecting false skepticism into the debate by focusing in on something irrelevant that doesn't end up panning out for him anyway. :lol:
Your claim is that it cannot happen
Because of what the evidence has shown that COULD happen. With reference to past cremation experiments with coke fired ovens, we saw that one corpse took longer than what Tauber claimed for 4. By seeing what CAN happen, we are able to determine what CAN NOT happen. Nessie also loves to ignore basic logic. This is also what he dodges. As I explained here about propositions...
The negative formulation comes after the TOTAL FAILURE of the positive affirmation. If you say person X did Y at time Z and place A but the video camera evidence shows nothing happened there at that time and place then OBVIOUSLY at this point, the negative affirmation comes in. The negative comes in, once and ONLY ONCE the positive has certainly failed. Because there is no other choice.
By denying the failure of the positive affirmation that 4 corpses could be done away with in one muffle in 30 minutes to the point where AT A MINIMUM their remains would fall through the grate to make room for 4 more (which is what Tauber claimed), Nessie can keep the debate alive and pretend the negative formulation by myself has been brought in prematurely. But Nessie AGAIN has to turn logic and science on its head claiming we still need to do cremation experiments and this time with 4 corpses. That's a lie. The ones already done showing what CAN be done in 30 minutes, demonstrate what also CAN NOT be done in 30 minutes. If the goal of the sonderkommando is to destroy as many bodies as quickly as possible, then THEY AREN'T GOING TO WAIT FOR ONLY ASH TO REMAIN AND NO BONE FRAGMENTS THAT COULD OTHERWISE FALL THROUGH THE GRATE WITH THE WEIGHT OF 4 NEW CORPSES. That would be...wait for it...ILLOGICAL! Why? Because that would get in the way of accomplishing their ALREADY ESTABLISHED goal of disposing of bodies as quickly as possible. This is basic symbolic logic. It's called a conditional statement. It's of course lost on our resident troll, Nessie. Nessie just pulls shit out of his ass and moves the goal posts and denies logic and breaks the rules of induction.

Nessie is still a lying troll.
Image

User avatar
Depth Check
Site Moderator
Posts: 808
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:49 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by Depth Check » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Werd, you are on a 6hr ban for posting the Hasbara troll image in the Holocaust forum. Please show more restraint in future.

Werd
Posts: 5694
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:38 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:36 pm

Nessie was told by me at the bottom of page 41 that I have talked to moderator/moderators via PM to tell them of Nessie's dodging and rehashing of refuted arguments. And in reply to me, THEY called Nessie a troll.
viewtopic.php?p=122711#p122711
Nessie of course got upset that I kept calling a spade a spade and was also upset I got away with using that habara picture for so long. He took his ball and ran home to skeptics society forum. He made a thread to get away from the harsh realities of RODOH. He has posted:
https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29223
The issue is that Werd alleges it was impossible to cremate up to 4 bodies in 30 minutes, as claimed by Birkenau Sonderkommando Henryk Tauber. I have been pointing out that claims about how long it takes to cremate a body down to ash for an urn is not relevant to cremating multiple bodies enough so they are cremains that can then be unceremoniously dumped.
You see, after Nessie was caught lying saying Mattogno produced no relevant cremation experiment literature, he then hypocritically tried to cite something out of Mattogno's book. He mentioned a July 1943 document talking about muffles designed for two corpses at a time THAT NEVER ENDED UP BEING BUILT. It was, embarrassingly written by a non expert in the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz who claimed absurd cremation times for corpses that no expert ever held to. He was citing an October 1941 report whose numbers did not bear any resemblance to reality. When that didn't work, Nessie flipped through Mattogno's book and thought he found a winner. He found an experiment with multiple cremations. It turns out, Nessie thought of 'multiple cremations' as multiple corpses in one muffle. But the Luigi experiment, when carefully examined had 4 corpses in 4 muffles and the next two muffles, 5 and 6, were empty. So that's not multiple cremations in the same way Nessie thought. To think otherwise, is to equivocate on "multiple cremations" and equivocation is a fallacy.

After these tactics didn't work, Nessie then brought in a red herring by injecting false skepticism into the debate saying we don't know what Tauber and the Westerbrok experiment was talking about. For Tauber it could mean 4 corpses reduced so well that only ash was left in 30 minutes in one muffle, or they still had some bone chunks. He COMPLETELY invented this false dichotomy. This ignored ONCE AGAIN the Westerbrok cremation study whereby it took ONE CORPSE 50 minutes to be destroyed. Nessie of course pretends we don't know what would be meant by destroyed. No matter. A little logic will tells us given that we know one corpse took 50 minutes.

If the Westerbork cremations can't even have the ability to finish ONE SINGLE corpse off to the point of some ash and chunky remains that would fall through a grate in 30 minutes, THEN OF COURSE you're not going to get 4 BODIES to even get to THAT MINIMAL POINT of there being some bone remains, but still being able to fall through the grate in 30 minutes. It took 50 minutes to properly burn a corpse in Westerbork. 20 whole more minutes. This is fact and Nessie pretends it doesn't exist by injecting false skepticism into the debate by focusing in on something irrelevant that doesn't end up panning out for him anyway.

And.

If the goal of the sonderkommando is to destroy as many bodies as quickly as possible, then THEY AREN'T GOING TO WAIT FOR ONLY ASH TO REMAIN AND NO BONE FRAGMENTS THAT COULD OTHERWISE FALL THROUGH THE GRATE WITH THE WEIGHT OF 4 NEW CORPSES. That would be...wait for it...ILLOGICAL! Why? Because that would get in the way of accomplishing their ALREADY ESTABLISHED goal of disposing of bodies as quickly as possible. This is basic symbolic logic. It's called a conditional statement. It's of course lost on our resident troll, Nessie.

What Nessie wants us to forget is that according to sonderkommando in Auschwitz, they NEVER got the bodies to full on pure ash remains with no bones left. Because these so called eyewitnesses claimed to have testified to have been part of teams that had to smash up chunks of bone in order to please the Nazis. You can see it in some of the drawings of David Olere. Therefore, what I said earlier about a conditional "if...then" statement being violated, FULLY APPLIES. Nessie just brought in a red herring and it went nowhere for him. He failed again.

User avatar
NSDAP
Posts: 1063
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:33 am

Re: Ovens

Post by NSDAP » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:17 am

Nessie said: This thread is to post replies to posts on RODOH, where I can avoid the abuse and moderation that has turned RODOH into a near clone of CODOH.
Well Werd you are going to have to constantly login to that forum to read what Nessie has to say. :) Do you think Nessie is just not intellectual or deliberately trying to stall this place. :?: We can all screw up.
Sicherheitszentrale
𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑𝖘𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝕯𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖘𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝕬𝖗𝖇𝖊𝖎𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖕𝖆𝖗𝖙𝖊𝖎
𝔖𝔱𝔲𝔯𝔪𝔞𝔟𝔱𝔢𝔦𝔩𝔲𝔫𝔤 𝔡𝔢𝔯 𝔑𝔖𝔇𝔄𝔓

Werd
Posts: 5694
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:38 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:18 pm

I do not have to log in. I can read it for free.

Werd
Posts: 5694
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:38 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:25 pm

Relevant cremation experiments would be one where 4/5 bodies are cremated at a time in an over just like at krema II over the space of a few hours. Mattogno find no such experiment. So I am not lying.
Nessie still keeps lying. From me on page 53 here.
9.2.2 talks about experiences from the Westerbork crematoria. In the Westerbork crematorium, two corpses were never done simultaneously. Except for an adult and a small child. "During occasional cremations of one small child together with one adult corpse it had been observed that the small corpses had a significant effect on the cremation process, extending its average duration by 14% (50 minutes to 57 minutes) beyond the average cremation time of single adult corpses." (p. 316)
One adult body took longer than 30 minutes. That is PROOF POSITIVE you can't do 4 bodies in less time in one muffle of a 1930's coke fired oven. It already was established what was possible. Saying we need to find another experiment where 4 bodies were done, in order to know for sure, is just another lie.
Me on page 52.
4 corpses can not be cremated in 30 minutes in one muffle in a late 30's coke fired oven. Increasing the load does not help. Mattogno established this with cremation experiments that showed it took longer than 30 minutes to burn ONE body in ONE muffle. The fact that we already have had cremation experiments done showing one body in one muffle takes longer than 30 minutes IS THE PROOF that you can't do 4 bodies in one muffle in 30 minutes. Your whole stance of, "I can't find enough Jews, therefore Tauber is correct and he witnessed something unprecedented and by all experimental accounts physically impossible, in the history of cremation" is not an argument.
By establishing what a coke fired 30's oven CAN do, we are able to figure out what it CAN NOT do. This is basic logic and Nessie ignores it. He lies when he says we need an experiment with 4 corpses to know for sure if they can be done or not done in 30 minutes in one muffle.
Next.
The Bischoff Letter about predicted cremation capacity of 52 muffles whereby in a 24-hour period 4,756 bodies could be cremated. How is Bischoff a non expert, but Mattogno is an expert? The actual experts, those who were there, in particular the Topf and Sohne engineers are ignored because they admit mass gassing and cremations.
Nessie hides the facts from his readers. As I already said:
He mentioned a July 1943 document talking about muffles designed for two corpses at a time THAT NEVER ENDED UP BEING BUILT. It was, embarrassingly written by a non expert in the Central Construction Office of Auschwitz who claimed absurd cremation times for corpses that no expert ever held to. He was citing an October 1941 report whose numbers did not bear any resemblance to reality.
Check my post here and the other one here on page 41. Nessie was torn apart long ago.
Next.
Nessie flipped through Mattogno's book and thought he found a winner. He found an experiment with multiple cremations. It turns out, Nessie thought of 'multiple cremations' as multiple corpses in one muffle. But the Luigi experiment, when carefully examined had 4 corpses in 4 muffles and the next two muffles, 5 and 6, were empty. So that's not multiple cremations in the same way Nessie thought. To think otherwise, is to equivocate on "multiple cremations" and equivocation is a fallacy.
So, like the rest, it is not relevant.
Nessie thought it was relevant at the time. Which is why he cited it. He failed. Now he waves it off. :lol:
Werd hates it that there will be a time difference depending on how much the corpse is cremated and the Nazi cremation to dump remains will be shorter than cremation to ashes to respectfully return an urn to relatives.
Nessie continues to lie. I never said there was no difference between things that are obviously different. I am saying the difference was IRRELEVANT because the Nazis NEVER TOOK THE BODIES down to that further point of no bones to remain behind. The Westerbrok cremation of a corpse took 50 MINUTES. Even if it was all ash, that means that at the 30 minute point for sure IT WAS NOT THERE. Therefore that means at the 30 minute point, THERE ARE STILL CHUNKS OF ASH FOR ONE BODY. That means that in the case of 4 bodies in one muffle in 30 minutes, THERE FOR SURE WOULD NOT BE ONLY PURE ASH LEFT. Therefore Nessie led us on a path to NOWHERE! When I point out that even the Auschwitz survivors claim they were forced to smash bones up with large sticks/tools, all Nessie has to say is this:
Which is more evidence that the cremation time was short, as more work had to be done to render the cremated remains down.
And as I showed earlier, the fastest way to process Jews is to NOT wait for only ash to remain, but to WAIT FOR BODIES to be rendered down JUST ENOUGH to push them through the grates. THEREFORE this whole dichotomy of ash only versus ash and bones was A USELESS TROLLING TACTIC DESIGNED TO WASTE TIME.

Nessie is incapable of operating in anything other than bad faith. That makes him a troll.

User avatar
NSDAP
Posts: 1063
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:33 am

Re: Ovens

Post by NSDAP » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:34 pm

Werd wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:25 pm
Nessie is incapable of operating in anything other than bad faith. That makes him a troll.
No, but he is repetitious which gets annoying. Have you thoughts on Blakes claims of the Auschwitz ovens being incinerators as well. ATM I thought they were the same as the ones at Gusen.
Sicherheitszentrale
𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑𝖘𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝕯𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖘𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝕬𝖗𝖇𝖊𝖎𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖕𝖆𝖗𝖙𝖊𝖎
𝔖𝔱𝔲𝔯𝔪𝔞𝔟𝔱𝔢𝔦𝔩𝔲𝔫𝔤 𝔡𝔢𝔯 𝔑𝔖𝔇𝔄𝔓

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 1978
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:26 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by blake121666 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:23 am

NSDAP wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:34 pm
Werd wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:25 pm
Nessie is incapable of operating in anything other than bad faith. That makes him a troll.
No, but he is repetitious which gets annoying. Have you thoughts on Blakes claims of the Auschwitz ovens being incinerators as well. ATM I thought they were the same as the ones at Gusen.
All of the German cremation ovens were incinerators. How are you defining "incinerator"?

They were all custom-built and there was a fairly large variety throughout the camps. The Auschwitz ovens were later designs - built in 1943. Gusen had a relatively early-built oil-fired 2-muffle mobile oven.

AB had all of their ovens built by Topf:

K1 had 2-muffle ovens - similar to the Dachau ovens
K2/K3 each had 5 3-muffle ovens
K4/K5 each had a "double-4" (8 muffles each - 4 on each side).

Gusen's double-muffle oven was originally an oil-fired mobile oven that was converted to use coke gasifiers - which were added. I think the old ovens in the first Krema in Dachau had and did the same (I'd have to look into it). Dachau's later-built Krema had ovens very similar to AB's K1.

A quick scan of any of Mattogno's books will give you a quick rundown of the ovens. Just looking at the chapter titles could probably do that for you. Just looking at the pictures of the various ovens shows the large variety. Download one of his books and simply hit the "Page Down/Up" button throughout it until you reach the end. How many differences do you see between the Gusen oven and AB ovens (or ovens that were built similar to the AB ovens - we have few extant pictures of those and none survived the war intact)?

Listing the differences between AB ovens and the Gusen oven would be a boringly long list. They were different in more ways than similar - as far as cremation ovens go.

Werd
Posts: 5694
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:38 am
Contact:

Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:25 pm

Nessie continues to lie:
but witnesses and the disappearance of hundreds of thousands of people inside Birkenau provide evidence mass cremations did happen.
I can't find all the Jews I want. Therefore Tauber witnessed something unprecedented in the history of cremation. The same ovens that could MAYBE do one corpse in 30 minutes, can all of a sudden do 4 in 30 minutes.
Nessie is just back to repeating himself because he has no cremation experiment proving the likelihood that tauber was correct. In order to know about ovens, we have to talk about ovens. Nessie doesn't want to talk about ovens to know about ovens. He wants to talk about automobiles to know about house framing. :lol:
The ONLY way to establish exactly what the Birkenau kremas were capable of, is to run an experiment with multiple cremations, as described by the witnesses and see what happens.
Nessie doesn't realize that he just cut the ground out from under his own feet. Therefore the argumentation he gave above goes out the window. :lol:
Since Nessie is now a good boy and admits we have to talk about ovens to know about ovens AND NOTHING ELSE, since ALL ELSE IS IRRELEVANT TO OVENS, we have to look at what oven experiments there were. Hence: The cremation experiments with ONE CORPSE that took LONGER THAN 30 MINUTES is the proof that YOU CAN'T DO 4 IN 30 MINUTES! This uncomfortable fact has caused Nessie to lie saying we need more experimental data when we don't. He is just blowing hot air.
Werd does his tactic of links to nothing, ad nauseam arguments to claim I have been destroyed
Nessie is complaining that the July 1943 document is full of errors that needed correcting as was pointed out in section 9.6 in Mattogno. :lol: When Nessie can't even say, "here is where mattogno went wrong and why" or "here is why mattogno's footnotes of 559 and 560 on page 344 are being misinterpreted and here is the correct interpretation which will refute Mattogno..." and all he has is bitching that I gave a link...he truly has nothing left. Nessie is also upset that it turns out that ovens mentioned in the documents that could take two bodies per muffle WERE NEVER BUILT!!!
Werd has been forced to accept that cremations as described at Birkenau took less time than the experiments Mattogno and he so loves to quote.
I can't find the experimental data, or the cremation experiments showing this was possible. If Nessie would be so kind and show me some precedent for 30's coke fired ovens for being able to destroy 4 corpses in one muffle in 30 minutes, I would be very appreciative. Especially since he has flip flopped again and admitted above that to truly know about ovens we need recourse to ovens. So if Nessie can't find any experimental data that Mattogno missed that showed that 30's coke fired ovens were capable of disposing of 4 corpses in 30 minutes in one muffle to the point that the remains could fall through the grate when another 4 were added in, then he loses. But BECAUSE of him ALREADY LOSING on that front, that is why he contradicts himself, and flip flops saying we don't need to talk about ovens to know about ovens anymore now. :lol: We can't find all the Jews we should. Therefore the ovens did it somehow someway. It's magic. Not science.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 4 guests