Treblinka

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:15 am

been-there wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:22 am
.....
Two filmed 'eye witnesses' are included in the following videos describing SHOWERS.
One at the very beginning here @ 0:11 to 0:30.


The first eye witness, at about 11 seconds, is quoted as saying "I was in the steam room" and "Then we went into a shower room". It is captioned September 17 1943, Minsk to Treblinka to Budzyn and attributed to Henry Robinson (Heinz Rosenberg, born September 15, 1921 Gottingen, Germany). His full statement is here;

https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findin ... trs_en.pdf

Page 21 has the full details of him describing arriving at Treblinka from Minsk;

"And we saw a gate and it said Treblinka. And it said “Arbeit Mach Frei, the work will make you free.”

That is the first and only time I have seen any witness describe that as the entrance to the camp at TII. All of the rest describe arriving at a railway station. He goes on to say about the steam room and shower;

"And I, my friend Herman Hoffman was an electrician, he said to me, if they ask for locksmith next time, get out too. Locksmith? Yes. I knew about it, I was in the steam room. I got out too. We took Otto Menkin with us and Herman and about hundred people went out. And they said are there any gardeners? Yes. Everybody went as a gardener. The gardeners we never saw again. But we were pushed on the side and we went to a barrack and we had to undress. We had still not prison uniforms but we had old clothes marked with ___. So we had to undress. The little thing we had, here, here, here. Nothing. We were searched from top to bottom. Then we went into a shower room. We didn’t know what it was.
And we got out and then we came to a room where they gave us each one a new uniform and wooden shoes or something like this and then
they said you will stay here and you will be transported to Deshov."

There is more doubt Robertson is at TII because in September 1943 the camp was being closed down. The uprising where hundreds had escaped was on the 2nd August, a month earlier. According to this list of transports to TII, and USHMM the last one was on the 19th August 1943;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ation_camp
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10007257

The obvious answer is that Robinson went to TI, the labour camp, not TII, the death camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 8087
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:04 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:15 am

The first eye witness, at about 11 seconds, is quoted as saying "I was in the steam room" and "Then we went into a shower room". It is captioned September 17 1943, Minsk to Treblinka to Budzyn and attributed to Henry Robinson (Heinz Rosenberg, born September 15, 1921 Gottingen, Germany). His full statement is here;

https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findin ... trs_en.pdf

Page 21 has the full details of him describing arriving at Treblinka from Minsk;

"And we saw a gate and it said Treblinka. And it said “Arbeit Mach Frei, the work will make you free.”

That is the first and only time I have seen any witness describe that as the entrance to the camp at TII. All of the rest describe arriving at a railway station. He goes on to say about the steam room and shower;

"And I, my friend Herman Hoffman was an electrician, he said to me, if they ask for locksmith next time, get out too. Locksmith? Yes. I knew about it, I was in the steam room. I got out too. ...But we were pushed on the side and we went to a barrack and we had to undress. We had still not prison uniforms but we had old clothes marked with ___. So we had to undress. The little thing we had, here, here, here. Nothing. We were searched from top to bottom. Then we went into a shower room. We didn’t know what it was.
And we got out and then we came to a room where they gave us each one a new uniform and wooden shoes or something like this and then they said you will stay here and you will be transported to Deshov."

There is more doubt Robertson is at TII because in September 1943 the camp was being closed down. The uprising where hundreds had escaped was on the 2nd August, a month earlier. According to this list of transports to TII, and USHMM the last one was on the 19th August 1943;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ation_camp
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10007257

The obvious answer is that Robinson went to TI, the labour camp, not TII, the death camp.
Actually, the more obvious answer is that Heinz Rosenberg was just one more lying Jew who exaggerated and lied about his actual war-time experience. If we assume he actually was in Treblinka then we must accept that he was in T2 and not T1. Only a dishonest person intent on cherry-picking from his testimony to buttress a belief-system could conclude that he was describing a visit to T1 — as explained here.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:40 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:04 pm

Actually, the more obvious answer is that Heinz Rosenberg was just one more lying Jew who exaggerated and lied about his actual war-time experience.
Are you now saying his testimony should be discounted?
If we assume he actually was in Treblinka then we must accept that he was in T2 and not T1. Only a dishonest person intent on cherry-picking from his testimony to buttress a belief-system could conclude that he was describing a visit to T1 — as explained here.
It is not cherry picking to highlight two reasons which show it was TI he went to. The date is too late for TII and description of the camp entrance does not match TII.

Even if it was TII, it was at the very end, after gassings had stopped and as it was being emptied prior to being razed to the ground. That could explain the odd comment "there were no toilets". Yet been-there happily accepts his claim there was a steam room and a shower.

This quote, "So the kapos said to us, that kapos, you are the first group that came in and goes out of here alive" also suggests TII. It also makes it clear it is unusual for people to arrive and then leave. Add in "So the kapos said to us, that kapos, you are the first group that came in and goes out of here alive." and "A terrible smell", if we accept it was TII, that is evidence it had been a death camp, not a transit camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 8087
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:47 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:40 pm
been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:04 pm

Actually, the more obvious answer is that Heinz Rosenberg was just one more lying Jew who exaggerated and lied about his actual war-time experience.
Are you now saying his testimony should be discounted?
If we assume he actually was in Treblinka then we must accept that he was in T2 and not T1. Only a dishonest person intent on cherry-picking from his testimony to buttress a belief-system could conclude that he was describing a visit to T1 — as explained here.
It is not cherry picking to highlight two reasons which show it was TI he went to. The date is too late for TII and description of the camp entrance does not match TII.

Even if it was TII, it was at the very end, after gassings had stopped and as it was being emptied prior to being razed to the ground. That could explain the odd comment "there were no toilets". Yet been-there happily accepts his claim there was a steam room and a shower.

This quote, "So the kapos said to us, that kapos, you are the first group that came in and goes out of here alive" also suggests TII. It also makes it clear it is unusual for people to arrive and then leave. Add in "So the kapos said to us, that kapos, you are the first group that came in and goes out of here alive." and "A terrible smell", if we accept it was TII, that is evidence it had been a death camp, not a transit camp.
Your problem is that you are unable to understand what I have just written, so how can you intelligently assess an account that is clearly unreliable? You clearly can't.
You took what fitted your belief-system and ignored what didn't. Busted.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:19 pm

An interview with Stefan Kucharek, a Polish train driver who drive trains to and from TII. Oral history here with a summary;

https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn507880

"Stefan Kucharek, born in Małkinia, Poland in 1922, discusses Małkinia's prewar Jewish community; training as a train engineer in 1939 to avoid forced labor; working as an engine driver delivering French and Polish Jewish prisoners to Treblinka; general details about the transport process; geographical details about the train station and Treblinka’s entrance; finding bottles of expensive alcohol on a transport train from France; atrocities committed by Ukrainian guards; the atmosphere of fear during the war; the Treblinka revolt; Himmler’s visit to Treblinka; the trade for goods that grew between local villagers and camp guards; and his assistance to Jews who escaped across the border to Russia."

The translation is here, he took Jews to the camp and empty trains away from the camp. He also references the smell from the camp;

https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findin ... trl_en.pdf

Page 11
- But later you came to get the empty cars.
- That’s right
. I came; we waited about half an hour, the gate opened and this German
[would say]: “Komm mit”. That’s it. And we were going._______
the engine right away, I hooked up the cars add I came to Treblinka and OK. And later in Małkinia we
would leave the empty cars and we would take the ones with the others, the other half; and we would come here again.
- Did you have a chance to see the empty cars; what did they look like?
- Yes, I did; I did.
- And how was it?
- How was it?—you know, they were full of dirt, full of shit, full of...You know how it
is; these were people.
- Were the cars cleaned in Małkinia?
- Yes, they were; and the Jews were cleaning them themselves.

Page 22
- Initially, the track towards Siedlce had a side track to get gravel, right here. So
initially we were just turning the lever, that is ....., away from us and a Ukrainian
would unhook the engine and you weren’t allowed to go any farther. They had a
diesel engine of their own [unclear, slang: kaczajka]. And later it broke and supposedly Gestapo,
or so, allowed to go closer to the gate and..... ________
- Did you know what was in the cars when you were taking them from the camp?
- Well, there were several things painted on the walls, there were.
- What, for example?
- Well, I didn’t know Yiddish. They there—it was full of shit and piss and this there. A
normal thing—people were riding there, not cattle.
- And the cars you took were empty?
- Yes, empty.
- But you were also taking loaded cars?
- No. Not loaded. I didn’t take loaded cars. There were no loaded cars...

Page 32
- What did we say?—you had to take the Jews to Treblinka and that’s it. It was a simple job. Every one of us knew about it.

Page 16
"Not the smoke but the stench! When we would sit at the table and there was a wind;
from the south, from Treblinka to Małkinia; then you weren’t able to sit still. It stank
so badly at the beginning. And later, you know my friend, they made this
[he coughs]...the crematorium; they were burning._______later it didn’t stink; but at the
beginning they were burning it in the open."
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:26 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:47 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:40 pm
been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:04 pm

Actually, the more obvious answer is that Heinz Rosenberg was just one more lying Jew who exaggerated and lied about his actual war-time experience.
Are you now saying his testimony should be discounted?
If we assume he actually was in Treblinka then we must accept that he was in T2 and not T1. Only a dishonest person intent on cherry-picking from his testimony to buttress a belief-system could conclude that he was describing a visit to T1 — as explained here.
It is not cherry picking to highlight two reasons which show it was TI he went to. The date is too late for TII and description of the camp entrance does not match TII.

Even if it was TII, it was at the very end, after gassings had stopped and as it was being emptied prior to being razed to the ground. That could explain the odd comment "there were no toilets". Yet been-there happily accepts his claim there was a steam room and a shower.

This quote, "So the kapos said to us, that kapos, you are the first group that came in and goes out of here alive" also suggests TII. It also makes it clear it is unusual for people to arrive and then leave. Add in "So the kapos said to us, that kapos, you are the first group that came in and goes out of here alive." and "A terrible smell", if we accept it was TII, that is evidence it had been a death camp, not a transit camp.
Your problem is that you are unable to understand what I have just written, so how can you intelligently assess an account that is clearly unreliable? You clearly can't.
You took what fitted your belief-system and ignored what didn't. Busted.
Your desired belief is TII was a transit camp, you have an entire thread dedicated to buttressing that belief by cherry picking what suits and ignoring the rest. The cherry picking I am referring to is the testimony provided by the unreliable Eric Hunt.

You accepted what Hunt provided without bothering to check it. You were using because it referenced showers and a steam room. You did that because you want to believe TII was a transit camp and hygiene stop.

Now that testimony has been provided in full and it evidences TII as a death camp, you have decided to dismiss it as unreliable. You are totally see through. Your tactic is believe only the witnesses who say what you can fit into your desired outcome.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 8087
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by been-there » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:58 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:26 pm
been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:04 pm

Actually, the more obvious answer is that Heinz Rosenberg was just one more lying Jew who exaggerated and lied about his actual war-time experience.
Are you now saying his testimony should be discounted?
If we assume he actually was in Treblinka then we must accept that he was in T2 and not T1. Only a dishonest person intent on cherry-picking from his testimony to buttress a belief-system could conclude that he was describing a visit to T1 — as explained here.

Your problem is that you are unable to understand what I have just written, so how can you intelligently assess an account that is clearly unreliable? You clearly can't.
You took what fitted your belief-system and ignored what didn't. Busted.
Your desired belief is TII was a transit camp, you have an entire thread dedicated to buttressing that belief by cherry picking what suits and ignoring the rest.

Now that testimony has been provided in full and it evidences TII as a death camp, you have decided to dismiss it as unreliable....
Rosenberg's testimony does not "evidence" T2 as a death camp, anymore than it "evidenced" a train carriage full of Jews miraculously surviving for three days with no food or water other than one pear between them all.

No-one's testimony can replace empirical evidence. It can only lend it conviction.
His testimony is merely anecdotal evidence, which is the least reliable kind of evidence that there is. And his anecdotal evidence is clearly of a very unreliable nature. Only a stupid or dishonest person would refuse to acknowledge that.

Then, Heinz Rosenberg himself said he was transited through the Treblinka 'death camp', you moron. That is not my belief. That is the content of his testimony.

To avoid that fact you ignored the vast majority of his testimony and tried to twist it by cherry picking just those few bits that you could use to try and make it fit T1. It doesn't perfectly fit T2, but it fits T1 even less. You are dishonestly twisting already unreliable anecdote. And you are not doing it very intelligently.
Timewasting troll.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:04 am

been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:58 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:26 pm
......

Your desired belief is TII was a transit camp, you have an entire thread dedicated to buttressing that belief by cherry picking what suits and ignoring the rest.

Now that testimony has been provided in full and it evidences TII as a death camp, you have decided to dismiss it as unreliable....
Rosenberg's testimony does not "evidence" T2 as a death camp, anymore than it "evidenced" a train carriage full of Jews miraculously surviving for three days with no food or water other than one pear between them all.

No-one's testimony can replace empirical evidence. It can only lend it conviction.
His testimony is merely anecdotal evidence, which is the least reliable kind of evidence that there is. And his anecdotal evidence is clearly of a very unreliable nature. Only a stupid or dishonest person would refuse to acknowledge that.
It was me who pointed out the problems with his evidence, after you had presented it as fact. You presented the video which contains his claim without any checking or critique as evidence TII was a transit camp. You are the stupid dishonest person who was relying on what you now admit is unreliable testimony.
Then, Heinz Rosenberg himself said he was transited through the Treblinka 'death camp', you moron. That is not my belief. That is the content of his testimony.
Which you moronically believe, despite claiming he is unreliable. Cognitive dissonance at its best! Then you ignore the date and how he was transited through one of the Treblinka camps, after gassing and cremation operations had finished at TII. :roll:
To avoid that fact you ignored the vast majority of his testimony and tried to twist it by cherry picking just those few bits that you could use to try and make it fit T1. It doesn't perfectly fit T2, but it fits T1 even less. You are dishonestly twisting already unreliable anecdote. And you are not doing it very intelligently.
Timewasting troll.
Indeed, we are not sure which camp he went to. Why did you present what you now call unreliable anecdotal evidence as part of your evidence?

Hunts use of Robinson's testimony further casts doubt on his evidencing. Add in Hunt now accepts he was wrong and there were no mass transits back out of the camps. Add to that Kucharek's testimony of driving trains to TII and returning with empty carriages.

Clearly, the unintelligent one who is cherry picking evidence is you, been-there. No wonder the post containing Kucharek's testimony has vanished, Hannover style and it has not appeared on your moderated Treblinka thread. You want to hide it because it directly contradicts your desired belief.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:37 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:58 pm
..... you ignored the vast majority of his testimony and tried to twist it by cherry picking .....
Ignoring and cherry picking I leave to you, since you have not posted the testimony of Stefan Kucharek on your moderated thread.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:16 pm

been-there wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:58 pm
......
Then, Heinz Rosenberg himself said he was transited through the Treblinka 'death camp', you moron. That is not my belief. That is the content of his testimony.

To avoid that fact you ignored the vast majority of his testimony and tried to twist it by cherry picking just those few bits that you could use to try and make it fit T1. It doesn't perfectly fit T2, but it fits T1 even less. You are dishonestly twisting already unreliable anecdote. And you are not doing it very intelligently.
Timewasting troll.
Confirmation he was referring to arriving at TI comes from witness Piotr Ferenc, who was arrested and sent to work there in an interview;

"Q: To the work camp?
A: Yes, to the work camp.
Q: The death camp wasn’t there yet, right?
A: No, there was nothing there. And when we got to—we were going to the camp. Two Polish policemen and two gendarmes were escorting us. And I looked and I could read from a distance that: “Arbeit macht frei” was written on the gate. Well, that means that work— freedom, work makes freedom."

Rosenberg said, as quoted above; "And we saw a gate and it said Treblinka. And it said “Arbeit Mach Frei, the work will make you free.”

Been-there is now in complete denial because the witnesses have not said what he wants them to have said. He has not done his research and like Hunt he has fucked up. The witnesses are NOT describing being sent to TII, being showered and transited en-mass elsewhere. That so called unreliable anecdote has been corroborated by another witness.

That is why neither he nor any other denier here has dared to debate me about TII or the Polish witnesses.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], TheGodfather and 12 guests