Treblinka

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by blake121666 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:12 pm

aemathisphd wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:19 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:45 am
aemathisphd wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:57 am
blake121666 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:41 am
I just noticed that Elroy there uses 9 bodies per cubic meters in his calculations.



250,000/27,780 = 9.

Mathis doesn't get that most of the cadavers were buried before being cremated later. So the grave sizes would've been for uncremated bodies.

A 90m x 40m field is not 11,309 m^2. It is 3600 m^2 if it is rectangular.

6 people per square meter on the subway would be 3 people per cubic meter (each person is about 2m high).

So Mathis strikes out again!

But I agree that using stadium seating capacity to illustrate grave space isn't a good visualization helper. Cadavers are stacked in mass graves - not seated in seats around a rectangular center!
I'm not sure where you're getting "most." It's my recollection (without checking) that exhumation and burning began while the camp was still in operation. Blobel took charge of Aktion 1005 in June 1942; Treblinka was operating for only a couple of months at that point. Blobel's team started at Chelmno and moved east and were at Belzec by November. Treblinka lies between those two points. Treblinka began operating in April and the Warsaw Ghetto didn't start sending deportees until the summer. The camp operated through the Ghetto's liquidation the following year and that Ghetto provided a plurality, if not majority, of the victims.

My conclusion based on logic alone is that the bodies exhumed and burned was not "most" or even half.

Q.e.d.
All sources have Treblinka incinerations occurring in 1943. Most say it was an order from Himmler in March 1943.
I don't know about "all sources," but fine. Consider the following.

Globocnik received reports in the summer of 1942 that the camp couldn't take any more deportees because the pits were full. The number of deportees at that point was only 300,000. Consider the pit above, covering a ground area of 10,000 square meters. Assuming a human body volume of 0.0664 cubic meters, that pit need only be two meters deep to fit that many bodies -- three meters and you'll have room to spare. Suchomel says in Shoah that the pits were five meters deep.*

I don't think the argument can be feasibly made that there wasn't room to dispose of bodies at Treblinka.

=====

ETA: Should you look for the Suchomel video and don't understand German, please note: The subtitle in this scene is incorrect. It says that Suchomel described the pits as "five feet deep." But he actually says "meters." In fact, you don't even need to understand German on this point -- the word is pretty much identical and you can hear him say it "fünf Meter tief."
Something like 8 corpses per cubic meter is not unreasonable imo. So 300,000 could fit into a 10,000 square meter area 3.75 meters deep (add 2 more meters for top cover). Where did you get 10,000 square meters though? 10,000 m^2 would be about 2 football fields.

aemathisphd
Posts: 823
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by aemathisphd » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:11 pm

I measured the pit on a map.

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by blake121666 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:52 pm

aemathisphd wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:11 pm
I measured the pit on a map.
What pit?

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 25850
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:04 pm

Outlines of some graves at TII, showing up in the 1944 aerial photo of the camp

Image

Image
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

aemathisphd
Posts: 823
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by aemathisphd » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:45 pm

Here's the layout of the camp:

Image

You can see how the treeline at the current site delineates the former camp. 627 is the Quarry Road. You'll need to rotate approx. 180 degrees and view the satellite image:

Click here for map

You can measure distances with Google maps. 10,000 square meters might actually be on the small side.

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by blake121666 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:35 pm

aemathisphd wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:45 pm
Here's the layout of the camp:

Image

You can see how the treeline at the current site delineates the former camp. 627 is the Quarry Road. You'll need to rotate approx. 180 degrees and view the satellite image:

Click here for map

You can measure distances with Google maps. 10,000 square meters might actually be on the small side.
Whatever that square is in that link it is 20,000 sq m.

Here is the satellite image of your square: a bunch of trees!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/07-31 ... 22.0028548

You need to spot the memorial, dumbo!

Here you go, dummy!

Since CSC didn't find any pits worth talking about, your only pit space has to be under the memorials which she didn't investigate (although she very well could have - and should have).

Stout
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:43 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Stout » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:00 pm

Greg Gerdes wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:24 pm
Nessie:

Once the bodies had been cremated they were dumped back into pits... The contents of the pits are still at the camps... CS-C, Kola and Haimi have said they have found graves containing remains... Science show us the pits are irregularly shaped.... The archaeological work done has been scrutinised, cited and accepted by other archaeologists... I do have criminal investigatory, legal and court experience. I also have a degree in history.
Hanna Hasbara's questions to Nessie:
When you say "with the utmost certainty" - is that the same level of certainty that you use to claim 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "using the scientific method" - is that the same method that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "burial site" - are you including the total volume of all 11 “huge mass graves” that you claim - with the utmost certainty - have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "prove" - do you mean prove with the same standard of proof that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

Can you, with the utmost certainty and using the scientific method prove that Treblinka II is not the burial site of at least 813,000 jews - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: No as it does contain at least that number of remains

SFinesilver's questions to Nessie:
#27 - Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes.

#49 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 11

#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 11
When is Nessie going to accept his burden of proof?

aemathisphd
Posts: 823
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by aemathisphd » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:34 am

blake121666 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:35 pm
aemathisphd wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:45 pm
Here's the layout of the camp:

Image

You can see how the treeline at the current site delineates the former camp. 627 is the Quarry Road. You'll need to rotate approx. 180 degrees and view the satellite image:

Click here for map

You can measure distances with Google maps. 10,000 square meters might actually be on the small side.
Whatever that square is in that link it is 20,000 sq m.

Here is the satellite image of your square: a bunch of trees!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/07-31 ... 22.0028548

You need to spot the memorial, dumbo!

Here you go, dummy!

Since CSC didn't find any pits worth talking about, your only pit space has to be under the memorials which she didn't investigate (although she very well could have - and should have).
That's not the square I was talking about but whatever.

20,000 sq meters would make my point for me, doubly so.

Stout
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:43 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Stout » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:53 am

#19. Burial Pits

#20. Execution Site (Disguised as Hospital)

There are 7 alleged "huge mass graves" shown on this map:

Image

Nessie:
There are ten areas identified in yellow where there are remnants of the original mass graves... So 10 pits in total of which six are parts of original pits of which one is 26m x 17m x 4m and the other five are nearby... The gpr at TII by Staffs Uni shows that the original graves were not emptied and refilled without disturbing them. If that was the case then rectangular pits would have shown up on the gpr survey, which as shown here is not the case... They identified the remnants of six of original mass graves of which one is 26m x 17m x 4m... I have always said there is proof of mass graves.

...

As for trash pits, they have been found as well... They are not phantom trash pits


Image

So which areas in yellow are the alleged "huge mass graves" and which ones are the alleged trash pits?

Stout
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:43 am
Contact:

Re: Treblinka

Post by Stout » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:54 am

Nessie wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:04 pm
Outlines of some graves at TII, showing up in the 1944 aerial photo of the camp

Image
Nessie, using science, prove that those outlines are graves.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 16 guests