Treblinka

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Nessie
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Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:29 am

Since been-there will not allow any responses in the formal propositions that do not suit his desired outcome for the thread, I have started a mirror thread here;
been-there wrote:T2
Treblinka 2 began to be built in April 1941 and was operational from the 23rd July 1942 until the 19th October 1943. A period of fifteen months. Despite Treblinka's long six century history from 1436, it was for this brief period of fifteen months that the name Treblinka is now known around the world.
T2 was a camp built as part of Aktion Reinhard. What that operation entailed is still a subject of controversy. A controversy that until the 1980's was not dared to be debated publically. Ernst Zündel changed that.
The enforced consensus narrative is that Aktion Reinhard camps were designed and built “factories of death”. In other words, they were camps whose sole purpose was the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews in gas chambers. It is still claimed today that between 5,000 and 17,000 people a day were killed here at T2 during that time.

Initial 'eye witness' accounts in official Polish reports and Russian post-war ‘investigations’ claimed the mass-murder method was either by vacuum-pump suffocation, or by steam, or by diesel engine exhaust gas, all in “hermetically sealed” chambers. After some decades, a consensus appears to have been silently and tacitly agreed to ignore all testimonies except those that mention the method of killing used petrol engine exhaust. The eye-witness accounts, Nuremburg trial affidavits and official investigations mentioning steam chambers, vacuum pumps and other even more bizarre murder methods are ignored now. Impractical and problematic ‘eye witness' detail of “hermetically sealed” chambers is also quietly avoided in current histories.

Initially it was claimed 3 million people were exterminated here at T2. Yad Vashem later claimed the total of killings here was 850,000. The Dusseldorf trials in 1965 accepted an even lower total of deaths of 700,000. Though how any of these figures were arrived at has never been made clear.

The first camp commandant was Irmfrid Eberl. He was replaced by Franz Stangl. Stangl was kommandant of T2 for almost one year, after whom Kurt Franz took over.
The staff of the concentration camp comprised around 25 to 40 German and Austrian soldiers and about 90 to 150 Ukrainian guards. A mass break-out of around 600 Jewish and Polish inmates occurred on 2nd August 1943. Of these about 200 evaded recapture. Shortly after this uprising the camp was closed. The last transportation of Jews to Treblinka was sent from Białystok on 19th August 1943, and the camp ceased to operate on 19th October of that year.

THE WIDER PICTURE
OK. Let's put this in its bigger context...

1. During World War 2 there was a 'war' going on.

2. People with ethnic origins related to enemy nations were regarded as potentially hostile internal threats by ALL the participant warring nations and were incarcerated in 'concentration camps' and 'labour camps'. That requires rounding up, these ethnically undesirables, getting them to railways, moving them on trains. ALL the warring nations did this to those of their own citizens with the perceived 'wrong' ethnic background. Moving masses of people around on trains doesn't equate with genocide yet.

3. Germany originally just made people regarded as 'potentially hostile Jewish fifth-columnists' wear an identifying yellow star, but later decided to effect a 'final solution' that involved forcing them to emigrate and/or incarcerating them for the duration of the war with the intent of using those able for work, and after victory making them all leave. I.e. exile. E.g. Madagascar was one plan that didn't work out.

4. Rounding up and then moving trainloads of people was just one part of that operation. Other aspects were a.) preventing spread of disease/preventing dangerous epidemics, b.) acquiring needed labour and c.) wealth appropriation. In Canada, America and Britain the same level of cases and risks of Typhus disease among the perceived hostile aliens weren't there. Typhus carriers amongst Polish and Eastern Jews was a pre-existing problem BEFORE WW2.

5. Remember point 1 that there was a war going on. A 'total war', declared by Britain but pushed by international jewry, and after their defeat at Dunkirk with Germany's genuine peace offers rejected before they had even been received or considered. A 'total war' now declared by Britain to be executed with no mercy, with German civilians deliberately targeted and with Germany threatened with annihilation. An escalated 'total war' with people claiming to represent international Jewry working to get America involved against Germany again. Remember that one of international Jewry's representatives Chaim Weizmann bragged that they (Jews) had succesfully done exactly that in WW1. Recall also that most people in Germany — especially Hitler, the wehrmacht top brass and the NSDAP leadership — were bitterly aware of how they had been forced into penury, starvation and widespread national economic and social depression after the unjustly punitive conclusion of WW1. I.e. Germans were perceived to be fighting for their very existence.

6. Remember point 4. moving truckloads/trainloads of people was just one part of that 'endlösung' operation. Other aspects were a.) preventing spread of disease/preventing dangerous epidemics, b.) acquiring needed labour and c.) wealth appropriation.

7. A 'transit camp' is where people ENTER for a time BEFORE BEING TRANSITED TO SOMEWHERE ELSE. If they just stop at a railway station temporarily that is NOT a 'camp'. That's a transit stop. Malkinia could have been such a 'transit stop'. But no-one has ever claimed this. So that is PRECISELY WHY a 'camp' would have been required close to Malkinia.

8. Treblinka village and its Treblinka railway station were tiny.

9. Treblinka 2 not only could and did function as a transit 'point', but it was a fenced 'camp', with buildings, barracks, a bakery, a zoo, a steam facility for disinfecting clothes, with large 'shower' rooms, etc., etc. and with a permanent staff of operators.

10. Treblinka 2 was operated by 25 to 40 German SS and police officials plus a police auxiliary guard unit of between 90 and 150 men.

11. The two Treblinka camps apparently served numerous functions which the holocaust narrative confuses in order to maintain only ONE 'extermination narrative':
T2 augmented and fed operators of the gravel quarry camp (T1),
T1 became a 're-education camp' for troublemakers from other labour camps,
T2 functioned as a transit camp/looting camp/worker sorting camp*/extermination camp*, (*take your pick).

USHMM wrote:
The camp [T1] also served the SS and police authorities as a so-called Labour Education Camp for non-Jewish Poles whom the Germans perceived to have violated labour discipline.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005193

. . . .

THE T2 CAMP FUNCTION: AKTION REINHARD?
If we were to fairly appraise the possibility of T2 being anything other than an extermination camp, we need to consider what else could have been its function?
If it were operated as a 'transit camp', and/or Aktion Reinhard 'wealth appropriation/collection/sorting camp, what would it require?

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for preventing spread of disease, it would need shower facilities and clothes disinfectation facilities
(T2 had showers/parasite* killing chambers and steam rooms).

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for selecting suitable prison-labour camp workers, and transiting them to prison-labour camps, it would need a fence to prevent escape (T2 had a fence) large showering facilites for disease control (T2 had *shower rooms/parasite* killing chambers), food making facilities (T2 had a bakery), clean camp clothes storage, and barracks for inmates and camp operators (T2 had barracks, permant camp workers and guards).

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for wealth appropriation/theft/looting then you need somewhere to store and sort it, people to sort it and document it, and guards to protect it. (T2 had such facilities and guards.)

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for exiling people via train into the Russian zone, it would need to be situated where the railway guage changes. (T2 was exactly at such a 'changing' point: close by Malkinia and served by the pre-existing camp serving T1.)

SUMMARY
If the German war effort had required an out-of-the-way place in this vicinity to transport Jews from Warsaw by tail, relieve them of their wealth, select people for labour and transit the rest to other camps or across the Bug river toward Russian territory, then a camp would be needed to be built here with the above mentioned facilities. Malkinia Railway junction, Treblinka village, and Treblinka Village Railway station didn't have ANY of these facilities.

The only question appears to be just which type of perceived parasites* were being killed in those chambers?
. . . . . .

Alternatively, if we were to fairly appraise the possibility of T2 being nothing other than an extermination camp and wealth appropriation centre, what different facilities would it be required to have other than the above?

• A method for disposing of hundreds of thousands of bodies without polluting the water table.

• A place to dispose hundreds of thousands of corpses without polluting the water table.

T2 didn't have either.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:39 am

been-there wrote:T2
....
THE WIDER PICTURE
OK. Let's put this in its bigger context...

1. During World War 2 there was a 'war' going on.

2. People with ethnic origins related to enemy nations were regarded as potentially hostile internal threats by ALL the participant warring nations and were incarcerated in 'concentration camps' and 'labour camps'. That requires rounding up, these ethnically undesirables, getting them to railways, moving them on trains. ALL the warring nations did this to those of their own citizens with the perceived 'wrong' ethnic background. Moving masses of people around on trains doesn't equate with genocide yet.

3. Germany originally just made people regarded as 'potentially hostile Jewish fifth-columnists' wear an identifying yellow star, but later decided to effect a 'final solution' that involved forcing them to emigrate and/or incarcerating them for the duration of the war with the intent of using those able for work, and after victory making them all leave. I.e. exile. E.g. Madagascar was one plan that didn't work out.

4. Rounding up and then moving trainloads of people was just one part of that operation. Other aspects were a.) preventing spread of disease/preventing dangerous epidemics, b.) acquiring needed labour and c.) wealth appropriation. In Canada, America and Britain the same level of cases and risks of Typhus disease among the perceived hostile aliens weren't there. Typhus carriers amongst Polish and Eastern Jews was a pre-existing problem BEFORE WW2.

5. Remember point 1 that there was a war going on. A 'total war', declared by Britain but pushed by international jewry, and after their defeat at Dunkirk with Germany's genuine peace offers rejected before they had even been received or considered. A 'total war' now declared by Britain to be executed with no mercy, with German civilians deliberately targeted and with Germany threatened with annihilation. An escalated 'total war' with people claiming to represent international Jewry working to get America involved against Germany again. Remember that one of international Jewry's representatives Chaim Weizmann bragged that they (Jews) had succesfully done exactly that in WW1. Recall also that most people in Germany — especially Hitler, the wehrmacht top brass and the NSDAP leadership — were bitterly aware of how they had been forced into penury, starvation and widespread national economic and social depression after the unjustly punitive conclusion of WW1. I.e. Germans were perceived to be fighting for their very existence.

6. Remember point 4. moving truckloads/trainloads of people was just one part of that 'endlösung' operation. Other aspects were a.) preventing spread of disease/preventing dangerous epidemics, b.) acquiring needed labour and c.) wealth appropriation.

......
The British interred Germans, Austrians and Italians during WWII because, like the Jewish people, there were potential enemies within. The majority were sent to the Isle of Man in the Irish Sea.

The big difference between the two internment programmes is that I can prove the British did not gas or shoot those people whilst they were interred. There is no German etc internee who speaks to a gassing. No British guard speaks to a gassing. The internees, guards and locals on the Isle of Man speak to people living well, in decent accommodation, those who wanted to work did so on local farms. No place has been identified as a gas chamber or site of mass shootings. No mass graves have been found. There are no reports of mass cremations.

That is the negative evidence no mass killing took place. The positive evidence is that records kept show the release of the internees and people returning to their homes and lives before internment.

Denialists cannot produce any evidence like that for the Jews sent to TII. The truly enquiring mind with any intelligence should instantly see that huge difference and be suspicious as to why.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:50 am

been-there wrote:T2
.....

7. A 'transit camp' is where people ENTER for a time BEFORE BEING TRANSITED TO SOMEWHERE ELSE. If they just stop at a railway station temporarily that is NOT a 'camp'. That's a transit stop. Malkinia could have been such a 'transit stop'. But no-one has ever claimed this. So that is PRECISELY WHY a 'camp' would have been required close to Malkinia.

8. Treblinka village and its Treblinka railway station were tiny.

9. Treblinka 2 not only could and did function as a transit 'point', but it was a fenced 'camp', with buildings, barracks, a bakery, a zoo, a steam facility for disinfecting clothes, with large 'shower' rooms, etc., etc. and with a permanent staff of operators.

......
Malkinia and TI were the camps with accommodation for people staying or working there. TII is distinctive for having accommodation for the people working there and nothing else for the hundreds of thousands multiple records such as the Warsaw Shuttle Train records, Hofle Telegram and Korherr Report prove were sent there.

The hypothesis TII was a transit point is unevidenced. Note how been-there does not include any witnesses or documents to back up his claim. He produces nothing to prove steam disinfection facilities or a large shower room. None of the "permanent staff of operators" claim it was a transit point. Instead, they all admit it was a death camp. That means either a mass CT whereby all the witnesses were persuaded to lie or it was not a transit point.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:55 am

been-there wrote:T2
.....

10. Treblinka 2 was operated by 25 to 40 German SS and police officials plus a police auxiliary guard unit of between 90 and 150 men.

11. The two Treblinka camps apparently served numerous functions which the holocaust narrative confuses in order to maintain only ONE 'extermination narrative':
T2 augmented and fed operators of the gravel quarry camp (T1),
T1 became a 're-education camp' for troublemakers from other labour camps,
T2 functioned as a transit camp/looting camp/worker sorting camp*/extermination camp*, (*take your pick).

......
I pick extermination camp because that is what the evidence proves. Multiple witnesses all of whom speaking to it being a death camp. Documents showing hundreds of thousands sent there, including the Stroop Report which explicitly states why, their liquidation during the Warsaw Ghetto closure. The physical evidence of a large area of disturbed ground containing cremated and larger human remains.

There is also no evidence of large transits back of the camp. Eric Hunt tried that and ended up admitting he was wrong. Selections of some adult to go on and work elsewhere, adults who speak to never seeing the others again, is evidence it was a death camp.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:09 am

been-there wrote:T2
.....

THE T2 CAMP FUNCTION: AKTION REINHARD?
If we were to fairly appraise the possibility of T2 being anything other than an extermination camp, we need to consider what else could have been its function?
If it were operated as a 'transit camp', and/or Aktion Reinhard 'wealth appropriation/collection/sorting camp, what would it require?

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for preventing spread of disease, it would need shower facilities and clothes disinfectation facilities
(T2 had showers/parasite* killing chambers and steam rooms).

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for selecting suitable prison-labour camp workers, and transiting them to prison-labour camps, it would need a fence to prevent escape (T2 had a fence) large showering facilites for disease control (T2 had *shower rooms/parasite* killing chambers), food making facilities (T2 had a bakery), clean camp clothes storage, and barracks for inmates and camp operators (T2 had barracks, permant camp workers and guards).

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for wealth appropriation/theft/looting then you need somewhere to store and sort it, people to sort it and document it, and guards to protect it. (T2 had such facilities and guards.)

• If T2 was a 'transit camp' for exiling people via train into the Russian zone, it would need to be situated where the railway guage changes. (T2 was exactly at such a 'changing' point: close by Malkinia and served by the pre-existing camp serving T1.)

SUMMARY
If the German war effort had required an out-of-the-way place in this vicinity to transport Jews from Warsaw by tail, relieve them of their wealth, select people for labour and transit the rest to other camps or across the Bug river toward Russian territory, then a camp would be needed to be built here with the above mentioned facilities. Malkinia Railway junction, Treblinka village, and Treblinka Village Railway station didn't have ANY of these facilities.

The only question appears to be just which type of perceived parasites* were being killed in those chambers?
.....
This is typical denialist. "If T2 was", which is an uncertainty, for which no supporting evidence is provided by witnesses, documents etc to support it, then results in the conclusion it was a transit stop for AR, the mass theft of property. Denialist deduction is being presented as if it is the equivalent of evidence and proof.

There is evidence TII was used to steal property, including the clothes of those who arrived. The property was sent on to camps such as Majdanek for sorting and distribution. TI was only for collection.

There is no evidence TII had showers/disinfection facilities for hundreds of thousands of prisoners. No witness speaks to anyone showering and leaving the camp to go elsewhere. There is also no record of hundreds of thousand of already disinfected, clean prisoners arriving at other camps. Indeed, all camps had disinfection procedures for arriving prisoners. Prisoners arriving clean and ready to work would be notable.

The issue of railway gauge change is odd. The sensible place to have a camp would be where the gauge changes. No evidence has been presented to show the railway gauge changed at or near TII.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:16 am

been-there wrote:T2
......

Alternatively, if we were to fairly appraise the possibility of T2 being nothing other than an extermination camp and wealth appropriation centre, what different facilities would it be required to have other than the above?

• A method for disposing of hundreds of thousands of bodies without polluting the water table.

• A place to dispose hundreds of thousands of corpses without polluting the water table.

T2 didn't have either.
Denialists know they cannot use the normal, universally accepted academic standard of the historical method. So, they suggest using the empirical method, which consists of unevidenced assertions and deductions which are faulty, because the evidence which is ignored, proves TII was a death camp.

This is where denialists are shown to very arrogant and dismissive of normal standards of enquiry and evidence. An opinion, based on a hypothesis, is presented as if it is proof. It is not. Come back with witnesses speaking to TII was a mass transit camp. Come back with documents showing mass arrivals of clean prisoners at other camps or ghettos. Come back with testimony from surviving prisoners and guards to mass showering at TII's showers. Come back with evidence of what is buried at TII and that mass corpses disposal would pollute the water table for surrounding inhabitants.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Greg Gerdes » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:24 pm

Nessie:

Once the bodies had been cremated they were dumped back into pits... The contents of the pits are still at the camps... CS-C, Kola and Haimi have said they have found graves containing remains... Science show us the pits are irregularly shaped.... The archaeological work done has been scrutinised, cited and accepted by other archaeologists... I do have criminal investigatory, legal and court experience. I also have a degree in history.
Hanna Hasbara's questions to Nessie:
When you say "with the utmost certainty" - is that the same level of certainty that you use to claim 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "using the scientific method" - is that the same method that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "burial site" - are you including the total volume of all 11 “huge mass graves” that you claim - with the utmost certainty - have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "prove" - do you mean prove with the same standard of proof that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 11 extant "huge mass graves" have been proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

Can you, with the utmost certainty and using the scientific method prove that Treblinka II is not the burial site of at least 813,000 jews - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: No as it does contain at least that number of remains

SFinesilver's questions to Nessie:
#27 - Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes.

#49 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 11

#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 11

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:51 pm

What was the point posting a list of already answered questions?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka

Post by Lily » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:38 pm

Hey Nessie, see this about Treblinka:

Image

caption: "crane lifting corpses destined for cremation" :lol:

source:
'Surviving Treblinka ', by Samuel Willenberg.

Anyone see any "corpses"? :lol:

Hey Nessie,
Show us those Treblinka homicidal steam chambers that were claimed at Nuremberg. After all, the communists presented a detailed 'study'.
It was accepted and never challenged by anyone at Nuremberg. :lol:

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Re: Treblinka

Post by aemathisphd » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:56 pm

Lily wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:38 pm
Hey Nessie, see this about Treblinka:

Image

caption: "crane lifting corpses destined for cremation" :lol:

source:
'Surviving Treblinka ', by Samuel Willenberg.

Anyone see any "corpses"? :lol:

Hey Nessie,
Show us those Treblinka homicidal steam chambers that were claimed at Nuremberg. After all, the communists presented a detailed 'study'.
It was accepted and never challenged by anyone at Nuremberg. :lol:
Enjoy it while you can, Lily. You're getting one time around with all your "arguments," and once the well goes dry, you might actually have to think.

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