"Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30674
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

Wurm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:46 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:52 pm


The key figure is missing. How many Polish Jews were liberated 1944-5 and where did they go? The linked to article is full of figures for other years. For denialism to be true, there needs to be evidence that as the camps were liberated, some 3 million Polish Jews (that historians and governments claim were killed) were in fact released and resettled. I am presuming you are not claiming they went home and accept that many Polsih cities, towns and villages never saw their Jewish population again. Though that in its self raises the question of, why not? Why did millions (90%) not go home and abandon property, jobs, houses, farms, businesses?

The vast majority were liberated by the Soviets. Is there any evidence, documents, witnesses to say what happened to them? Were they kept interred, or allowed home? What about the role of the Polish Government? Why did they say nothing about 3 million of their people living elsewhere? The answer needs to be specific to 1944-5.

The USA keeps immigration records, so show how many arrived who were Polish Jews? Israel did not come into place for another 4 years, so where were thsoe immigrants meantime? Israel also keeps records, so how many went there?

Your suggestion they just stayed in the Soviet Union needs evidencing. Three million Poles now living in the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic States is a lot of people to suddenly feed, house, cloth and find work for. It is also a lot of people to produce no witnesses of that happening, at all.
That many Polish Jews escaped to the Soviet Union and that the Soviet Union restricted Jewish emigration in the postwar period is uncontroversial. The only issue is the numbers.

"a lot of people to suddenly feed, house, cloth and find work for". Something definitely not problematic was finding work to do in the postwar period after the gigantic loss of lives and general destruction during the war. The Soviet Union even used large numbers of Germans civilians/POWs as forced laborer for rebuilding purposes. Some people starving never bothered Stalin.
As I said, that needs evidencing.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

SUPPORT RODOH!
Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH? Please kindly contact Scott Smith ([email protected]). Any and all contributions are welcome!


User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 3443
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by blake121666 »

Wurm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:59 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
Sanning's premise is that the Jews left the German-occupied areas before those areas were occupied.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

There was a GERMAN MINORITY CENSUS OF 1938-1939

The Germans claimed at that time that the combined German/Austrian (but not including the Protectorate) lands had 691,163 persons mark themselves as Jews in this census.

But look at Sanning's "Table 1" on that webpage. He claims that there were only 263,000 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939.

Why did 691,163 CLAIM they were Jews in the census then? If Sanning doesn't accept that there were 691,163 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939 based on this census where people self-identified themselves as minorities (of which 691,163 identified as Jews) in the Reich, then what good are his figures? How is it possible that people would've identified as Jews in the Reich if they weren't?

His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
The 691,163 number is from an "American Jewish Year Book" which did not list sources for claims.

Around 250,000 Jews in Germany/Austria in 1939 is a rather uncontroversial number, stated by the 1939 census, postwar by the Allies, and now by the USHMM:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angap03.asp
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005468
I mistakenly thought the AJC yearbook used this census. It must not have - because the Korherr Report mentions this census in the following way:
Korherr Report, section I wrote:The German census of the racial Jews in 1939 lists the only slightly higher of 330, 892 full and 72, 738 half and 42,811 quarter Jews with the figure 307,614 religious Jews. These figures cannot be regarded as trustworthy, particularly in the case of the half and quarter Jews.

These figures can only be considered to represent minimums. They originated as answers to a question appearing on a card to be filled out for the German census of 1939, “Was, or is one of your grandparents Jewish?” This question was to be answered yes or no for each grandparent. Since these cards were to be handed in, in a sealed envelope and could not be examined on the spot, they were filled out poorly. In many cases instead of an answer there were only marks made in the corresponding boxes.
So the KR saw the 1939 census giving at least 330,892 "full" Jews in the Altreich in 1939. I mistakenly told someone else what I posted here about the 691,163. It was probably less than half that - given this census data.

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 3443
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by blake121666 »

permanent_denial wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 am
blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
Sanning's premise is that the Jews left the German-occupied areas before those areas were occupied.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

There was a GERMAN MINORITY CENSUS OF 1938-1939

The Germans claimed at that time that the combined German/Austrian (but not including the Protectorate) lands had 691,163 persons mark themselves as Jews in this census.

But look at Sanning's "Table 1" on that webpage. He claims that there were only 263,000 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939.

Why did 691,163 CLAIM they were Jews in the census then? If Sanning doesn't accept that there were 691,163 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939 based on this census where people self-identified themselves as minorities (of which 691,163 identified as Jews) in the Reich, then what good are his figures? How is it possible that people would've identified as Jews in the Reich if they weren't?

His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
What do you mean "his Polish data is bizarre"?
He has only 791,000 Jews in Western Poland and none in Eastern Poland. He has 74% of the Polish Jews being evacuated from there before the Germans enter (in less than 2 years - ALL Eastern Poland Jews evacuated by the Soviets).

The KR has 1.5 million Jews being evacuated by the Germans from the "Eastern Territories" (mostly Poland) to "the Russian East". Where did those particular 1.5 million come from if there were only 791,000 Jews in Poland for the Germans to deal with?

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30674
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

Where have the Jews of German annexed Poland gone, to reduce their number to 791,000? The General Government area was where Jews were deported to as other areas removed their Jewish populations.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Wurm
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

blake121666 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:50 am
permanent_denial wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 am
blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
What do you mean "his Polish data is bizarre"?
He has only 791,000 Jews in Western Poland and none in Eastern Poland. He has 74% of the Polish Jews being evacuated from there before the Germans enter (in less than 2 years - ALL Eastern Poland Jews evacuated by the Soviets).

The KR has 1.5 million Jews being evacuated by the Germans from the "Eastern Territories" (mostly Poland) to "the Russian East". Where did those particular 1.5 million come from if there were only 791,000 Jews in Poland for the Germans to deal with?
You may have missed that "Eastern Poland" is listed twice in the table:

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30674
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

Eastern Poland, where the death camps were.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Wurm
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Nessie wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:02 am
Eastern Poland, where the death camps were.
Wrong again, the supposed "death camps" were in the General Government (=Western Poland) or Germany.

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 3443
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by blake121666 »

Wurm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:43 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:50 am
permanent_denial wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 am
blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
What do you mean "his Polish data is bizarre"?
He has only 791,000 Jews in Western Poland and none in Eastern Poland. He has 74% of the Polish Jews being evacuated from there before the Germans enter (in less than 2 years - ALL Eastern Poland Jews evacuated by the Soviets).

The KR has 1.5 million Jews being evacuated by the Germans from the "Eastern Territories" (mostly Poland) to "the Russian East". Where did those particular 1.5 million come from if there were only 791,000 Jews in Poland for the Germans to deal with?
You may have missed that "Eastern Poland" is listed twice in the table:

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/
I've read his book. Sanning has zero Jews in the Polish area occupied by the Soviets when the Germans invade that area. That's the main premise of his book. So I don't understand what you are getting at here. Are you claiming that Sanning claims there were more Jews than 791,000 in Poland (East and West) in 1941? He claims the Soviets evacuated all the Jews, does he not?

If you say otherwise, please tell me how many Jews Sanning claims were in occupied Poland (jointly occupied by Germany and the USSR) at the outbreak of Operation Barbarossa (June 22, 1941). I want a number.

Wurm
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:39 pm
Wurm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:43 pm
blake121666 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:50 am
permanent_denial wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 am


What do you mean "his Polish data is bizarre"?
He has only 791,000 Jews in Western Poland and none in Eastern Poland. He has 74% of the Polish Jews being evacuated from there before the Germans enter (in less than 2 years - ALL Eastern Poland Jews evacuated by the Soviets).

The KR has 1.5 million Jews being evacuated by the Germans from the "Eastern Territories" (mostly Poland) to "the Russian East". Where did those particular 1.5 million come from if there were only 791,000 Jews in Poland for the Germans to deal with?
You may have missed that "Eastern Poland" is listed twice in the table:

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/
I've read his book. Sanning has zero Jews in the Polish area occupied by the Soviets when the Germans invade that area. That's the main premise of his book. So I don't understand what you are getting at here. Are you claiming that Sanning claims there were more Jews than 791,000 in Poland (East and West) in 1941? He claims the Soviets evacuated all the Jews, does he not?

If you say otherwise, please tell me how many Jews Sanning claims were in occupied Poland (jointly occupied by Germany and the USSR) at the outbreak of Operation Barbarossa (June 22, 1941). I want a number.
You criticized Table 1 which states nothing on the situation in 1941. Regarding 1941, see Table 3 or 5, which states 1,026,000 Jews in Eastern Poland in 1941.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30674
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

The important years are 1944-5 as what was left of the camps and ghettos were being liberated. How many Jews were in them?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 28 guests