"Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

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Wurm
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"Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

"Where did they go?"

Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, and Thomas Kues state that the Western Jews deported to the occupied Soviet Union and who survived the war were in effect killed by Stalin. See:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_ ... homas_Kues

This is a thread for discussing this theory. So, what are the objections? The genocidal mass murderer and increasingly anti-Semitic Stalin is not an unlikely perpetrator for something like this.

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DasPrussian
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by DasPrussian »

There is nothing to discuss. It is pure speculation, verging on fantasy.
All I want for Christmas is a Dukla Prague away kit

Wurm
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Actually, MGK cites lots of supporting evidence. One example:

"For 1949 we also have the news summary of the 1950 edition the
American Jewish Year Book already quoted by us in Sobibór, 1714 which
mentions 1715

“[…] reports about the mass deportation of Jews from the Western
border region of the Soviet Union, especially from White Russia, the
Ukraine, Eastern Galicia, Bukovina, and Bessarabia. According to one re-
port, the deportation affected mainly the Jewish citizens who had relatives
in America or Western Europe; other sources maintain that the whole Jew-
ish population of some territories was deported.”

Moreover, it emphasizes that 1715
“The American Jewish League against Communism sent a protest to the
Secretary General of the U.N. in which it estimated the number of Jews af-
fected by the deportations as 400,000.”
Last edited by Wurm on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wurm
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Another

“ In its 1951
edition, the American Jewish Year Book again noted reports of mass
deportation:

The reports of deportations of Jews from some border territories of the
Soviet Union (see AMERICAN JEWISH YEAR BOOK, 1950, Volume 51, p.
340) were repeated during 1949-50. There was a report that the entire Jew-
ish population of Lwow in Western Ukraine (formerly Eastern Poland)
where 30,000 Soviet Jews had settled after World War II, had been com-
pletely evacuated. Similar reports came from Bessarabia and North Buko-
vina (The Yiddish [Morning] Journal, August 15, 1949; JTA, August 19,
1949, [from Tel Aviv]); in this case, they were denied and labelled as ‘fan-
tastic’ by the Soviet Embassy in Washington on August 18, 1949. According
to these accounts, the Soviet authorities in Kishinev and Czernowitz had
announced on July 1, 1949, that Jews wishing to emigrate to Israel should
register with the local authorities; the majority of the local Jewish popula-
tion registered and was sent to concentration camps near Murmansk. Ac-
cording to another report all Jews with relatives in the United States or
England had been deported. It remained impossible to confirm these ac-
counts. The United States State Department received reports confirming
simultaneous mass deportations of Greeks from the Black Sea area; but as
to Ukrainian Jews, it could only say that reports of their deportation had
reached the American Embassy in Moscow, but could not be verified, due
to travel restrictions imposed on the Embassy personnel.”

Wurm
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Yet another:

In its 1953 edition, the American Jewish Year Book carried the fol-
lowing report: 1718

“Reports of deportations of Jews from [Soviet] border territories […]
were confirmed by new information printed in the Christian Science Moni-
tor in March 1952. According to this and other reports, the transports of
deportees from the Ukraine and White Russia were continuing, and all
Jews had reportedly been removed from some districts, such as Rovno and
Zdolbunov. At the beginning of the deportation, the Jews were assured by
the police that this was not a penal action and that they were being re-
moved ‘for their own security’ because the German occupation had left
dangerous seeds of anti-Semitism; the deportees were given twenty-four to
forty-eight hours’ notice of the transports. Later the tactics were changed,
and the victims were rounded up in surprise midnight raids and removed at
once. According to the Israelitisches Wochenblatt of Zurich, July 31-August
8, 1952, a similar evacuation was carried out in Kharkov, where 4,000
Jews were removed from the city. […]
Some of the deportees may have been sent to Birobidjan, where several
districts were put under the administration of the secret police and trans-
formed into slave labor regions. Some persons who passed through Biro-
bidjan during and after World War II recalled having seen forced labor
trains arriving there as early as 1944. The existence of such camps would
explain the complete silence about Birobidjan for the past several years,
and the complete severance of any contacts between its inhabitants and the
other Jews in the Soviet Union.”

Roberto
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

Wurm wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:13 pm
"Where did they go?"

Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, and Thomas Kues state that the Western Jews deported to the occupied Soviet Union and who survived the war were in effect killed by Stalin. See:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_ ... homas_Kues

This is a thread for discussing this theory. So, what are the objections?
That there's no evidence whatsoever in support of MGK's imbecilic theory, just silly speculations.
Wurm wrote:The genocidal mass murderer and increasingly anti-Semitic Stalin is not an unlikely perpetrator for something like this.
Actually the most anti-Semitic thing the "genocidal mass murderer" Stalin is known to have engaged in is the so-called Doctor's Plot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) shortly before he beat the boots, which didn't claim all that many victims. As to MGK's "Stalin killed them" imbecility, I'll post again what I've already posted on another thread. When I'm finished you can tell me what evidence produced by MGK in support of their theory (if any) I'm supposed to have missed, and I'll address it then.

While I reproduce the aforementioned posts, here are three exercises for you, Wurm.

1. Please prove, according to your "Revisionist" standards of evidence, that Stalin was a "genocidal mass murderer". Tell us what genocides he's supposed to have committed and how many lives those genocides are supposed to have claimed in your book. Then show us all evidence supporting your claims that you would accept if Nazi crimes were at issue. I'm curious about what you can come up with.

2. Please tells us how many Jews from the Polish territories annexed to Germany, the Generalgouvernement, the Reich and Western Europe (an order of magnitude will do) are supposed to have been deported to the occupied territories of the USSR (the Reichskommisariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration), where they would have been within Stalin's reach for those postwar genocidal deportations that MGK fantasize about. Then provide some evidence that such deportations actually took place.

3. What you consider evidence that "Stalin killed them", namely the American Jewish Yearbook quotes you provided, are renderings of accounts or reports received by the AJW, which were not confirmed as the AJY even expressly states in one case ("It remained impossible to confirm these accounts."). They are thus as irrelevant as reports and newspaper articles about supposed Iraqi weapons of mass destruction prior to the 2003 US invasion of Iraq (which turned out to be bullshit), or as claims by Soviet dissidents about tens of millions of Gulag victims (same here), unless solid evidence supporting those accounts and reports is provided. So please tell us, what evidence (if any) do MGK provide showing that the accounts and reports mentioned in your AJY quotes are accurate? How many Jews are supposed to have been deported and perished according to such accounts and reports? And why do you accept the AJY's rendering of unconfirmed accounts and reports as evidence that Stalin had millions of Jews you cannot account for killed? Would you accept the AJY's rendering of accounts and reports received about Nazi mass killings of Jews as evidence that such mass killings actually took place? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Last edited by Roberto on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

That said, here's some of what I already wrote on the thread viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2951 about Metapedia "demographics" in general and MGK's conjectures in particular.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2951#p108288:
Roberto wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:13 pm
The beaten old world almanach gambit (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Holocaust_ ... nac_gambit) is so silly that even the Metapedia authors don’t pursue it, merely dedicating one paragraph to it, at the end of which they state that "Critics have dismissed this as the estimates simply not yet being updated."

The essential "Revisionist" arguments regarding demographic data derive from the writings of W.N. Sanning. Metapedia brags that "scholarly revisionists" (lol) rely on "extensive and detailed research such as in the book The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry by Walter N. Sanning".

To the misfortune of such "scholarly revisionists", Sanning is notorious for selectively quoting and otherwise manipulating evidence, as demonstrated first in John Zimmerman’s book Holocaust Denial, and more comprehensively in the following blog articles collected under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... g%20Series,

especially the series "The Crazy World of Walter Sanning":
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-1.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-2.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-3.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-4.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-5.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-6.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-7.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-8.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-9.html.

Now let’s look at the Metapedia arguments associated with Sanning’s manipulations of evidence.
Metapedia wrote:Revisionists thus argue that the main non-revisionist demographic calculation regarding the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust uses a method which can be summarized as starting with the last pre-war census number of Jews in a country and subtracting the first post-war census number of Jews. This is argued to grossly overstate the number of civilian Jews killed by Germans. Jews are often depicted only as civilians killed by Germans but many Jews were killed as military personal or as partisans.
Just how many Jews were killed as military personnel or as partisans?

Most of the 300,000 Soviet Jews not murdered by the Nazis, mentioned by Nolte, were Red Army soldiers. According to an article under http://forward.com/culture/145899/jews- ... -red-army/, about 200,000 out of 500,000 Jewish Soviet soldiers were killed in World War II. I don’t know of any other European armed forces that had a significant number of Jews among its ranks.

As to partisans, the total number of Soviet partisans killed, according to Marjanović’s breakdown, was about 150,000. As there were only about 20-30,000 Jewish partisans in all of Europe, see under https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/li ... a-partisan, the number of deaths among Soviet Jewish partisans must have been comparatively negligible. See also the translated excerpts from Gerlach’s and Golczewski’s studies under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... UpCDJgku1s.
Metapedia wrote:Others were killed by factors such as Allied bombings or diseases/starvation/cold exposure (in part due to extensive Allied bombing of infrastructure).
Where, in Poland and the Soviet Union? There were little Allied bombings in the former, none in the latter.
The maximum number of Soviet inhabitants killed by bombing and in ground fighting was about 450,000, according to Marjanović. Only a fraction of these (at most commensurate with the proportion of Jews among the Soviet population) would have been Jews.

The same applies as concerns victims of general privation, the number of which is estimated at ca. 8.1 million at maximum by Marjanović. 5.1 million Jews made up just about 2.59 % of the Soviet population of 196.7 million on 22 June 1941 (according to Ellman and Maksudov, as above), so even if Jews had died of hardship like other Soviet citizens, this would mean only about 210,000 Jewish deaths from among the ca. 8.1 million Soviet hardship victims. Actually the number was more like 100,000 according to Nolte, which makes sense as hardship deaths would mostly occur among the portion of the Soviet Union’s Jewish population that lived in territory not occupied by the Nazis.

As to Allied bombings in the west having affected the survival chances of concentration camp inmates, that may be so but it’s hardly sustainable to put the blame on the Allies alone rather than chiefly blame those who had put Jews and others in concentration camps in the first place. "Revisionists" who argue otherwise should also attribute to their beloved Führer alone all deaths that occurred in the Gulag during the war due to lack of food as a consequence of Nazi Germany’s invasion of the USSR.
Metapedia wrote:In particular the Soviet Union where many Jews lived or fled to from Poland killed many of its own citizens through mismanagement and persecutions before, during, and after the war. (Jews in the Soviet Union are argued to have lost much of their former influence in the years before the war during the alliance with National Socialist Germany and the Great Purge which reduced the number of Jews in the upper echelons of the NKVD secret police from 40% to 4%.) Many Jews in the Soviet Union were evacuated/deported to eastern areas such as Siberian labor camps (the Gulag camp system) and other eastern locations before, during, and after the war. In particular, the Soviet Union conducted massive evacuations/deportations eastwards of Jews and other groups during war.
About 2.4 million out of 5.1 million Jews on Soviet territory got away from the Nazis according to Nolte, and the number of these who ended up in the Gulag camp system was comparatively negligible. Marjanović provides the following numbers for victims of Soviet state repression in the 1941-45 war:

Deaths in prisons and camps and colonies of the gulag 1,000,000
Deaths in deportations, internal exile and the labor army 300,000
Executions by civil authorities 65,000
Executions by military tribunals 135,000
Total deaths due to Soviet state repression 1,500,000

Let’s assume for the sake of argument that 2.59 % of these 1.5 million were Jews. That would make about
39,000 Jewish victims of Soviet repression, a piss in the ocean. And the actual number of Jewish victims of wartime Soviet repression must have been even lower, as is suggested by the figures mentioned under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _6747.html.
Metapedia wrote:Many Jews may have been unable to leave the Soviet Union after the war and assimilated.
Assimilated Jews might still self-identify as Jews the Soviet census of 1959. This census considered as Jews only those Jews who had self-identified as Jews and thus corresponded to the ‘core Jewish population’. This 'core Jewish population' does not include persons of Jewish origin who reported another ethnic nationality in the census. The ‘enlarged Jewish population’, which includes Jews regardless to how they self-identified for census purposes and their non-Jewish family members, may be considerably larger than the ‘core Jewish population’. (Yaacov Ro'i (editor), Jews and Jewish Life in Russia and the Soviet Union, page 366, online under https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HwS ... us&f=false).

The ‘enlarged Jewish population’ was estimated by Ro'i et al at 2,345,500 in 1989 (as above, p. 378), vs. 1,450,211 ‘core Jews’ according to the 1989 Soviet census, a ratio of about 1:1.6.

Whether this ratio can also be applied regarding the year 1959 is doubtful, insofar as assimilation "gained momentum" after World War II and peaked in 1988 (according to Ro'I et al, as above p. 371, and the article under http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/printar ... px?id=2040), so in 1959 the rate of assimilation, specifically due to intermarriage, must have been lower than in 1988. The percentage of mixed-marriage children born to Jewish mothers increased from 19 % in 1959 to 43.2 % in 1989, and the percentage of mixed-marriage children among all children born to at least one Jewish parent increased from 32 % in 1959 to 60 % in 1989 (equality hypothesis) or from 41 % in 1959 to 70 % in 1989 (two-fold hypothesis), see Ro’i et al, as above, p. 373.

However, as there seems to be no estimate of the Soviet Union’s ‘enlarged Jewish population’ in 1959, I’ll apply the 1989 rate of 1.6:1 to the core Jewish population of about 2,268,000 ‘core Jews’ according to the 1959 Soviet census, which for the reasons explained is a “worst case” calculation unfavorable to my argument. This calculation yields an ‘enlarged Jewish population’ of 3,628,800 in 1959, including Jews who identified as Jews, Jews who identified as members of other ethnicities, and non-Jewish family members of Jews.

The difference between ‘enlarged Jewish population’ and the ‘core Jewish population’ is 1,360,800. Assuming a family of only three persons (two parents and one child), two thirds of this difference would be non-Jewish family members of assimilated Jews and one-third (453,600) would be assimilated Jews who identified as members of other ethnicities in the 1959 Soviet census.

The total of unassimilated and assimilated Soviet Jews living in 1959 on the territory of the Soviet Union within its June 1941 borders would thus be 2,268,000 + 453,600 = 2,721,600.

Now, how many assimilated and non-assimilated Jews were there on Soviet soil at the end of World War II?

For the core Jewish population of 2,268,000, historian Gert Robel (‘Sowjetunion’, in: Wolfgang Benz et al, Dimensionen des Völkermords, S. 499-560, here pp. 507 and 509) made a backward calculation assuming an annual growth rate of 0.8 %, which yields 2,014,000 Soviet Jews, to which he added 200,000 Polish Jews repatriated after 1945. Robel’s calculations were the following:

1. Jewish population of the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941
(a) Jewish population within the Soviet borders before 17.10.1939: 3,020,171
(b) Jewish population of the Polish territories annexed to the Soviet Union after 17.10.1939: 1,200,000
(c) Jewish refugees from the Polish areas annexed to or occupied by Germany: 300,000
(d) Jewish population of the Romanian territories annexed to the Soviet Union in 1940: 270,000
(e) Jewish population of Lithuania (including the Vilna and Memel regions), annexed to the Soviet Union in 1940: 250,000
(f) Jewish population of Letonia, annexed to the Soviet Union in 1940: 90,000
(g) Sum of (a) to (f) = Jewish population within the Soviet borders on 22 June 1941:
5,130,171 rounded to 5,100,000.

2. Jewish population of the Soviet Union in 1945
(a) Jewish population within the Soviet borders as of 22 June 1941, according to the Soviet census of 1959: 2,268,000
(b) Backward calculation to 1945 based on a growth factor of 0.8 % (Georges Wellers assumed a growth factor of ca. 1 %, which Robel considers too high): - 254,000
(c) Number of Soviet Jews in 1945:
2,014,000 rounded to 2,000,000
(d) Polish Jews in the Soviet Union who were repatriated after 1945: 200,000
(e) Sum of (c) + (d) = Number of Jewish survivors on Soviet soil in 1945:
2,214,000 rounded to 2,200,000

3. Jewish population losses between 1941 and 1945 in the Soviet Union within its borders as of 22 June 1941 = 1 (g) minus 2 (e):
2,916,171 rounded to 2,900,000

The calculated 1945 population of 2,014,000 is about 88.80% of the ‘core’ Jewish population of 2,268,000 according to the 1959 Soviet census. Applying this percentage to the 2,721,600 Jews calculated above yields a Soviet Jewish population of about 2,417,000 million in 1945, including both assimilated and non-assimilated Jews. Adding the 200,000 repatriated Polish Jews mentioned by Robel yields 2,617,000 Jews on Soviet soil at the end of World War II, out of an estimated population of 5,130,000 as of 22 June 1941. The delta of 2,483,000 would be the Jewish population loss in the USSR during World War II. Assuming that 300,000 Jews fell as soldiers of the Red Army or succumbed to famine and diseases behind the front line (Hans-Heinrich Nolte, Kleine Geschichte Rußlands, referred to under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 9350923482), this would mean 2,183,000 Jewish victims of Nazi genocide on the territory of the USSR within its borders as of 22 June 1941. Assuming that the 300,000 figure includes only ‘core’ Jews, and applying the 1:1.6 factor to increase it to about 480,000, would still leave 2,003,000 genocide victims.

Note that including assimilated Jews in the 1959 census figure but not in the 1939 figure of 3,020,171 is an apples-with-oranges comparison unfavorable to my argument. If the factor of 1:1.6 were applied to the 1939 population, that figure would increase to 4,832,274, including non-assimilated Jews, assimilated Jews and non-Jewish family members. Assuming that one-third of the delta of 1,812,103 were assimilated Jews, 604,034 such Jews would have to be added to the 1939 figure, yielding 3,624,205 Jews on Soviet territory in 1939. These 604,034 assimilated Soviet Jews would also have to be added to Robel’s figure of 5,130,171 Jews on Soviet territory as of 22 June 1941, yielding a total of 5,734,205, rounded to 5,734,000. Deducting the calculated postwar population of ca. 2,617,000 would yield a population loss of ca. 3,117,000 instead of the previously calculated 2,483,000. The former figure would be higher than the loss of ca. 2.9 million calculated by Robel. Deducting 480,000 war losses from 3,117,000 yields 2,637,000 Jewish victims of genocide, which is about the figure mentioned by Nolte. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Metapedia wrote:Some Jews died of natural causes also during the war. Assuming official population numbers, around half a million would have died of natural causes during the course of the war even if ignored by National Socialist Germany.
But they weren’t, and at least in territories where the Nazis had total control over the Jewish population it’s rather unlikely that any Jews would live long enough to die of natural causes. Assuming a reasonable maximum number of natural deaths (which would mostly have occurred among Jewish populations permanently or temporarily safe from the Nazis, in the latter case for the duration of such safety), I calculated in my answer under https://www.quora.com/If-you-were-Jewis ... ust-victim that about 5,371,000 Jews from the population loss of 5.7 million were excess deaths. Assuming that about half a million of these were deaths due to acts of war and privation resulting from war (a generous assumption as I know of no country other than the Soviet Union where a high number of Jewish war deaths occurred), this would still leave about 4,871,000 victims of the Nazi genocide.
Metapedia wrote: In many cases the estimated pre/post-war numbers of Jews in a country are argued to be incorrect due to factors such as the censuses used for these estimates occurring long before/after the war and ignoring large scale Jewish emigrations between these dates.
Nonsense. There were no large scale prewar Jewish emigrations outside the crazy world of W.N. Sanning.
Metapedia wrote:Other problems are argued double counting and unrealistically high birth rates in order to inflate the pre-war numbers.
Unfortunately Metapedia don’t inform their readers about what double-counting they have in mind. As to birthrates, even a growth rate (difference between births and deaths) as low as 0.8 % per year would have brought the Jewish population of Europe to almost 10 million by 1945, according to my aforementioned calculations. The difference in relation to the actual Jewish population of Europe in 1945 (ca. 3.8 million) would be about 6.2 million. Deducting the aforementioned half a million war dead would leave a population loss of about 5.7 million attributable to the Nazi genocide.
Metapedia wrote:The post-war numbers are argued to be too low due to causes such as Jews preferring to not reveal themselves as Jews in various censuses and registrations after the war as well as the census numbers in the Communist countries being unreliable for political reasons.
That’s also nonsense. What would have been the motivation for Jews not to reveal themselves as such after the war? There was some small-scale Stalinist persecution, but that ended long before the 1959 Soviet census. There are no "political reasons" I can think of that Soviet censors would have had to understate the number of Jews. The only reason that Jews would have had not to self-identify as Jews after the war would have been assimilation. But that has already been considered above regarding the Soviet Union.

The next paragraph of the Metapedia article is a summary of what was commented above, so I'll move right on to the following paragraph:
Metapedia wrote:Furthermore, regarding the official worldwide Jewish population estimates, they are now updated and state the argued loss from the Holocaust during the WWII years. However, Sanning argued that the Jewish populations outside the Soviet Union after this are stated to have increased rapidly in the first few decades after the war at a rate normally seen only in developing countries or in rural population. Since nearly everywhere in the world the Jews are almost completely urbanized and belong mostly to the middle and even the upper classes, both of which factors would lead one to expect at most only a low rate of population increase. This has been argued to indicate that something is very wrong.
It’s hard to understand what relevance claims about postwar birthrates are supposed to have on figures about wartime losses. Besides, who is supposed to have claimed such high birth rates? The study under http://www.jewishdatabank.org/studies/d ... ileID=3257 seems to be claiming the exact opposite:
Low birth rates and relatively high intermarriage rates have prevailed among some European Jewish communities since the late nineteenth century. After World War II, the US and several Western European countries experienced a prolonged rise in fertility, which did not occur in Eastern Europe. These trends were matched by the respective Jewish communities in each country, though at lower levels. Where the baby boom occurred, it generated large age cohorts born between 1945 and 1965, who in turn reached the age of procreation between the 1970s and the 1990s. An "echo effect" of more births might have been expected, but fertility rates, general and Jewish, decreased sharply since the 1970s and such "echo" was actually quite weaker than could be expected. Jews usually anticipated by several years these developments, resulting in lower birth rates across the board. Significant internal differentiation persisted according to religiosity and other social characteristics among Jewish populations, with Orthodox Jews generally maintaining higher fertility rates than other Jewish groups.
(Emphasis added.)

A figure at the end of this report is stated to show that, while it took 13 years to raise the world’s Jewish population from 11 to 12 million after World War II, another 40 years were required to raise it from 12 to 13 million. Then for a long time between since the 1970s there was zero population growth, and recently there was some recovery "mostly reflecting enhanced democratic increase in Israel". In the 13 years preceding the report, the world’s Jewish population is stated to have increased from 13 to 14 million.
Now, is the increase in the first 13 years after World War II (from 11 to 12 million, i.e. by 9.09 % of the former figure) supposed to reflect an extraordinarily high Jewish birthrate, considering that the there was a baby boom in the US and Western Europe which the Jewish population to some extent accompanied?

An increase of 9.09 % of the original population within 13 years means an increase of about 0.7 % per year. Even assuming the current mortality rate of an aging population like that of Germany (11.6 per thousand or 1.16 % per year according to http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/death_rate.html, way above the world average of 7.89 per thousand in 2014 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortality_rate, and corresponding to the world average in 1970-75 according to the same source), this would require an annual birth rate of just about 1.86 %, which is way below the world average in 1950-1955 (37.2 per thousand or 3.72 %) 1960-1965 (35.3 per thousand or 3.53 %) and 1965-1970 (34.9 per thousand or 3.49 %), according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate. As the world average rate is hardly the rate "normally seen only in developing countries or in rural population", Sanning is talking nonsense again.
Metapedia wrote:Sanning in a 2017 article provided updates on further research since the publication of his book. "In particular, newly available data about the emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union and its successor states are of interest in this regard. They indicate that Sanning was correct in assuming that Soviet post-war census data about the number of Jews who survived World War Two were unreliable. The number of Jews who have emigrated since the 1970s, plus the demographic collapse Jewry experienced after the war due to an extremely low birth rate, compels the conclusion that many more Jews survived the war in the USSR than previously assumed."
According to the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_Pos ... SR:.5B2.5D, about 1.6 million Jews and their family members emigrated from the former USSR between 1989 and 2006, in addition to 291,000 who had emigrated between 1970 and 1988. Of the total of 1,898,000 emigrants, 1,144,000 went to Israel, thereof 979,000 between 1986 and 2006.

However, it should be borne in mind who is considered a Jew under the Law of Return in Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return), which was the destination of most emigrants. The Law of Return (Hebrew: חֹוק הַשְׁבוּת‎, ḥok ha-shvūt) is Israeli legislation, passed on 5 July 1950, which gives Jews the right to live in Israel and to gain Israeli citizenship. In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jewish grandparent and non-Jewish people who were married to Jews, although they were not considered Jewish under Jewish law. Accordingly the above emigration figure for the years 1989-2006 includes both "non-Jewish" Jews in the sense of the Law of Return (i.e. people with one Jewish grandparent) and their non-Jewish family members.

The definition of people allowed to immigrate to Israel according to the Law of Return goes even further than the aforementioned definition of the ‘enlarged Jewish population’ in the USSR, as pointed out under http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/printarticle.aspx?id=19:
The estimates of the "enlarged" Jewish population do not include part of the total number of people eligible for aliyah according to the Israeli Law of Return, namely children and grandchildren of mixed marriage, all with their respective spouses, who live in households without any "core" Jewish member.

This means that, in setting "Jewish" post-Soviet emigration figures against the 1959 Soviet census figure, Sanning is indulging in a flagrant and highly dishonest apples-with-oranges comparison. Which, considering the fellow’s amply demonstrated dishonesty, is hardly surprising.

So the chief pseudo-demographic source that "scholarly revisionists" rely on according to Metapedia goes down the drain. I move on to the next section of Metapedia's demographics article.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2951#p108290:
Roberto wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:51 pm
Metapedia wrote:Sanning argued that the Jewish world population decreased by around 1.25 million during the time period of the Second World War and of this around one million died in Soviet areas from causes such as fighting in the Red Army or in Siberian labor camps (with uncertainties regarding these numbers in the hundreds of thousands).
Yeah, Siberian labor camps. To Sanning’s misfortune it is known quite precisely how many people perished in Siberian labor camps – about 2.5 million between 1930 and 1953, according to British historian Richard Overy, see the interview given to Spiegel magazine transcribed under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... UlFopgku1s. With about 200,000 Soviet Red Army soldiers killed in World War II, this would imply that 800,000 dead inmates of those "Siberian labor camps", about one third of the total, were Jews.

However, there is neither a reason why the Soviet regime should have directed its oppression disproportionately against Jews, no any evidence that it so did. As can be read under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _6747.html, in January 1942 there were 23,164 Jews in the Gulag, in January 1943 – 20,230, in January 1944 – 15,317, in January 1945 – 14,433, in January 1946 – 10,839, in January 1947 – 9,530. The following list shows the total numbers of Gulag inmates in these years, according to the excerpts from Richard Overy’s The Dictators under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... UlKzZgku1s, and the number and percentage of Jews among the Gulag's inmates:

Year_Total inmates_Thereof Jews_% of Jews
1942_1,415,596_23,164_1.64%
1943_983,974_20,230_2.06%
1944_663,594_15,317_2.31%
1945_715,506_14,433_2.02%
1946_746,871_10,839_1.45%
1947_808,839_9,530_1.18%

As one can see, the proportion of Jews among the Gulag’s inmates during the years 1942 to 1947 was consistently lower than the 2.59 % of the Soviet population on 22 June 1941 who were Jews.

Recorded deaths among Gulag inmates in these years, according to Overy, added up to 574,192. If the percentage of Jewish Gulag deaths corresponded to the percentage of Jewish Gulag inmates, the number of Jewish Gulag deaths in this period would have been 10,493. Even if Jews had been incarcerated and died in proportions corresponding to their proportion of the Soviet population, the number of Jewish deaths in the Gulag would just have been just 14,872. So it’s clear where Sanning can stick his "Siberian labor camps".
Metapedia wrote: The book Richard Korherr and his Reports calculated on the basis of Korherr’s data that the Jews lost approximately 1.2 million of their number during World War Two, some 750,000 of them in Germany’s sphere of influence.
That book must have been written by the idiot who claimed that Himmler tried to cheat Hitler as to the number of duly "processed" Jews. I’ll assume in this idiot’s benefit that he was not aware of the Höfle telegram, whose partial figures corroborate Höfle’s figure of 1,274,166 Jews allegedly deported to the "Russian East" from the General Government. And that he also never heard of partial deportation data corroborating Korherr’s figures, such as those mentioned in connection with Chelmno extermination camp in the judgment issued by the Landgericht Bonn on 30 March 1963 at the trial against Heinrich B. et al (Adalbert Rückerl, NS Vernichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher Strafprozesse, pages 288 ff., translation under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... UlTUpgku1s). And that it also didn’t occur to him to wonder where those ca. 2.5 million Jews mentioned by Korherr as having been lost to the European "stock" of Jews without having gone to other continents are supposed have gone to. And that he overlooked the 633,300 Jews "evacuated" in the "Russian territories" (if that were not already an obvious reference to their having been killed, such would follow from Korherr’s statement that "of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded", see my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... rherr.html).

Korherr was right in pointing out that this number was incomplete, by the way. The figures reported by the Einsatzgruppen add up to 562,616 killed (Raul Hilberg, Die Vernichtung der europäischen Juden, p.409). A report of Himmler’s to Hitler dated 29.12.1942, whose facsimile can be viewed under http://www.ns-archiv.de/krieg/sowjetuni ... tionen.php, mentioned another 363,211 Jews executed in August, September, October and November 1942. The sum of both documented figures, 925,827, exceeds Korherr’s figure of 633,300 by 292,527.
Metapedia wrote:German Rudolf stated in Lecture on the Holocaust that he holds to be probable that something like half a million Jews died in areas under German control.
363,211 Jews executed within four months in just some of the areas under German domination are mentioned in a single report of Himmler’s to Hitler, yet Rudolf babbles about "half a million" Jews killed in total. What a clown.
Metapedia wrote:Revisionist views on the number of Jews in German controlled areas
Sanning argued that no more than 3.5 million Jews were ever under German control during World War Two.
Sanning (who apparently would have his readers believe that the Germans did the Jews under their control hardly any harm, as he attributes most Jewish deaths to acts of war and those "Siberian labor camps") is full of it, as we have seen, is full of it. In his appraisal of the Generalplan Ost, Dr. Erhard Wetzel, the director of the Central Advisory Office on Questions of Racial Policy at the National Socialist Party (Leiter der Hauptstelle Beratungsstelle des Rassenpolitischen Amtes der NSDAP), mentioned 5 to 6 million Jews just in the areas that the Generalplan Ost referred to. And his writing leaves no room for doubt as to what was the intended fate of these 5 to 6 million Jews, see my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _2802.html.

The above sums up "Revisionist" attempts to provide an alternative account as to what happened to Europe’s Jews. Sanning’s "they had mostly left before the Nazis got there and the Nazis did little harm to those who remained" – BS still seems to be the closest the “Revisionists” have come to providing such account.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2951&start=10#p108299:
Roberto wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:49 pm
The next section of Metapedia’s "demographics" article is headed "Revisionist views on the fate of the Jews argued to be deported to the occupied Soviet Union". Commenting it is also quite enjoyable.
Metapedia wrote:Demographic estimates stating high numbers deported to the occupied Soviet Union (or killed at locations such as the Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka camps in the non-revisionist version) are based primarily on the Korherr Report and the Höfle Telegram. However, the correctness/authenticity of these numbers/documents have been questioned, as discussed in the article on the Korherr Report.
Regarding the Korherr Report no claim of forgery is made under http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Korherr_Report. Which is not surprising as it is the only document claiming that Jews deported to certain camps were thereafter taken to the "Russian East", and thus a straw that "Revisionists" desperately cling to in support of their "transit camp" nonsense. The correctness of Korherr’s figures had been addressed above.

The Höfle Telegram (which corroborates the figure of 1,274,166 Jews supposedly transported to the "Russian East" via the "camps in the General Government", and suggests that these camps were final destinations from which no "outbound" transports went anywhere) seems to be more inconvenient to "Revisionist" beliefs, hence the "doubts" about its authenticity mentioned under http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram.

The sources invoked as disputing the Höfle Report’s authenticity, needless to say, are all "Revisionist" sources. One is a CODOH article, the other two are books written by Mattogno, Graf and Kues (MGK).

MGK's book about Sobibór refers to the Höfle Telegram at various places, including on p. 22:
A very important document, published only in 2001, gives us precise information concerning the number of detainees deported to Sobibór up to the end of 1942.18 It is a radio message of 11 January 1943 which was sent by SS-Sturmbannführer Höfle, a subordinate of Odilo Globocnik, Head of Police and SS in the district of Lublin. It was addressed to Globocnik’s deputy, SS-Obersturmbannführer Heim. The message was intercepted and decoded by the British Secret Service, but the British could not interpret its contents. On the subject of Sobibór the text states that 101,370 persons had been moved to that camp up to the end of 1942. The message contains no indications regarding the fate of the deportees.
In section 9.4 of the Sobibór screed (pp. 311 ff.), MGK produce a lengthy lot of nonsense regarding the Korherr Report, the Höfle Telegram and the interpretations of both by historians, but they do not call the Höfle Telegram's authenticity into question.

That leaves MGK’s other publication invoked by Metapedia, their overlong response to the HC critique (available under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... caust.html and https://archive.org/details/BelzecSobib ... .ACritique) that is known among HC bloggers as the "Steaming Pile of Manure" (SPOM for short) and has been largely shredded in blog articles collected under the label "MGK’s SPOM" (http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 27s%20SPOM). The SPOM also mentions the Höfle Telegram at various places (e.g. on pp. 555f.), but in contains no question as to its authenticity, unless I missed something. And neither as concerns its accuracy, as is suggested by the following passage on p. 1035 (emphases added):
As shown by the Höfle document and other reliable data, and as acknowledged by Jules Schelvis, the number of Jews deported to Sobibór could at the most have been around 170,000.
It looks like the Metapedia authors don’t read their "Revisionist" scripture.
Metapedia wrote:Accepting the Korherr Report as generally correct, the revisionists Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, and Thomas Kues have in recent books described various other sources supporting the deportation of Jews to the occupied Soviet Union. This contradicts the politically correct version of the Holocaust according to which these Jews were killed or remained in camps in Poland but also raises the question of what happened to these Jews after the war.
For all their blather about sources supposedly "supporting the deportation of Jews to the occupied Soviet Union", MGK have provided no evidence that such deportation from Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka ever took place. They haven’t provided a single name of a deportee who was transited as they claim, even though (for the reasons explained above and under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... onist.html) such names should be all over the place and easy to find. MGK even admit to having no such evidence. In the SPOM’s "Epilogue", written by Jürgen Graf (whose verbiage as concerns me has been addressed in the blogs under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -best.html and http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... iving.html), one reads the following on page 1503:
Jürgen Graf wrote:The only chapter where our opponents could hope to come close to a draw was their fourth one, authored by Harrison and Romanov about the resettlement thesis. While we revisionists can easily prove that Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka were transit camps, we are unable to produce German wartime documents about the destination and the fate of the deportees.


In the highlighted period Graf didn’t write shit for once. More than seven decades after the events in question, and despite all their "research", MGK are unable to produce a single German wartime document from which the destination and fate of the supposedly "transited" deportees becomes apparent. Which, as they should be wading in such documents (plus abundant eyewitness testimony), for the reasons I explained above, is a confession that they have no case and are intellectually bankrupt. Needless to say, this confession blatantly contradicts Graf’s earlier claim that he and his authors can "easily prove that Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka were transit camps". For it these camps had been transit camps, "outbound" train records and other "outbound" documentation, documents about the arrival, receipt, accommodation and further processing of the deportees in the "Russian East", and eyewitness testimonies describing such "outbound" transports and the further fate of the deportees, would be all over the place. MGK are a bunch of sorry losers. As Jonathan Harrison put it at the end of his blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -here.html:
Why are MGK so lost, even in their own antisemitic milieu? The answer is surely contained in the fact that their 1554 pages offer no positive narrative for chumps or fellow travelers. There is no evidence of resettlement, as we will show in a forthcoming piece when we again deconstruct Kues' kindergarten. There is no show here, chumps. Time to move on.
Kues’ kindergarten, by the way, has also been deconstructed in the following blog articles, among others:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ws-in.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... in_14.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... in_15.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... in_16.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... in_17.html

Metapedia provide two quotes from MGK’s publications.
MGK wrote:It must be pointed out that of the less than 2 million Jews – some 423,000 of them non-Polish – who were deported to the Occupied Eastern Territories, a considerable percentage no doubt perished during the period 1942–1945 due to starvation, epidemics and various other causes. We remind our readers here of the staggering mortality ratios among the POWs in the east (on both the German and the Soviet side). [...] War-related hardships moreover did not end in 1945, as many people died in the immediate post-war era, especially in underdeveloped Eastern Europe, from epidemics, hunger and cold that was the result of collapsed infrastructure, destroyed agriculture and inadequate housing.
Yeah, a considerable percentage would have perished if the mentioned 2 million Jews had been deported from Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Auschwitz to the "Occupied Eastern Territories", as MGK baselessly claim. But the majority would have survived. Even in the Warsaw and Lodz ghettos, where respectively 83,000 and 45,000 people died of hunger and disease (see the quote from Hilberg under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... Up3jZgks74), the highest mortality rate was 1.49 % per month, and the net population loss (excess of deaths over births) was 1 % per month. At this rate, the supposed 2 million deportees would have been reduced by 36 % in the about 3 years between the first deportations and the end of World War II in Europe, but 72 % or 1,440,000 deportees or their descendants would have survived. Even if deportees had died at the same rate as did Soviet prisoners of war (see under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... Up84pgks74), i.e. if about 53 % of them had died (a highly improbable scenario as no ghetto had such death rates), there would still have been 940,000 survivors to tell the "true" story. Why has not a single one of these supposed survivors ever come forward to tell the "true" story of what had happened to him or her after reaching the aforementioned camps (which, by the way, would have entitled such person to claim compensation from the German Federal Republic)? Why can "Revisionists" not provide even a single name of any such survivor, while on the other hand the names of millions of victims (even assuming gross mistakes in Yad Vashem’s recording) have been established? Inquiring minds would like to know.

The next quote is just hilarious:
MGK wrote:While a number of the surviving deported Polish Jews may have been assimilated into the local Russian, Belorussian or Ukrainian Jewish communities, with which they shared much in common, or even managed to return to Poland and from there on to other countries in the west or to Israel, a large portion of them, together with the surviving deported Western Jews, were kept as prisoners behind the Iron Curtain and most likely deported to and hidden away in northern Russia or Siberia, so that Stalin could consolidate the myth of the extermination of Jews in "gas chambers".
Needless to say, MGK sucked this "were kept as prisoners behind the Iron Curtain …" crap out of their fingers. And as to Stalin’s wanting to consolidate the supposed "myth" or the Jews’ extermination, MGK obviously know precious little about Stalin and his policies regarding Jews. The Stalinist regime’s official stance was that all Soviet nationalities had suffered equally from the German invasion and occupation, so the last thing Stalin would have wanted was to grant the Jews a special place in the pantheon of Soviet citizens murdered by the Germans by pointing out that they had been targeted for total extermination and been killed in those oh-so-awful gas chambers (which were no more horrible than mass shootings or deliberate starvation, actually) in proportions largely exceeding the proportional losses among other Soviet nationalities. For further information about this Soviet policy see my Quora answer under https://www.quora.com/What-did-Stalin-t ... uehlenkamp and my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... eport.html.

The Metapedia authors add the following to their quotes of MGK:
Metapedia wrote:These Jews are argued to likely have been taken to camps they were never intended to leave (and likely to camps outside the normal Gulag camp system from which some people returned and therefore not included in the ordinary Gulag documentation).
Here we have a conspiracy theory dreamed up by "Revisionists" when confronted with the fact that the detailed records of Stalin’s labor camps and colonies contain no trace of even a fraction of these supposedly incarcerated Jewish deportees and point to the proportion of Jewish Gulag inmates having been even smaller than the proportion of Jews in the Soviet population. The Soviets, who meticulously recorded everything they did, and whose labor camps and colonies have been extensively researched on by historians since the demise of the Soviet Union, are supposed to have hidden the bulk of 2 million Jewish deportees "outside the normal Gulag camp system" without leaving a shred of evidence pointing to their existence. And what is supposed to have become of all those hidden mostly Polish Jews after Stalin died and most Gulag prisoners were released? Are they supposed to have been kept in hidden confinement until they died by the far more humane successor regimes of the Soviet Union, without anybody noticing? This utter nonsense is almost tantamount to claiming that all those Jews were gobbled up by flying saucers (along with all other evidence that would have made it possible to trace their way from Nazi "transit" camps to those supposed hidden Soviet camps).

The Metapedia authors think that MGK have something to show for their absurd claim, however:
Metapedia wrote:The authors also stated evidence in support for and replied to various objections to this theory such as large scale deportations of whole peoples and large scale deaths in labor camps being common under Stalin's regime.
Yep, except that those "large scale deportations of whole peoples and large scale deaths in labor camps" are well documented and have been extensively studied by researchers like Anne Applebaum. And that the overall death rate of the Gulag camps, as pointed out by British historian Richard Overy (see quotes from his book The Dictators under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... UqEQJgks74) was just about 15 %, versus about 40 % in Nazi concentration camps (not counting Jews killed upon arrival at the dual-purpose camps Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek).
Metapedia wrote:It is further suggested that Zionist leaders likely were aware of this occurring but were silent because the Holocaust story and Soviet support were needed for the creation of Israel.
Another hollow conspiracy theory, strictly for the birds.

Metapedia’s last straw as concerns Jews supposedly deported to the occupied territories concerns the Soviet prisoners of war:
Metapedia wrote:Germany is estimated to have captured around 5.7 million Soviet soldiers. The imprisonment of these would from certain aspects (such as certain logistic aspects) have been a larger issue than the less than 2 million Jews (possibly much less) which revisionists argue were deported to the occupied Soviet Union.
Well, imprisoning all those Soviet prisoners of war was an issue due to callous lack of preparation (which was one of the reasons, though not the main reason, why Soviet prisoners of war died like flies especially in 1941/42, see my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... alism.html). And the argument is not that the Germans could not have confined all those Jews in ghettos and camps the occupied Soviet territories. The argument is that there is not a shred of evidence that they so did, even though such evidence would exist in abundance if the "transit camp" theory were not just hollow humbug.

Incidentally, the Germans managed to transport a large portion of those 5.7 million Soviet prisoners of war to occupied Poland or the Reich, and also managed to transport millions of non-Jewish civilian forced laborers to the Reich. So why – as "Revisionists" also argue according to Metapedia, see above – should they not have been able to transport about 2.5 million Jews (the currently accepted number of victims, see my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... thods.html) to camps where mass extermination is known to have taken place?

Also, note the contradiction in "Revisionist" argumentation: on the one hand transporting Jews to those camps is supposed to have been a major or even insurmountable logistical problem. On the other hand transporting the same number of Jews to the occupied Soviet territories is supposed to have been no big deal. And one finds both one and the other bullshit on the same Metapedia page.
Any comments, Wurm?

Any evidence (read: conjectures) provided by MGK in support of their "Stalin killed them" (do they really claim that, by the way?) that isn't shredded by what I wrote?

Please feel free to quote it.

And don't forget to answer the questions I asked you in my previous post on this thread.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

You didn't read my second post, been-there?

That's understandable, as it further deconstructs your articles of faith.

If you're too lazy to read, how about helping Wurm answer the questions I asked him?

These questions:

1. Please prove, according to your "Revisionist" standards of evidence, that Stalin was a "genocidal mass murderer". Tell us what genocides he's supposed to have committed and how many lives those genocides are supposed to have claimed in your book. Then show us all evidence supporting your claims that you would accept if Nazi crimes were at issue. I'm curious about what you can come up with.

2. Please tells us how many Jews from the Polish territories annexed to Germany, the Generalgouvernement, the Reich and Western Europe (an order of magnitude will do) are supposed to have been deported to the occupied territories of the USSR (the Reichskommisariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration), where they would have been within Stalin's reach for those postwar genocidal deportations that MGK fantasize about. Then provide some evidence that such deportations actually took place.

3. What you consider evidence that "Stalin killed them", namely the American Jewish Yearbook quotes you provided, are renderings of accounts or reports received by the AJW, which were not confirmed as the AJY even expressly states in one case ("It remained impossible to confirm these accounts."). They are thus as irrelevant as reports and newspaper articles about supposed Iraqi weapons of mass destruction prior to the 2003 US invasion of Iraq (which turned out to be bullshit), or as claims by Soviet dissidents about tens of millions of Gulag victims (same here), unless solid evidence supporting those accounts and reports is provided. So please tell us, what evidence (if any) do MGK provide showing that the accounts and reports mentioned in your AJY quotes are accurate? How many Jews are supposed to have been deported and perished according to such accounts and reports? And why do you accept the AJY's rendering of unconfirmed accounts and reports as evidence that Stalin had millions of Jews you cannot account for killed? Would you accept the AJY's rendering of accounts and reports received about Nazi mass killings of Jews as evidence that such mass killings actually took place? Inquiring minds would like to know.

PS: In case you should understand that Wurm's AJY quotes don't prove anything, you can skip the questions under 3.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by rollo the ganger »

been-there wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:57 pm
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No. I didn't read the "wall of text" Roberto posted in the other thread either. What I did do is register a complaint to the moderators to try and stop it.

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