More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

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Roberto
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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by Roberto »

Meanwhile I've got the first documents in German for good old "Lily". All it took was a little googling.

1.) Brack's letter to Himmler, 23 June 1942

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... -205#p.1

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... NO-205#p.2

2.) Greiser's letter to Himmler, 1 May 1942

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... 246%22#p.1

3.) Greiser's letter to Himmler, 21.11.1942

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... 942%22#p.1

4.) Himmler’s report to Hitler, 29.12.1942

http://www.ns-archiv.de/krieg/sowjetuni ... onen.php

5.) Himmler's April 1943, Kharkov speech

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... 19%22#p.1

6.) Himmler’s Posen speech, 4 October 1943

Written text:
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... 19%22#p.33

"Judenevakuierung": pp. 64-67 (pp. 95-99 of the Photostat).

Audio recording:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Himm ... ,_1943.ogg

Also of interest:

7.) Katzmann Report (30 June 1943), cover letter

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/docume ... mann#p.1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzmann_ ... t-(1).jpg


Verstehst Du was in diesen Dokumenten geschrieben steht, "Lily"?

Und was der Reichsführer in der Tonaufnahme sagt?

Oder hast Du immer noch kein Deutsch gelernt?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).


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been-there
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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by been-there »

Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:25 pm
been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:49 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:08 pm
b) find me one name of a "transited" Jew...
Hmmmm?

Doesn't the same 'absence of evidence' logic apply to the exterminationalist narrative?

b) find me one name of a "mass-gassed" Jew...
An evidence-backed name of a Jew murdered at an extermination camp? That's not difficult. Just look up the blog articles collected under the label
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 20victims .

Or go to the German Federal Archives' search engine under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/directory.html.de and run a search for "Chelmno" under "Todesort" (place of death). You'll get 5,182 names, with dates of birth, last domicile in Germany, date of deportation and places to which they were deported before reaching their final destination, if they were not deported directly. Run the same search for "Sobibor" and you'll get 4,494 names. And there are just German Jews. How come there's information tracing them to these lovely places but no information suggesting their return or onward transport from there?
Wow! You really don't get it do you!!? :o

Image

You are being asked to provide a name of a single person who we have positive proof was gassed in a mass-gassing in an alleged 'extermination camp'. You are NOT being asked for a name of a person who we have captured records was transited to a camp and then no known captured records regarding onward transit, nor more information about. :? :roll: (Sheesh!)

Image
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
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or they cease being honest"
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Roberto
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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by Roberto »

been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:46 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:25 pm
been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:49 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:08 pm
b) find me one name of a "transited" Jew...
Hmmmm?

Doesn't the same 'absence of evidence' logic apply to the exterminationalist narrative?

b) find me one name of a "mass-gassed" Jew...
An evidence-backed name of a Jew murdered at an extermination camp? That's not difficult. Just look up the blog articles collected under the label
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 20victims .

Or go to the German Federal Archives' search engine under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/directory.html.de and run a search for "Chelmno" under "Todesort" (place of death). You'll get 5,182 names, with dates of birth, last domicile in Germany, date of deportation and places to which they were deported before reaching their final destination, if they were not deported directly. Run the same search for "Sobibor" and you'll get 4,494 names. And there are just German Jews. How come there's information tracing them to these lovely places but no information suggesting their return or onward transport from there?
Wow! You really don't get it do you!!? :o

You are being asked to provide a name of a single person who we have positive proof was gassed in a mass-gassing in an alleged 'extermination camp'. You are NOT being asked for a name of a person who we have captured records was transited to a camp and then no known captured records regarding onward transit, nor more information about. :? :roll: (Sheesh!)
You haven't been paying attention.

In the blog articles collected under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... %20victims you'll find several examples of the "positive proof" you are talking about.

And as to those of whom nothing more was heard after they entered one of those lovely places, the conclusion is warranted that they met what was the fate of just about everyone who arrived at these places, according to all known evidence.

Now, how do you explain that there's information that allows for tracing named individuals (and many more whose approximate number is known but whose names have not yet been established, especially from among the Jews of the Generalgouvernement) to the mentioned places, but no information suggesting their return or onward transport from there?

As to Höss, he simply mixed up June 1941 with June 1942 as the date of Himmler's order he referred to. See under http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... k-paradox/.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

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Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:41 pm
been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:46 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:25 pm
been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:49 pm

Hmmmm?
Doesn't the same 'absence of evidence' logic apply to the exterminationalist narrative?
b) find me one name of a "mass-gassed" Jew...
An evidence-backed name of a Jew murdered at an extermination camp? That's not difficult. Just look up the blog articles collected under the label
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 20victims .

Or go to the German Federal Archives' search engine under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/directory.html.de and run a search for "Chelmno" under "Todesort" (place of death). You'll get 5,182 names, with dates of birth, last domicile in Germany, date of deportation and places to which they were deported before reaching their final destination, if they were not deported directly. Run the same search for "Sobibor" and you'll get 4,494 names. And there are just German Jews. How come there's information tracing them to these lovely places but no information suggesting their return or onward transport from there?
Wow! You really don't get it do you!!? :o

You are being asked to provide a name of a single person who we have positive proof was gassed in a mass-gassing in an alleged 'extermination camp'. You are NOT being asked for a name of a person whom we have captured records of stating they were transited to a camp and then no known captured records regarding onward transit, nor more information about. :? :roll: (Sheesh!)
You haven't been paying attention.
In the blog articles collected under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... %20victims you'll find several examples of the "positive proof" you are talking about.

And as to those of whom nothing more was heard after they entered one of those lovely places, the conclusion is warranted that they met what was the fate of just about everyone who arrived at these places, according to all known evidence.

Now, how do you explain that there's information that allows for tracing named individuals (and many more whose approximate number is known but whose names have not yet been established, especially from among the Jews of the Generalgouvernement) to the mentioned places, but no information suggesting their return or onward transport from there?

As to Höss, he simply mixed up June 1941 with June 1942 as the date of Himmler's order he referred to. See under http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... k-paradox/.
Roberto, discussing with you reminds me so much of discussions I've had with religious people arguing for their faith, or for some particular guru.
Now you tell me I'm not paying attention! :D Is that conclusion arrived at because I don't agree with you?

I think the reality is that you currently can't see anything beyond what in your current belief-system you have decided to accomodate and accept as being 'true'.

We all have subconscious mental filters that filter out anything that doesn't conform to what we have already accepted as real and true. We all have that, more or less. Its only a question of to what degree we are fixed in our views.
It appears to me that you have decided there is only one explanation, only one reality. That is why I genuinely see what you are doing as psychotic in the literal meaning of that word. I don't mean that as an insult.

Did you not understand the truth that the diagram demonstrated? Whether a shadow of one single object is perceived as square or as circular or as triangular depends on the perspective of the beholder. Do you agree?
You appear to me to be a person arguing that the object is a particular shape because you are ‘choosing’ to see only one shadow cast by that.

Image

Now, you have again provided 'evidence' of transits.
That is ALL it is evidence of: 'Transits'.
It is ONLY evidence of movements of people by railway train. It is NOT 'evidence' of anything else.
This is so obvious I genuinely am in wonder that you can't acknowledge this basic simple fact.

There is what happens. And then there is what we make it mean. These are two distinct aspects of human experience.
You are confusing the two as being one and the same. You think your 'meaning' of what the train departure lists record, is the same as what they actually state. You think a movement of a specific number of people on a train 'means' mass-gassing of the same specific number of people.
The reality in this case is that we ONLY 'KNOW' that we have records of train movements to certain destinations.
We DO NOT have ANY ‘EVIDENCE’ of a single named person being gassed in a so-called ‘extermination centre’.

Now... They may very well have been gassed at these camps.
They may have been shot.
Maybe they were steamed to death.
Or maybe they were electrocuted.
Or maybe they were transited to other camps.
It maybe in the case of Treblinka they were walked across the shallow Bug river and marched into obscurity in the Russian occupied zone.
These are all speculations. ALL of these speculations are unevidenced. NONE of these speculations have ANY contemporary documentary evidence to support them, nor ANY forensic or empirical EVIDENCE to support them.

(I'm trying to say the same thing in different ways in the hope that you might eventually see the reality here.)

What you are persistently arguing for is only a belief-system that is not supported by any evidence that can be empirically tested. Do you see?

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Last edited by been-there on Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

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been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:03 pm
What you are persistently arguing for is only a belief-system that is not supported by any evidence that can be empirically tested. Do you see?
Sure , we are all waiting to see the massive amount of evidence to support deniers fantasies

please enlighten us ,

From the thousands germans that worked in the concentration camps how many deny mass killing took place ?
From the thousand polish workers and near by villages - how many support your claims ?
From the ten of thousands of survivors how many say they where merely work camps ?
From the thousand tons of documents how many support deniers fantasies ?
been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:03 pm
It maybe in the case of Treblinka they were walked across the shallow Bug river and marched into obscurity in the Russian occupied zone.
Strange that not one of some 800,000 people never tried to contact his relatives , to claim lost property or compansation from the germans , dont you think - or does it not ring an alarm bells in your ears ?


`

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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by been-there »

onetruth wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:13 am
been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:03 pm
What you are persistently arguing for is only a belief-system that is not supported by any evidence that can be empirically tested. Do you see?
Sure , we are all waiting to see the massive amount of evidence to support deniers fantasies

...[snip]...
been-there wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:03 pm
It maybe in the case of Treblinka they were walked across the shallow Bug river and marched into obscurity in the Russian occupied zone.
Strange that not one of some 800,000 people never tried to contact his relatives, to claim lost property or compansation from the germans , dont you think - or does it not ring an alarm bells in your ears ?
Wow! You didn't understand anything I wrote. :o

Quite amazing.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by Roberto »

Another of been-there's self-projecting sermons sprinkled with ad hominem. The fellow is really a bore.

As usual I'll ignore the bullshit and focus on what arguments on the subject (if any) he has.
been-there wrote: Roberto, discussing with you reminds me so much of discussions I've had with religious people arguing for their faith, or for some particular guru.
Now you tell me I'm not paying attention! :D Is that conclusion arrived at because I don't agree with you?

I think the reality is that you currently can't see anything beyond what in your current belief-system you have decided to accomodate and accept as being 'true'.

We all have subconscious mental filters that filter out anything that doesn't conform to what we have already accepted as real and true. We all have that, more or less. Its only a question of to what degree we are fixed in our views.
It appears to me that you have decided there is only one explanation, only one reality. That is why I genuinely see what you are doing as psychotic in the literal meaning of that word. I don't mean that as an insult.

Did you not understand the truth that the diagram demonstrated? Whether a shadow of one single object is perceived as square or as circular or as triangular depends on the perspective of the beholder. Do you agree?
You appear to me to be a person arguing that the object is a particular shape because you are ‘choosing’ to see only one shadow cast by that.
Nothing so far, just some attempts at insult. Maybe below.

Yes, here is something that more or less qualifies as an argument on the subject:
been-there wrote:Now, you have again provided 'evidence' of transits.
No, I have asked been-there to provide evidence that there were any transits. For the evidence I know doesn't suggest any transits via the places known to history as extermination camps. It clearly points to the people taken there having ended up there and been killed there.
been-there wrote:That is ALL it is evidence of: 'Transits'.
It is ONLY evidence of movements of people by railway train. It is NOT 'evidence' of anything else.
This is so obvious I genuinely am in wonder that you can't acknowledge this basic simple fact.
Train movements to certain places known from other evidence to have been mass killing sites prove more than just movements of people by train. Evidence to movements of people by train from these camps would suggest that the camps in question were not what history considers them to be and there may be something wrong with the evidence on which historians and criminal investigators based their conclusions regarding these places. So it would also be more than just evidence of movements of people by railway train.
been-there wrote:There is what happens. And then there is what we make it mean. These are two distinct aspects of human experience.
You are confusing the two as being one and the same. You think your 'meaning' of what the train departure lists record, is the same as what they actually state. You think a movement of a specific number of people on a train 'means' mass-gassing of the same specific number of people.
That's utter nonsense, actually. The train records on their own don't mean mass gassing. But they do in connection with other evidence.
been-there wrote:The reality in this case is that we ONLY 'KNOW' that we have records of train movements to certain destinations.
No, we also know what these "certain destinations" were all about and what happened to people there. Not from train records alone, but from train records in connection with other evidence.
been-there wrote:We DO NOT have ANY ‘EVIDENCE’ of a single named person being gassed in a so-called ‘extermination centre’.
Actually that follows from a) evidence that a person was transported to a certain place, b) evidence that that place was an extermination center where just about all arrivals were gassed and c) absence of evidence that said person ever left in any direction from such place. And in some cases there is more. There is the testimony of survivors who arrived along with certain individuals and saw them disappear to what they later learned were gas chambers (be it from first-hand observation or from what other inmates or guards told them), never to be seen again. Such examples are provided in the blog articles collected under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 20victims , which been-there obviously didn't bother to look up, so I'll quote from some of these articles below.
Guta was born in 1933, Abus in 1938. They were thus about 9 and 4 years old on 5 October 1942, when together with their parents, their grandparents they arrived at Treblinka extermination camp in a transport from the Polish city of Czestochowa. The arriving deportees were separated, men on one side, women and children on the other. Oskar Strawczynski was selected as a worker on account of his tinsmith skills, while his parents, wife and children were taken to "Camp 2", from where they never returned. What had become of them Strawczynski didn't take long to realize, the details of how people were killed in gas chambers in "Camp 2" and their bodies disposed of being later revealed to him by fellow inmates.

The source of the above information about the fate of Oskar Strawczynski's family is Oskar Strawczynski's memoir, the translation of which from Yiddish is partially transcribed after the aforementioned book, together with an introduction and biographical note from the same book, in my RODOH post # 11612. This is how Oskar Strawczynski, in his memoir written in a forest hideout during the spring and summer of 1944, described the last he saw of his loved ones:
It was the day after Sukkoth, October 5, 1942. The morning was bright and sunny. Although utterly exhausted after 24 hours in the tightly packed cattle cars, we shivered with terror when the train stopped and we heard frightful shouts: "Out! Out! …" Whips fly over our heads … In the eyes of my wife I recognize that finally even she has begun to believe the horrible rumors about the gas factory beyond Malkinia. I can see that now she regrets not having agreed to my plan to hide with the children in our neighbor’s hideout. She could not bring herself to believe all the malicious talk. She had wanted to believe that as long as we were together, no evil could reach her or our dear children.
We run out as fast as we can to avoid the whips lashing overhead and find ourselves on a long, narrow platform, crowded to capacity. All familiar faces – neighbors and acquaintances. The dust so tremendous, it obscures the sunlight. A smell of charred flesh stifles the breath. I catch a glimpse of the mountains of clothing, shoes, bedding and all kinds of wares that can be seen over the fence. But there is no time to think … The dense mass of people is pushed toward and jammed through a gate.
At this moment I have just one thought, not to lose my dearest ones in all this chaos. I succeed in keeping together with my wife, my two beautiful children, my mother and father. Little do I know that these are our last moments together, that behind the gate we would be torn apart and we would never see one another again.
[…]
Beyond the gate, we find ourselves in quite a large square with barracks on two sides. Opposite the fence and the gateway through which we had passed is a fence with a small entrance in the corner. This is the gate to the "Avenue of Death", which leads to the "baths" in Camp 2. Down this avenue, completely naked, they took their last walk: my dear wife and children, father, mother, brothers and sisters, together with millions of Jewish men and women. They never came out of the "bath". Their sacred bodies were heaped on stretchers and thrown into the infernal fires.
Later, when I was working on the rooftops of Treblinka, I had many opportunities to watch the last walk of our naked, unfortunate people: Mothers holding their little ones in the arms, older children at their sides, young girls with their hair already shorn, covering their breasts with their hands; or several together, arms linked, all running as quickly as possible through the row of Germans and Ukrainians, who laugh at them and mock them. Quite often, one or another of the victims was struck on the head with a whip or rifle butt and collapsed in a stream of blood. Those were horrible scenes from hell.
I return to the moment when we entered the so-called Transport Square. As we take our first steps, we hear shouts that freeze our blood. I stop thinking or feeling. We know only one thing. These are our last moments together. The shouts become louder and more penetrating: "Men to one side, women to the other."
We are completely confused by the lightning speed and terrible noise. I do not, I cannot, say a single word, not even a final farewell to my loved ones. I just hear the sigh of my beloved wife and her last words: "That’s it." No one can know how much despair and anguish those words contained. To me, they are the abyss of sorrow. I still hear those words ringing in my ears and I will surely not forget them to the last moments of my life.
Writing these words, I once again relive the sorrow of our parting. I cannot express the feelings raging within me. Fresh tears well up and the warm forest ground soaks up the hot stream from my eyes.
But there, on that sorrowful transport square, there is no time for tears or feelings. I scarcely have time to hand my wife the carefully hidden blanket for the children. A brutal hand grips my shoulder and I am hurled to the other side of the square. I manage to stay with my gentle father. The place is packed with people. On one side are women and small children; on the opposite side, men, forced to kneel. In the middle there are SS men, Ukrainians with weapons in their hands, as well as a group of about 40 men with red armbands. These are Jews, the detachment of "Reds." In Treblinka slang, they are called the "Hevra Kadisha" [Burial Society]
Kapo Jurek, the leader of the "Reds", had been a Warsaw rickshaw driver so corrupt and debauched, no deed was too foul for him. This brute would not hesitate to take aside a girl, already naked, on her march to the "bath". Promising to save her, he would do the worst, and then push her back into the line. He dressed elegantly, as that sort of person could easily afford to be in Treblinka. He works his whip on Jewish heads frequently and with gusto. As foul and corrupt as he was, his language was even worse. The vernacular of the Warsaw underworld was nothing new in Treblinka. There were great artists in that field, but no one could surpass Jurek. In short, he was quite a notable member of Treblinka’s aristocracy. Most of the "Reds" were recruited from the Warsaw underworld and did not fall short of their Kapo.
Most prominent among all in the square is a German officer, a stout man with a trimmed beard, mounted on a beautiful brown horse. He moves haughtily on his horse in the middle of the square. At a certain point, he turns towards the kneeling men and shouts: "Craftsmen, out!" A number of men step forward. Most of them, however, are sent back. Only a few are taken aside, where an SS man makes a further selection, and divides the remaining men into groups of three. I am kneeling beside my father. My mind is completely blank. No feeling, not a thought. I do not even say a single word to my father.
Among the men with the red armbands, I notice a familiar face. At first I cannot recall who he is, but then I recognize him. It is Aaron Berliner, a worker from the Czestochowa Jewish Community. He too has noticed me. He motions me to come over to him. I stand up, take my father's hand and try to take my bundle as well. He orders me to leave my bundle, and orders my father to kneel as before. Aaron leads me to the mounted German. The German looks me over and asks: "What’s your trade?" "Tinsmith," I say. He motions me toward the selected group, to which Aaron leads me. Now I am completely alone, also parted from my father, without a kiss, without a single farewell …
The group grows to about 60 men, no women. A man of about 30 approaches us. He is tall and broad with strong muscular legs and black hair, a young giant. This is Kapo Rakowski. He shouts a command and leads us away in military formation. As we march through the remaining mass of people, I scan the women’s side. Perhaps I can catch a last glimpse of my loved ones; perhaps I will see my two little angels again. I do not find them; probably they are in the barracks.
We are led to an enormous square, piled with mountains of bundles. In the distance is a tall embankment on which a watchman saunters back and forth, his rifle at the ready. From behind the embankment, thick smoke bursts forth as if from a volcano.
[…]
The crowd passes through and there is silence for a few minutes. Suddenly a smothered mass scream is heard from the distance. "Ah-ah-ah…" The scream does not last long; it becomes weaker and weaker until it dies away. I know instinctively that this is the last cry of the unfortunate, condemned victims, among them my own, my loved ones. Again I break into hysterical tears.
After every transport I heard this same last cry, which makes by blood run cold.
Like other survivors separated from their families upon arrival in an extermination camp, Oskar Strawczynski didn't see his wife, children and parents die in the gas chambers. But there could be no doubt for him that they were dead, because he never saw them again after they were taken to "Camp 2", because he saw the smoke of the fires burning in "Camp 2" and smelled the stench of burning flesh, and because fellow inmates who had worked in "Camp 2" later described to him what he briefly mentioned in the above-quoted passage and later in more detail, i.e. how the people taken to "Camp 2" were killed and their bodies disposed of:
While we in Camp I were busy building and beautifying, the work of exhuming and burning the bodies of the first victims of the Warsaw ghetto continued intensively in Camp 2. There were a few tremendously huge mass graves, each one filled with tens of thousands of murdered people. The layers of corpses were covered with chlorine. At the beginning, the chlorine used to arrive in wagonloads. The bodies were now being dug out and burnt in order to erase the evidence. It was not an easy job. For many months, three bulldozers growled away from 4 o'clock in the morning until nightfall. The work went on with great intensity, in two shifts. The bulldozers would constantly dig up earth mixed with body parts. The body parts had to be carefully picked out and taken on wooden carriers to be burnt in the great ovens. When one of the mass graves was emptied, the earth was replaced and carefully smoothed over, to give the appearance that nothing had ever been there. The Germans would celebrate by bringing whiskey and drinking a toast – "Until the last Jew" – and would finish up with a three-gun salute.
The graves could never be emptied entirely, because blood mixed with water accumulated at the bottom. Motorized pumps were set up to draw it out. However, they could never manage to drain the bottom few meters, and so the graves were simply covered over.
Over in Camp 2, there was also the bath … It was a large, concrete building standing on a cement platform. On its roof, visible from a distance, was a wooden Star of David. Running through the middle of the building was a corridor. The entrance was covered with a red curtain. Off the corridor were doors leading to small cubicles into which the arrivals from the transport were introduced. Outside, over the platform were large openings covered by panels hinged at the top and fastened with steel bands. Inside the cubicles, smooth tiles covered the slightly slanted floors and halfway up the walls. On the ceiling were mounted a few shower-heads. There was also a small window in the middle of the ceiling [of each cubicle].
As mentioned before, the people leave all their belongings in Camp 1. Everyone is undressed there. The women, already naked, are seated on a long bench and their hair is cut off. This is accomplished by about 40 barbers. The hair is then cleaned with steam, using a steam kettle brought especially for this purpose. The hair is then packed in bales, and sent out along with the clothing and other wares.
The victims come into Camp 2 already naked and shorn, and are immediately squeezed into the cubicles. There is no more division. Men, women, and children are all pressed together in the small cubicles so tightly that this alone would be enough to suffocate them. The doors are hermetically sealed, and the motors start to work. The air from inside is sucked out, and fumes from burnt gasoline are forced in. The cries from inside can be heard for about 10 minutes, and then it becomes silent. The entire process, from the arrival at the camp to the oven, lasts only about half an hour. Most of the victims in the cubicles start to hemorrhage.
A German controls the progress of the "work" through the little window in the ceiling. When he is sure that everyone inside is dead, he opens the side panels, and the corpses fall out onto the cement platform. An elderly Jew from Czestochowa, known as "the dentist", checks the bodies for gold or metal teeth, which he pulls out. The bodies are then piled onto stretchers and carried to the oven, where they are flung into the fire and burned. The blood that has collected in the cubicles streams out into specially dug ditches.
The "bath" contained 10 cubicles: four big ones and six smaller ones.
As I mentioned before, we in Camp 1 were strictly forbidden to enter Camp 2. If anyone crossed over into Camp 2 by accident, that's where he had to remain; there was no return to Camp 1. I received the information about the arrangements and procedures in Camp 2 mainly from Herszel Jablkowski, a solid and decent man, with whom I worked for many months in the workshop; he as a [black]smith and I as a tinsmith. He arrived at Treblinka on June 18, 1942, a considerable time before the first transports. According to him, the first transport arrived on Tisha B’Av in 1942 (July 23). He participated in digging the first mass grave. At that time, there was no bulldozer. Later, as a smith, he was employed in building the "bath". It was all one camp then. The day before the first transport arrived, Camp 1 and Camp 2 were divided. As a skilled tradesman, Jablkowski was sent to Camp 1. I also received some information about Camp 2 from Szymon Goldberg, a carpenter from Radomsko, who worked in Camp 2 for four months. He escaped during the uprising and we met in the forest 10 months later.
Oskar Strawczynski's above-quoted descriptions of what he experienced himself as an inmate in "Camp 1", and of what he learned from Jablkowski and Goldberg about procedures in "Camp 2", are generally accurate. His description of the gas chamber building's features, for instance, tallies with descriptions provided by other eyewitnesses (inmates, Ukrainian guards or SS supervisors) independently of Strawczynski. His express mention of three "bulldozers" (probably a mistaken translation of the Yiddish term used by Strawczynski to describe the excavators shown on photographs taken by Treblinka’s second-in-command Kurt Franz - corroborates and is corroborated by Alex Bay's analysis of Kurt Franz’s photographs in Bay's article The Reconstruction of Treblinka, namely the following conclusion (my emphasis):
The most basic fact that can be determined from the ground photos is that there were two, and probably three excavators in use at Treblinka. (see Figure 40
).

And it is noteworthy that Strawczynski and his sources were among the few witnesses to mass murder in Treblinka who realized that the gassing was done with gasoline exhaust and not – as described by several other Treblinka witnesses – with diesel exhaust.

[...]

Thus the only argument that "Revisionists" might have to dismiss Strawczyinski’s account as a collection of lies and Strawczynski as a "lie-witness" ("Revisionists" are fond of such idiotic word concoctions) would be some evidence that Strawczyinski was a person prone to telling lies, and moreover a liar so degenerately immoral as to falsely claim the murder of his wife and his two little kids. Is there such evidence?

The best place to find such evidence would be an assessment of Strawczyinski's testimony at a trial held before a court of a constitutional state according to a constitutional state's defendant-friendly procedural rules, in which such court as well as prosecutors and defense attorneys had the opportunity to gain a first-hand impression of Strawczyinski as a witness and to cross-examine him as they considered necessary. Oskar Strawczyinski testified as a witness at the trial of Kurt Franz and others before the Düsseldorf District Court. So, what does that court's judgment tell us about Oskar Strawczyinski behavior when testifying and his reliability as a witness?

I translated the following excerpts from the judgment (emphases are mine):

[...]

These are not the only mentions of Oskar Strawczyinski in the judgment, but I think they are sufficient to show that the court had a most favorable impression of this witness as an objective and fair man who differentiated between the horrors he had experienced and the gentler behavior of some SS-men, namely the defendant Suchomel. Strawczyinski’s care in distinguishing between what he had seen or heard himself and what he had learned from others also shows in the above-quoted excerpts from his memoir, in which he expressly mentioned the sources of what he knew about "Camp 2".

So what we have is the memoir of someone who everything indicates to have been a highly reliable witness, which includes a first-hand description of how that witness's loved ones were separated from him and taken to a place from which they never returned, which was part of a camp that all known evidence – including but not limited to that witness’s memoir and testimony and to other evidence listed in my VNN posts nos. 172, 194,777 and 1825 and in previous posts on this blogspot – shows to have been an extermination camp for Jews, a place where Jewish people were taken for no other purpose than to be killed there, mainly by gassing in the part of the camp to which the members of Oskar Strawczyinski's family were taken.

That being so, what reason is there not to consider it proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Oskar Strawczyinski’s parents, his wife Hannah and their children, nine-year-old Guta and four-year-old Abus, were killed in a gas chamber at Treblinka on 5 October 1942?

"Revisionists" may want to seek refuge in the formal-legalistic argument that the late Oskar Strawczyinski's memoir would not be admissible as evidence in court, so let’s take a look at whether this is really so.

[...]

So it doesn't look like either the German Criminal Procedure Law or the US Federal Rules of Evidence would keep a competent court under either legal system from accepting Oscar Strawczynski's memoirs as evidence to the death of Oscar Strawczynski's family members at Treblinka extermination camp.

It's also not like names of victims of the Nazi genocide of the Jews – whether killed in extermination camps, by mobile killing squads or by other means – are a rarity, even though the identity of millions of victims remains to be established. The percentage of Jewish mass murder victims whose names are known differs considerably among the various countries of origin, depending on how complete the records available in each country are and what effort authorities and researchers in a given country made to establish the identities and individual fates of their Jewish citizens killed by the Nazis (see Dr. Nick Terry’s article Arolsen: AAARGH, all those names.... for details).

The Dutch authorities did the best job in this respect: they managed to record the names of all Jewish citizens of the Netherlands killed by the Nazis, mostly in extermination camps. Auschwitz-Birkenau was the main destination of Jewish deportees from the Netherlands, but a total of 34,313 Dutch Jews arrived at Sobibor in 19 trains between 5 and 6 March and 23 July 1943. 18 survived. To what extent the individual fate of these and other deportees to Sobibor has been reconstructed is becoming apparent these days at the trial against John Demjanjuk before the Munich District Court, as the following translated excerpts from articles in SPIEGEL magazine may illustrate. Emphases are mine.

From the article Mutmaßlichem Massenmörder Demjanjuk droht Anklage in Deutschland:
Demjanjuk is accused of having during the time of his service participated in the murder of at least 29,000 Jews – most of them women, children and old people. Almost all were killed still on the day of their arrival.

Among the victims – and this is important for an eventual indictment in Germany – there were about 1,900 German Jews. "Due to the charges we are confident that a trial against him can be held in Germany", says Schrimm. It is now possible for the first time, according to Schrimm, to mention the victims with their complete name and birth date. The eldest victim, who died on 23 April 1943 in the gas chambers, had been a 99-year-old Jew from Holland. In all deportation trains, according to Schrimm, there were babies and little children, who were gassed immediately after arrival at Sobibor
.

From the article "Die Menschen sollen nicht vergessen":
19 of the joint plaintiffs have been called as witnesses and will travel to Munich when the trial begins. If things go according to plan they shall be heard within the first three days of the trial.

Others follow the trial from far away, in the Netherlands, in the USA, in Switzerland or Israel. All joint plaintiffs have lost close relatives, parents, brother and sisters or spouses, sometimes the whole family. According to the recovered transport lists they died in Sobibor extermination camp in occupied Poland, murdered in those months of the year 1943 in which Demjanjuk was presumably used there as guard by the SS.
From the article "Gefühllose und unbarmherzige Gesinnung":
The opening of the taking of evidence starts, over many minutes the Presiding Judge reads out names, birth and death dates of Jewish men and women who were deported in 1943 from the camp Westerbork in the Netherlands to Sobibor. There are many names, each one of them is a close relative of the joint plaintiffs, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters. Some joint plaintiffs wince when the names of their relatives are read.
And then there are folks asking "Can you give the name of just one Jew, with proof, who was gassed?", as if that were a clever and pertinent question ...


The above quote is from the blog article http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -with.html. Emphases and links were left out of the quote, they can be found in the article.
2. Nathan Nathans, uncle of survivor witness Saartje Engel-Wijnberg, gassed at Sobibór extermination camp on 9 April 1943

1. Sobibór was an extermination camp where deportees were mostly killed by gassing, as is proven by the evidence mentioned in my Skeptics Society forum thread Proof that "alleged Sobibór grave # 3/41" contains the rem. and the HC blogs labeled Sobibór.

2. Nathan Nathans, born 24.02.1898, was taken to Sobibór on a transport that left Westerbork in the Netherlands on 6 April 1943 and arrived at Sobibór on 9 April 1943. Like almost all other deportees in that transport, he was gassed at Sobibór on the same day. This is proven by the following evidence:

2.1 The transportation list for the transport departing from Westerbork on 6 April 1943 and arriving at Sobibór on 9 April 1943, which can be viewed in Schelvis file 56, pp. 72 to 129. Nathan Nathans, born 24.02.1898, is mentioned on page 27 of the list, page 98 of the file.

2.2 The testimony provided by the victim's niece, Saartje Engel-Wijnberg, in Zwolle on 14 August 1945. The relevant parts of this testimony can be viewed in Schelvis file 14, page 113. What follows is my translation of the witness's statement identifying her uncle Nathan Nathans as one of the persons gassed immediately after arrival at Sobibór:
In the camp I had to sort the rucksacks and clothes of the gassed people. I know for sure, that our entire transport, except for the 28 selected girls and the above mentioned number of men – was gassed immediately after arrival at Sobibór.
Among the gassed persons were the following:
MIRJAM DE VRIES, about 21 years old, from Haarlem
A 2 ½-year-old boy by the name of BROMET from Amsterdam, who could sing very well.
Mr. and Mrs. PEEREBOOM-PILLER, from Amsterdam,
BETSY HERSCHEL, about 22 years old, from Amsterdam,
Mrs. CATS from Haarlem, the mother of the above-mentioned Mini Catz,
NATHAN NATHANS, from Groningen, an uncle of mine, together with 5 children aged ½ a year to 14 years.
The other persons that belonged to this transport can be established on hand of the documents in Westerbork.
Saartje Engel-Wijnberg also testified at the Sobibór trial in Hagen, German Federal Republic, that ended in 1966. Excerpts from this trial's judgment are translated in my RODOH posts 12342 and 12344. She was considered a credible witness. In a memorandum of the Dortmund Public Prosecutor's Office, categorizing survivor witnesses presented by the prosecution at the Hagen Sobibór trial (see Schelvis file 13, pp. 4 and 5), the witnesses were divided into the following categories: credible witnesses (glaubwürdige Zeugen), conditionally credible witnesses (bedingt glaubwürdige Zeugen) and witnesses whose testimonies could not be used (Zeugen, deren Aussagen nicht verwertbar sind). Saartje Engel was listed among the credible witnesses.

For these reasons there is no room for reasonable doubt that Saartje Engel-Wijnberg spoke the truth in her above-quoted testimony. It is thus proven that Nathan Nathans was in fact gassed at Sobibór on 9 April 1943.
The above quote is from the blog article http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ims-1.html. Emphases and links were left out of the quote, they can be found in the article.
been-there wrote:Now... They may very well have been gassed at these camps.
That's the likeliest possibility, considering the testimonies about the main killing method provided by knowledgeable witnesses including former inmates, former SS-men and former Trawniki guards.
been-there wrote:They may have been shot.
Also a possibility if the arrivals were old and/or sick, considering the evidence showing that people who would otherwise have slowed down the march to the gas chambers on account of their infirmity because of old age and/or sickness were shot at the Treblinka "Lazarett" or its Sobibór equivalent.
been-there wrote:Maybe they were steamed to death.
Or maybe they were electrocuted.
To be ruled out, as neither killing method is mentioned by a knowledgeable witness. Steaming and electrocution were just the conjectures of outside observers based on rumor and/or speculation. Steaming may also have been the misconception of one or the other witness who escaped from the camp after a short while and had obtained no reliable information about the killing method while staying there.
been-there wrote:Or maybe they were transited to other camps.
To be ruled out, as there's no evidence that a number of people even remotely commensurate with the number of arrivals was taken away from these camps. From Sobibór a thousand able-bodied Jews at most were taken to labor camps which few of them survived, according to witness and Sobibór historian Jules Schelvis. Regarding Treblinka there are a few people who claimed to have been taken from there to Auschwitz, Budzyn of Lublin/Majdanek shortly after their arrival, but their recollections are highly dubious as they would imply a useless and logistically senseless detour via Treblinka. As concerns the "Russian East", where the deportees or the overwhelming majority of them are supposed to have been transported according to the "transit camp" theory, there is not a shred of evidence indicating any transports in that direction, the arrival, accommodation and further processing of deportees there and their eventual fate in the Reichskomissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration - even though, for the reasons explained under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... onist.html, there would be plenty of such evidence if the "transit camp" theory were not just hollow humbug, especially from a great many surviving deportees who would have provided accounts of what had "really" happened to them (and been entitled to compensation from the German Federal Republic on account of that, and in high demand from German defendants, defense attorneys as well as "alternative" propagandists).
been-there wrote:It maybe in the case of Treblinka they were walked across the shallow Bug river and marched into obscurity in the Russian occupied zone.
Yeah, sure. Thousands a day, hundreds of thousands in total were "walked across the shallow Bug river (which I didn't know was shallow, by the way). And nobody saw that happening, no SS-man, no Trawniki guard, no local Polish inhabitant. And on the other also nobody recalled having seen any of these people. And the German administrators in the Russian East were delighted to have all these many Jews in their lands, which they would either have to take care of or allow to maraud and join the local partisans in order to survive. And after the war they forgot about all that, as did the hundreds of thousands of deportees who had "walked across the shallow Bug". And no post-German authority ever noted the presence and doings of these people either. Bullshit.
been-there wrote:These are all speculations.
No, only been-there's absurd and un-evidenced "transit" and "walked across the Bug" scenarios are. And his "steam" and "electrocution" straw-men.
been-there wrote:ALL of these speculations are unevidenced.
No, only been-there's absurd and un-evidenced "transit" and "walked across the Bug" scenarios are. As concerns the rest there's some unreliable evidence ("steam" and "electrocution") and plenty of solid evidence (gassing and shooting).
been-there wrote: NONE of these speculations have ANY contemporary documentary evidence to support them, nor ANY forensic or empirical EVIDENCE to support them.
Actually death at the camps in question (though not the means of killing, for which there is only eyewitness testimony) follows from the available documentary evidence, and as to "forensic and empirical" evidence, post-war crime site investigations and archaeological research provided both. Not enough to prove the mass killings on their own, but enough to corroborate other evidence.
been-there wrote:(I'm trying to say the same thing in different ways in the hope that you might eventually see the reality here.)
What I've seen aplenty is deluded (or dishonest) nonsense peddled as "reality" by been-there and others of his persuasion.
been-there wrote:What you are persistently arguing for is only a belief-system that is not supported by any evidence that can be empirically tested. Do you see?
Such belief-system is much better than been-there's belief system, as it is based on solid evidence of the kind that is used to establish the facts of past events, whereas been-there's belief system is based on ideology, wishful thinking and no evidence at all.

And the requirement of empirical testability is rather nonsensical when it comes to historical events. I dare say that no evidential record of any historical event, or at least of any mass catastrophe man-made or not, is empirically testable, at least not in such a way as to allow for reconstructing the event in question. Empirical testing may provide hints about bits and pieces or certain aspects of such historical record, but that's it.

What is more, it is again duly noted that been-there only brings up his "empirically tested" requirement when it comes to events that don't fit his ideological belief system. When it comes to "Hellstorm" stuff about atrocities against Germans during and after World War II, such as rapes and killings by Soviet soldiers, he doesn't clamor for empirical testability. He accepts it as fact based on whatever a documentary's producer and the witnesses interviewed by such producer tell him. Isn't that so, been-there?

As to your funny pictures and diagrams, don't make be tell you what you can do with them.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Lily
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:43 pm
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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by Lily »

It's noted that Roberto dodged my request for original documents for the English text which onetruth posted in the OP.
Because they do not exist. :lol:

However, some of his posted 'documents' talk of deportation, evacuation, Jews killed as illegal *terrorists (so called 'partisans'), so what?
We see nothing that confirms the claimed total of '6 million Jews & 5 million others'.
* Non-uniformed combatants were legally permitted to be executed under international law, Jews made up a large portion of these terrorists / 'partisans'. The Allies also executed such persons.

Laughably, Roberto then posts Nuremberg photostats, not the original documents, of alleged letters. Where are the originals?

easily handled here
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11187
and:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7422

on the Kharkov speech, Paul Hausser at Nuremberg:
IMT,vol.XX
HAUSER: I know only about the speech at Kharkov in 1943, in
which he mentioned three points which called forth our criticism
and opposition. I have already expressed myself on the one point,
namely, the terror which was to precede us. His distasteful state-
ments about the Jews referred to Germany only and did not indi-
cate extermination in any way.

pgs.368-369

On the laughably fake 'meldung 361,000' Jews photostat see:

Andrew Mathis / Thames Darwin smack down:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9620
and
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=169

Predictably we see that Roberto dodges his explanation as to how the hilarious & impossible 'gas chambers' are supposed to have worked. :lol:
The Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, so, anyone, please show us the excavated enormous mass graves that are claimed to exist, their locations are allegedly known.
Is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?
We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by Roberto »

Lily wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:51 pm
It's noted that Roberto dodged my request for original documents for the English text which onetruth posted in the OP.
Because they do not exist.
Actually I'm collecting them and have already provided a few after just some googling. Which "Lily" is obviously unable to read, judging by the crap that follows.
Lily wrote:However, some of his posted 'documents' talk of deportation, evacuation, Jews killed as illegal *terrorists (so called 'partisans'), so what?
What document exactly do you have in mind? Quote the German text, please. The only document in which I remember having read something about partisans ("bandits", in the document's parlance) is the one shown under http://www.ns-archiv.de/krieg/sowjetuni ... tionen.php. Maybe it's the only one that "Lily"'s limited knowledge of German enabled him to understand. The documents mentions the killing within four months in 1942 of:
1. "Bandits":
a) 1,337 "bandits" killed in battle
b) 737 prisoners immediately executed
c) 7,828 executed after longer intensive interrogation.
2. "Bandit helpers and bandit suspects"
a) arrested: 16,553
b) executed: 14,257
c) Jews executed: 363,211

So we have 9,902 dead "bandits", 14,257 non-Jewish "bandit helpers and bandit suspects" and 363,211 Jewish "bandit helpers and bandit suspects", the latter outnumbering the former by a factor of 25:1. This alone shows that the Jews were executed not because they were "bandit helpers and bandit suspects" but because they were Jews, and that listing them under "bandit helpers and bandit suspects" was but a lame pretext to justify their execution. Moreover, if Jews had been executed because they were considered "bandit helpers and bandit suspects", there would have been no need to list them separately.
Lily wrote:We see nothing that confirms the claimed total of '6 million Jews & 5 million others'.
Did anybody say that the total number of victims becomes apparent from a single German document or several such documents? Not that I know. However, it becomes clear from Brack's letter to Himmler of 23 June 1942 that the Jewish population of Europe, estimated at ten million, was meant to be wiped out. Hence Brack's suggestion that able-bodied Jews be spared provided they were sterilized.

It's not "6 million Jews and 5 million others", by the way. It's up to 6 million Jews (the actual number is probably closer to 5 million) and well over 5 million non-Jews (mainly Soviet prisoners of war, victims of the siege of Leningrad and non-Jewish civilians murdered in the course of anti-partisan operations and reprisals). See the following articles on the HC blog site:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -that.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-2.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... er-of.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... thods.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... to_28.html
Lily wrote:* Non-uniformed combatants were legally permitted to be executed under international law, Jews made up a large portion of these terrorists / 'partisans'. The Allies also executed such persons.
So just how large a portion of the partisans were Jews? According to the page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_partisans, there were between 20,000 and 30,000 in all of Europe. According to the studies of Gerlach and Golczewski, excerpts from which are translated under
http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... nd-Poland , the number of Jewish partisans in Belorussia and Poland was very low. So please, "Lily", show us some sources whereby "Jews made up a large portion of these terrorists / 'partisans'". I'm all ears.

Another thing: while it may be argued that non-uniformed combatants may be executed under international law (or which I don't think "Lily" knows much), the same does not apply to unarmed civilians. And the overwhelming majority of those executed according to Himmler's report to Hitler of 29.12.1942 were unarmed civilians. So even if the Jews had been killed because they were considered "bandit helpers" and "bandit suspects", their killing would still be a crime on a very large scale.
Lily wrote:Laughably, Roberto then posts Nuremberg photostats, not the original documents, of alleged letters. Where are the originals?
In archives like the NARA, the National Archives and the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz, where one would have to apply for color copies as such are not usually available on the internet. And what is actually laughable is "Lily"'s clamoring for "originals", as there's no reason to suspect that the photostats don't coincide with the originals.
I see no pertinent arguments "here", just garbage exchanged between "Revisionist" true believers. And references to "discussions" among "Revisionists" on a censored forum are the lame subterfuge of a coward with little if any arguments of his own.

Could you, "Lily", tell use in your own words how you and/or your fellow CODOH clowns explained the use of the term "Sonderbehandlung" in Greiser's letter to Himmler dated 1 May 1942 (regarding what had been done to Jews and might also be done to tubercular Poles) and 21.11.1942 (regarding what was planned to do to tubercular Poles)?

Or what Himmler clearly stated in his speech of 4 October 1942, as written down and recorded on audio?

Or what was to happen to those 10 million assumed European Jews according to Brack (minus the ones that he recommended be spared)?

Or what it was that required working as fast as possible for camouflage purposes (dass man schon aus Gründen der Tarnung so schnell wie möglich arbeiten müsse)?

Or what (other than "where are the originals" - BS) you and/or your fellow CODOH clowns based their pathetic "forgery" squealing on, in case they considered the documents' contents too obviously incriminating to explain away?

Please explain, "Lily". And if that's too much for you (as I presume it will be, considering the limited intellect you have displayed), just spam over what your fellow true believers wrote. It will be my pleasure to dissect it here, like I have dissected CODOH crap on RODOH before (after being censored on CODOH). Come on, "Lily". What are you waiting for?
Lily wrote:on the Kharkov speech, Paul Hausser at Nuremberg:
IMT,vol.XX
HAUSER: I know only about the speech at Kharkov in 1943, in
which he mentioned three points which called forth our criticism
and opposition. I have already expressed myself on the one point,
namely, the terror which was to precede us. His distasteful state-
ments about the Jews referred to Germany only and did not indi-
cate extermination in any way.

pgs.368-369


You're barking up the wrong tree here, [name] (pardon "Lily" - the fellow uses a handle suggesting a woman, which is particularly despicable). The Kharkov speech was quoted under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ation.html on account of the following statement:
The decision, therefore, lies here in the East; here must the Russian enemy, this people numbering two hundred million Russians, be destroyed on the battle field and person by person, and made to bleed to death.

It is my opinion - and here, I believe, I am speaking to men [p. 3] who already understand this - that we must conduct the war and our campaign on these lines:-how can we take the most men from the Russians-dead or alive? We shall do it by killing them or taking them prisoner and [p. 4] really putting them to work, by endeavoring to gain as much control as possible over any territory we occupy, and by leaving empty of people any territory we dispose of, any areas we make over to the enemy. Either they must be deported and will be used as labour in Germany for Germany, or they will just die in battle. To hand people back again, giving the enemy workers once more and enabling him to recruit again,-that I think, taking the broad view, would be absolutely wrong. That could not be advocated.
Lily wrote:On the laughably fake 'meldung 361,000' Jews photostat see:
Andrew Mathis / Thames Darwin smack down:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9620
and
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=169
Same as above. Please substantiate the forgery claim in your own words, or spam over the best of related CODOH crap if you're not able to do that (as I presume is the case).
Lily wrote:Predictably we see that Roberto dodges his explanation as to how the hilarious & impossible 'gas chambers' are supposed to have worked.
What we actually see is Lily dodging what I wrote regarding gas chambers and cremation in these blog articles:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ame].html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... name].html
Lily wrote:
The Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, so, anyone, please show us the excavated enormous mass graves that are claimed to exist, their locations are allegedly known.
Is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?
First of all, that's not what any "industry" claims, but what historians have concluded based on their research.

Second, hundreds of mass graves all over Eastern Europe have been found, as you may see e.g. under http://yahadmap.org/#map/. Their contents range from dozens or hundreds to over ten thousand. And these are hardly all graves, considering that the Jewish population of the USSR sank from about 5.1 million in June 1941 to about 2.2 million in 1945, with about 300,000 dying in the Red Army or as civilians due to acts of war or privation, which means that the rest were victims of Nazi persecution and mass murder (some transported to extermination camps, the majority killed on site).

Third, it's not you or any other "Revisionist" scumbag who gets to set the standards of evidence. Few if any mass crimes in history have been reconstructed essentially by excavating mass graves. Mass crimes are reconstructed by criminal investigators and historians on hand of matching documentary, demographic, eyewitness and physical evidence. And that applies to crimes committed by people you don't like more than it does to the crimes of your beloved Nazis. I dare say that the number of Nazi victims whose bodies or cremation remains have been excavated or otherwise localized is higher than the number of victims of Stalin's regime of which the same can be said.
Lily wrote:We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
No we're not, see above.
Lily wrote:There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
First of all, there are large mass graves that were excavated by the Soviets, and in some cases also in post Soviet-times. Examples can be found in the blogs articles under the following links (among others), some of which contain photographs or film stills of mass graves and stiffs:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... lesie.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... found.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... odies.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... i-yar.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -nazi.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... cists.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... cists.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... hotos.html

Second, the mass graves at Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibór have been located by archaeologists. So have some of the grave pits at Treblinka. Regarding Chelmno, Belzec and Treblinka there's also telling information about excavations and/or remains on site in reports about postwar criminal investigations.

Third, a question far more pertinent than your squealing for the contents of mass graves at these places is whether you can provide even a shred of evidence showing that all or most of the people transported there were not murdered but transported from there to somewhere else. You cannot, even though you should be wading in such evidence, for the reasons I explained under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... nist.html . Not one single name from out of about 1.5 million deportees supposedly sent to the "Russian East" from Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka, more than 70 years after the end of World War II, while on the other hand the names of a considerable number of the victims can be found in several archives. The "Revisonist" performance is thus utterly pathetic.

And last but not least, there are no rules and standards of evidence whereby the contents of mass graves must be "shown" in order to prove mass crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, least of all shown to a bunch of ideologically motivated assholes.
Lily wrote:Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.[/b]

Who are you to holler "show us", "Lily"? You are nothing but a lying piece of garbage, which doesn't get to set the standards of evidence according to which the facts of mass crimes are established in criminal investigation and historical research.

And if you like to see stiffs, I suggest you look up the links I posted above, some of which contain photos of plenty to warm your heart. Or watch my slide show under https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmHR4P5 ... 4B636D50C9.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Lily
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Re: More Than 100 Nazi Extermination Remarks, 1939-1944

Post by Lily »

Advice to the struggling Roberto:
When in a hole, quit digging. :lol:

It's noted again that Roberto dodged my request for original documents for the English text which Zionist onetruth posted in the OP.
Because they do not exist.

In Roberto's Laughable Links we see no such human remains for millions. Only Communist claims of graves, as posted by Zionist 'holocau$t controversies'.
Sorry Comrade Roberto, you would be laughed out of a legit court of law with that crap.

I can see Roberto in court now, 'Please your honor, there really are remains of millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are, ... but, but, well, umm, we can't show the court. You must trust us, we're Zionists.' :lol:

True Believers one & all, actually show us the massive human remains that Jews say are there. Two guys with shovels could do it ... well, except the alleged massive remains do not exist and Roberto & Co. are trying to hide that fact.

for much more see:
'Alleged 'execution sites' map / So why don't we see the alleged accompanying mass graves? What are they hiding?'
forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10819
'Nessie's' SIX 'proofs' of the 'holocaust' storyline'
forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11060
and:
'Sobibor Jew corpses claimed here, so why don't they excavate, verify, & show the world? !!!'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10610
and:
'Blobel's Missing mass graves'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10679

Much more at the CODOH Forum, just search mass graves at: http://forum.codoh.com

Thanks Roberto, for the opportunity to post the facts from CODOH instead of Fake News from Zionist 'holocau$t controversies'. :lol:

And oh yes, Roberto takes more on-topic beatings here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2956
and
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2957

I repeat:
The Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, so, anyone, please show us the excavated enormous mass graves that are claimed to exist, their locations are allegedly known.
Is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?
and:
We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor), 34,000 at Babi Yar, even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.

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