Transit Challenge Submission

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
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Nessie
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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
The obvious alternative interpretation, is that the entries do NOT contradict, but complement.
When revisionists use sources like that, they contradict each other. When gas chamber mongers find sources that apparently contradict each other, they merely complement each other. See, been-there? That is how you must believe. :lol:
Been-there admits his is only an interpretation. He admits that there are alternatives. It is just he has decided which one is correct, he ridicules anyone who disagrees and he ignores a lot of evidence which contradicts that belief.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.


Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH, kindly contact Scott Smith. All contributions are welcome!


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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by SnakeDoctor »

What do you call a Mexican with a rubber toe?


Roberto

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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by SFinesilver »

Look at Roberto run!

What a coward!
SFinesilver wrote:RM:
This challenge was born out of an amenable conversation between my old friend Greg Gerdes and me on the threads

$1,000.00 REWARD FOR THE NAME OF JUST ONE GASSED JEW

...

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... onist.html
Did you receive a $1,000.00 reward - Yes. - or - No. - ??
D - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, Germany used "resettlement to the east" as a euphemism for transiting jews to the so-called "top secret" - PURE EXTERMINATION CAMPS - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

E - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the so-called "pure extermination camps" were - THE END OF THE LINE - for virtually everyone transited to those camps - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; during WW II, Germany actually transited jews to labor camps / ghettos - that were located east of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - ?? - Nessie's answer: True.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2078&start=210#p65945

SFinesilver
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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by SFinesilver »

Look at Roberto run!

What a coward!

SFinesilver wrote:RM:
Given the utter impossibility of no names of transited persons having become known within more than six (almost seven) decades after the events in question, failure to submit at least one name with proof within the aforementioned period (365 days) will be taken as implying the Applicant’s admission that the Revisionist transit camp theory does not hold water.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... onist.html
Let's see what holds water here and what doesn't.

Roberto,
#43 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.
 
#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.
 
#45 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.
 
#46 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.
 
#47 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.
 
#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.
 
#49 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.
 
#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.
What are you waiting for Roberto?

What are you so afraid of?
 
D - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, Germany used "resettlement to the east" as a euphemism for transiting jews to the so-called "top secret" - PURE EXTERMINATION CAMPS - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

E - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the so-called "pure extermination camps" were - THE END OF THE LINE - for virtually everyone transited to those camps - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; during WW II, Germany actually transited jews to labor camps / ghettos - that were located east of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - ?? - Nessie's answer: True.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2078&start=210#p65945

SFinesilver
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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by SFinesilver »

Day 2 of Roberto's chicken challenge and what is Roberto doing?

Running away like scared little girl!


:lol:


SFinesilver wrote:RM:
So a total of 1,419,467 persons are supposed to have been transited to the "Russian East" in this period through these camps alone,

instead of being gassed at these camps as all known evidence shows them to have been.

...

My challenge is the following:

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp, have at this moment a certain sum on a savings account, the existence of which I can prove and of which I am prepared to pay up to $ 4,000, $ 1,000 for each name, to the first Revisionist(s) who can provide, along with corresponding conclusive evidence, the names of up to 4 Jews who were transited through Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka (not necessarily one per camp, can be all four through one camp, two here and two there or any other combination) to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943. By transited I mean that the person in question must have been taken to the respective camp, then shipped from that camp to a certain destination in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union as defined above, e.g. to Minsk, Riga, Kovno or Kiev.

...

This challenge is not meant to be written in stone. It will be changed from time to time as deemed necessary for its improvement.

posting.php?mode=reply&f=13&t=2823
New prologue for the disingenuous - Transit Camp Challenge - If RM isn't too chicken:
The following challenge pertains specifically to the _?_ [number of] jews that - I CAN - prove actually set foot in Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II, but - I CANNOT - prove were gassed and buried in said locations:
What are you waiting for Roberto?

What are you so afraid of?
Now run Roberto.

Image

RUN!
D - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, Germany used "resettlement to the east" as a euphemism for transiting jews to the so-called "top secret" - PURE EXTERMINATION CAMPS - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

E - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the so-called "pure extermination camps" were - THE END OF THE LINE - for virtually everyone transited to those camps - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; during WW II, Germany actually transited jews to labor camps / ghettos - that were located east of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - ?? - Nessie's answer: True.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2078&start=210#p65945

SFinesilver
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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by SFinesilver »

Turnagain wrote:Roberto said.
" As I no longer have the time and patience for Gerdes' repetitive junk, I'll let him go on with his multicolored raving, rambling and name-calling for as long as he wishes."

Translation: I have absolutely no answer to any of Gerdes questions so I shall ignore him. :lol:
Yep - that's why it's called delusionalism.
D - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, Germany used "resettlement to the east" as a euphemism for transiting jews to the so-called "top secret" - PURE EXTERMINATION CAMPS - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

E - Has it been alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the so-called "pure extermination camps" were - THE END OF THE LINE - for virtually everyone transited to those camps - Yes. - or - No. - ?? - Nessie's answer: Yes.

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; during WW II, Germany actually transited jews to labor camps / ghettos - that were located east of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - ?? - Nessie's answer: True.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2078&start=210#p65945

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been-there
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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by been-there »

How about an answer to my point Roberto?
This one here.
been-there wrote:As predicted, “anything which 'falsifies' the cherished belief-system is either ignored, or if it can't be ignored then is justified in some dishonest, delusional manner.”

And here is that dishonest, delusional justification, encapsulated in this sentence:
“The only thing that Boisdefeau found were two contradictory informational streams that did not even intersect (i.e. the sources that say he went to Minsk don't say he went through Treblinka and vice versa).”
The obvious alternative interpretation, is that the entries do NOT contradict, but complement. Occams razor!
The true-believer 'needs' and 'desires' these documents to be mistakes BECAUSE they 'conflict'. But they ONLY conflict or contradict IF you have an a priori belief with a related and desired specific result or conclusion to reach.
They are ONLY presumed to be 'contradictory' documents because holocaust defenders/true-believers choose not to believe them in this specific case. And why? Well because it refutes their belief-system. That is the ONLY reason why they reject this evidence.
Two sources, for the same guy. Same age, same name, same birth town, etc. If these so-called 'contradictory' documents are BOTH regarded as being accurate, then the conclusion is clear, simple and obvious. Rothstein WAS transported to Trebinka. He DID die in Minsk. Therefore Treblinka was NOT a death camp for him but a transit camp.
Q.E.D.
Which was in answer to this:
Holocaust controversies blog wrote:Germar Rudolf repeating Boisdefeau's "findings" in the "One Survivor, One Single Survivor! Treblinka Transitees":
How about Jews actually transited to “the East”? Jean-Marie Boisdefeu has documented an interesting case he stumbled over while skimming Vad Vashem’s database of Holocaust victims.[22] This case, too, is based on a memorial book published by government authorities, in this case of Germany. It concerns the Berlin Jew Siegmund Rothstein, born in 1867, who was first deported to the Theresienstadt Ghetto for elderly Jews in August 1942. Barely a month later, however, on September 26, he was deported to Treblinka at the age of 75. But that was not his end at all, because the German authorities found life signs of him further east, as they finally determined that Rothstein died in Minsk, the capital city of Belarus, some 240 miles (286 km) east of Treblinka. I doubt 75-year-old Mr. Rothstein jumped off the train prior to arriving at Treblinka and ran all the way to German-occupied Minsk, Hence, he must have traveled there by train. I also doubt that the German authorities reserved a train just for him or put just him on a military train going to Minsk. Rather, he must have made that journey on a deportation train together with hundreds or thousands of fellow deportees from Theresienstadt.
There is of course zero evidence of any transports that went through Treblinka and arrived in Belorussia, or of any camps there for deported Jews unable to work. Had there even been such transports, they would have had a single goal: to bring those Jews to Maly Trostinets for extermination, since by that time the Nazis didn't need Western Jews unable to work in the Russian East (one other obvious fact that shows the whole "resettlement" thesis to be a crude fantasy).

Rothstein's case is no exception. The only thing that Boisdefeau found were two contradictory informational streams that did not even intersect (i.e. the sources that say he went to Minsk don't say he went through Treblinka and vice versa).

Now, any database, especially such a complex one, will contain errors and contradictions. A database is not a primary source in any case, so if Boisdefeau wanted to use Rothstein's case, he would have to do the necessary legwork and get the primary sources to exclude the chance of a typo or a mix-up. Instead he blindly relied on an electronic instrument that is liable to contain mistakes. It might have been a passable "secondary" argument, but it was a purported refutation of the exterminatory role of Treblinka. When one makes such grand claims one should rely on more than some electronic database.

That said, the mistakes in these entries stem not from the database itself but from the underlying sources. Rothstein is identified as transferred from Theresienstadt with the transport Br on 26.09.1942.

According to most up-to-date sources the transport Br with 2004 Jews went to Treblinka. The Yad Vashem database description says:
The transport, designated “Br”, departed from Theresienstadt on September 26, 1942 and was the fourth in a series of eight transports of sick and elderly Jews (“Alterstransporte”). On board were 2,004 inmates of Theresienstadt. It arrived in Treblinka on September 28 or 29. The transport was composed entirely of Jews who had been deported earlier from Germany and Austria, among them 617 deportees from Vienna and 584 from Berlin. Their average age was 72.
But when at the same webpage we look at the sources, we see one of them listed as follows:
List of 2, 004 Jews deported from the Theresienstadt Ghetto to Maly Trostinec camp (to the East) on Transport Br, 26/09/1942
Further internet search shows this at EHRI:
List of 2,004 Jews deported from the Theresienstadt Ghetto to Maly Trostinec camp (to the East) on Transport Br, 26/09/1942 Br Osten 26.IX.42
Identifier O.64.2/WSZ.3/304
In other words in the Hermann Weisz Collection part of the Yad Vashem Archives Theresienstadt Collection the transport Br is mistakenly identified as a transport to the extermination camp Maly Trostinets near Minsk in Belorussia. This shows that at least one secondary source (and actually there were more) mistakenly misidentified the destination of this transport. Hence the contradictory information in the database entries. All the entries relied on secondary sources, like the Bundesarchiv Gedenkbuch and the Yizkor book of the Kitzingen community. These secondary sources in turn used the information from other sources, both primary and secondary, some more reliable, some less. The Yizkor book of the Kitzingen community happened to rely on a secondary source mistakenly claiming that the transport arrived in Maly Trostenets (Minsk).

Note that in these lists of Jews the exact end station was not given, the destination was usually given as "East" ("Osten"). So it's not hard to see why some earlier researcher (like Weisz) could have misidentified destinations of particular transports.

So the only example the deniers could muster for a person transferred through the Aktion Reinhardt camps and Chelmno "to the Russian East" predictably turned out to be a dud. The attempted amalgamation of various Rothstein entries to form a single one, "proving" he went through Treblinka to Minsk, turned out to be chimeric.

The "resettlement" thesis remains as fantastical as before. No person that is both sane and well-informed will ever accept it.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... .html#more~
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

Roberto
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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by Roberto »

SFinesilver aka Greg Gerdes wrote:Day 2 of Roberto's chicken challenge and what is Roberto doing?

Running away like scared little girl!


:lol:
I'm not running, as you well know. I just don't have the time and patience required to pay attention to your repetitive multi-colored imbecilities.
And as to your "chicken" and "running away" BS, you are obviously projecting your own behavior once more. For it was Greg Gerdes who ran away like a "scared little girl" from our appointment at Sobibór on 15.10.2008:
Greg Gerdes, post # 1503:
Originally Posted by Greg Gerdes View Post

Well, what do we have from the little faggot today?

Nothing? Mmmmmmmm.

Why won't the faggot confirm whether it will be at Sobibor on the 15th?


Greg Gerdes, post # 1512:
Originally Posted by Greg Gerdes View Post

Notice how the little faggot refuses to answer my simple question.

YES or NO faggot:

Will you be at Sobibor on Oct. 15th, 2008?

YES or NO?

Any answer other than YES will be construed as a no.

Is the answer YES?

One simple three letter answer to one very simple question.

I will need an answer by tomorrow, 12:00 noon (Sun.), my time.

Will you be at Sobibor on Oct. 15th, 2008?

YES or NO?

Greg Gerdes, post # 1514:
Originally Posted by Greg Gerdes View Post

All right Roberta!

All systems go - we have travel plans signed, sealed and delivered.

See you on the 15th faggot!!!

Two more things:

1 - I publicly challenge the P.O.S. Stasi bastards in Gewmany to put out an arrest warrant for me - ala Toben.

Got that you shabbas goy MF's? I DARE YOU.

2 - And for the last time retardo, what color dress will you be wearing?


Greg Gerdes, post # 1521:
Originally Posted by Greg Gerdes View Post

Boy, someone would have to be really really stupid to actually think that I would go to Europe after what happened to Toben.

But wait, slamin sam is really really stupid.

Uhmmmm, never mind.

BTW - sam / slamin / coward - see post # 394


As a Portuguese saying has it, the mountain gave birth to a mouse.

All this bigmouthed howling and challenging and self-projecting invective (not to mention the suggestions in other posts that he might get violent), only to be followed by Gerdes' meek confession that he didn’t come to Sobibor after all, his pretext being that he was afraid he might be arrested like Toben (which shows that Gerdes, assuming he’s serious about this and not just scrounging up an excuse, has an exaggerated idea of his importance in the "Revisionist" scene, by the way – actually I would be surprised if authorities in Germany or another European country enforcing hate speech laws had ever heard of a small fish like Gerdes, and even if they had I don’t think they could arrest him unless he committed a hate speech crime on or with effect onto their territory).

Being unlike Gerdes a man of integrity, I was at Sobibor yesterday in the morning. I arrived at about 9:45 hours local time and left around noon. No Gerdes, no EG, no nothing. I thought maybe something had held up Gerdes, that he had been arrested at a German or Polish airport after holding a public "Revisionist" sermon as his brave announcement:
1 - I publicly challenge the P.O.S. Stasi bastards in Gewmany to put out an arrest warrant for me - ala Toben.

Got that you shabbas goy MF's? I DARE YOU.
suggested he might do. And what do I find instead, when visiting the web this morning in the Wlodawa city library, for the first time since my departure to Poland? I find that Gerdes never left for Poland and is sitting in his cozy trailer drinking Rocky Mountain Piss Water (aka the American Budweiser beer, not to be confused with the Czech one that is among the best in the world) and repeating the same worn "not one this-and-that" rhetoric for the umpteenth time.

The trip on 15 October wasn’t wasted, though, because I found out that the branch line on which the trains carrying the deportees were shunted to the camp entrance is still in operation, though it doesn’t go as far as it did in camp times. An freight train with open cars was standing there, and logs were being loaded onto these cars with mechanical grabbers from agricultural vehicles. I filmed the procedure as authorized by one of the guys handling the grabbers, until the supervisor came up to me and told me that I wasn’t allowed to film there. I didn’t understand his explanation why because I don’t speak Polish, but I didn’t see a point in putting off the gentleman.

I left after a few more snapshots of the camp when my camcorder battery gave out and didn’t come back that day, because I had already been there and made photographs and films the day before. I’ll process what I have starting next week, because I’ll be traveling to Germany for a family event over the weekend. I took ground shots of the "ash mountain" and of those greener areas, and I found quite a few objects that in my opinion can only be bone fragments, and photographed and filmed them with hopefully enough detail for viewers to decide for themselves if they agree with me or not. It would have been good if Gerdes had been with me to give his theory on what these objects are, there and then in front of a running camera.

Anyway, thank you very much, Mr. Gerdes, for pointing out so clearly that you are all bluff and no action, and that there’s nothing behind the big mouthfuls of manure you keep spitting around. As Slanim has aptly pointed out, your behavior has shown (again, I might add) just what your big fat NAFCASH challenge is worth. Who would expect a proven liar and coward like you to pay out a single cent regardless of what evidence he is shown?


https://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p ... count=1525, linked to under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... pdate.html. Emphases added.

So that's why you keep calling people coward, Greg. Because you see a miserable little coward when you look in the mirror every day. I wouldn't be surprised if your other invective also carried a distinct element of self-projection. You're not worth another minute of my time.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by Roberto »

been-there wrote:How about an answer to my point Roberto?
What "point"?

You would have a point if there were sources suggesting a transport from Treblinka to Minsk.

What you have is some sources claiming that Rothstein was on a transport from Theresienstadt to Minsk and died in Minsk, others (including the one under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/de1145488) claiming that he was on a transport from Theresienstadt to Treblinka and died in Treblinka ("26. September 1942, Treblinka, Vernichtungslager"). And no evidence that transports to Minsk from Theresienstadt got anywhere close to Treblinka. So one of set of sources must be wrong as concerns Rothstein's destination. As simple as that.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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been-there
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Re: Transit Challenge Submission

Post by been-there »

Roberto wrote:
been-there wrote:How about an answer to my point Roberto?
What "point"?
You would have a point if there were sources suggesting a transport from Treblinka to Minsk.

What you have is some sources claiming that Rothstein was on a transport from Theresienstadt to Minsk and died in Minsk, others (including the one under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/de1145488) claiming that he was on a transport from Theresienstadt to Treblinka and died in Treblinka ("26. September 1942, Treblinka, Vernichtungslager"). And no evidence that transports to Minsk from Theresienstadt got anywhere close to Treblinka. So one of set of sources must be wrong as concerns Rothstein's destination. As simple as that.
Thanks for the source confirming he was “on a transport from Theresienstadt to Treblinka.”
Q1. Can you provide some primary source for him being on a transport from Theresienstadt to Minsk”?
Q2. Why do you doubt the source stating he died in Minsk?
Q3. Why do you claim that “transports to Minsk from Theresienstadt got [no]where close to Treblinka”? The rail journey from Terezin to Minsk goes through Malkinia. Its almost a direct straight line. Malkinia obviously is extremely close to Treblinka as this 1936 map shows. So the EXACT opposite to what you wrote is true.

Image
Last edited by been-there on Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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