Now that's quite true, and applies all the more to T-II "transit camp". Treblinka station at least was on a main line leading somewhere. T-II was on a branch line leading nowhere.been-there wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:08 amPersonally I think you might be projecting what is in fact your own confusion about what you call "the whole Treblinka, Treblinka Village, Treblinka Station, Malkinia Station, T-II confusions" onto others.blake121666 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:31 amRudolf still thinks his Siegmund Rothstein example answers the "Transit Challenge" in a recent interview:
http://grizzom.blogspot.com/2017/06/the ... ow_27.html
He also claims that a non-Jewish Pole told him that he (or his father, I don't remember exactly) transited through "Treblinka". I am of course assuming that Rudolf meant T-II - although maybe Rudolf is not fully aware of the whole Treblinka, Treblinka Village, Treblinka Station, Malkinia Station, T-II confusions.
Does anyone here think this Rothstein is an example of a Jew transited through T-II to "the Russian East"?
It seems throughout this interview of these things that Rudolf is quite out of his depth on this particular "transit camp" issue.
This has been patiently — and in detail — been pointed out to you before.
In that discussion you showed that initially you weren't aware of these distinctions of place. And then when an explanation was provided with photographic and cartographic evidence, you still refused to alter your original position.
No-one was 'transited' through Treblinka Village or Treblinka Station.
been-there wrote:Aktion Reinhardt was an operation concerned with exile, epidemic prevention, wealth seizure and control chiefly for labour purposes of European Jews.
Yeah, I guess that's why Globocnik mentioned that "the documents regarding all other work in this matter have already been destroyed", in his letter to Himmler dated 5 January 1944.
And why no "exile" destination other than Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka is mentioned in transportation documents and related correspondence.
And why Goebbels, in his diary entry of 27 March 1942, referred to the liquidation of the Jews from the General Government by a "barbaric procedure" that even the everything-other-than-squeamish Goebbels didn't want to describe more precisely, and stated that a "judgment" was being visited upon the Jews.
And why Stroop mentioned T-II as a place where Jews were sent in order to be "liquidated" or destroyed".
Any why SS-men involved in the operation were sworn to secrecy and forbidden to taken photographs.
And why Viktor Brack, in a letter to Himmler dated 23 June 1942, in which he recommended that 2-3 million able-bodied Jews out an assumed ten million should be spared provided that they would be sterilized, mentioned a statement of the Reichsführer's whereby one should work as fast as possible already for reasons of camouflage.
And of course an "operation concerned with epidemic prevention, wealth seizure and control chiefly for labour purposes of European Jews" also explains the following further evidence mentioned by Browning in his expert report for the defense at the Irving-Lipstadt trial (https://www.hdot.org/browning/#):
Those Jews at Treblinka whose insufficiently buried corpses issued a stench that polluted a large are must have all died from some extremely deadly "epidemic". Maybe bubonic, pneumonic or septacemic plague broke out among them.The Oberfeldkommandant reported the following month:
The Jewish population displays the deepest depression, which is completely understandable because on the one hand in various locations in the district the well-known actions against the Jews occur again and on the other hand in Lemberg the temporarily interrupted resettlement of Jews resumes; in the meantime it is whispered also among the Jews that the evacuees never reach the resettlement territory that is alleged to them as the destination.
The deportations from Galicia broke off during the months of May, June, and July 1942, but resumed in August. In October the Oberfeldkommandant reported again:
The resettlement actions continue undiminished. The Jews are informed of their fate. Indicative is the statement of a member of the Lwow Jewish council: We all carry our death certificates in our pocket--only the date of death is not yet filled out.112
The trains deporting Jews from Galicia did indeed go to Belzec, as can be seen in the report of Reserve Lieutenant Westermann of the 7th company of Police Regiment 24, whose men helped round up the Jews in Kolomyja and nearby towns and then guarded two transports to Belzec on September 7 and 10, 1942. The first contained 4,769 Jews in 50 train cars and went without incident. The second involved 8,205 Jews. Many had been held for days without food and force-marched 35-50 kilometers to the train in blistering heat. They were then packed into train cars, in many cases 180-200 per car, virtually without ventilation. As Lieutenant Westermann concluded: "The ever greater panic spreading among the Jews due to the great heat, overloading of the train cars, and stink of the dead--when unloading the train cars some 2,000 Jews were found dead in the train--made the transport almost unworkable."Nevertheless the train that left Kolomyja at 8:50 pm. on September 10 finally crawled into Belzec at 6:45 pm on September 11.113
The deportations from Bialystok, a district east of Treblinka, are of special significance for two reasons. First, these deportations from Bialystok make clear that Treblinka was not a transit camp for the expulsion of Jews eastward from the General Government. Rather the tiny village of Treblinka, like Belzec, was a point at which transports of Jews converged from east and west. Moreover, the fate of the Bialystok Jews in the fall of 1942 was clearly stated in Himmler's report to Hitler of December 31, 1942. The Jews of Bialystok were among the 363,211 "Jews executed." The fate of the Jews sent to Treblinka is also reflected in a report noted in the October 10, 1942, entry to the War Diary of the Oberquartiermeister of the military commander in Poland.
OK Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and as a result an unbearable smell of cadavers pollutes the air.118
Yeah, and that shit was duly taken apart, in the following posts among others:
Sure, one single case that would have been an exceptional oversight is supposed to "underline" that "Treblinka was indeed used as a transit camp where not even old, frail Jews were murdered". Some "logic".been-there wrote:Carlo Mattogno has pointed out a particularly illuminating case of a Jewish individual transited through Treblinka. It concerns the fate of a certain Minna Grossova, who was born on Sept. 20, 1874. On October 19, 1942, this 68-year-old lady was deported to Treblinka — at a time when on average some 5,000 Jews are said to have been killed and buried there every single day.
But instead of getting killed there, she was sent to Auschwitz, where she … no, was not sent to the gas chambers either, although she was most certainly not “fit for labour,” but lived there another 14 months, finally dying there on December 30th.
If Mrs. Grossova at age 68 was spared death in the gas chambers of Treblinka and Auschwitz, it is likely that the many hundreds of her fellow sufferers deported together with her shared her fate as well. This fate, too, underlines that Treblinka was indeed used as a transit camp where not even old, frail Jews were murdered.
Mattogno writes the following in his book about Belzec (pp. 107/108 of the English translation):
The case of Minna Grossova, a Czech Jewess, is particularly significant; born on September 20, 1874, she was deported to Treblinka October 19, 1942, but died on December 30, 1943, at Auschwitz.355 Thus, in spite of her 68 years of age, she was not only not ‘gassed’ at Treblinka, but was indeed moved to Auschwitz, where she was duly registered; hence, she survived even the ‘selection’ on arrival.
Mattogno's claim about Minna Grossová is based on Terezínská Pamétní Kniha, Terezínská Iniciativa, Melantrich 1995, p. 393. The information is also online under http://www.holocaust.cz/en/database-of- ... -grossova/:
The deportation chronology under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/c ... .de?page=1 suggests that transports from Auschwitz to Theresienstadt went there directly and not via Treblinka, a detour that would have made no sense as a look at maps reveals:Minna Grossová
Born 20. 09. 1874
Last residence before deportation: Jevíčko
Address/place of registration in the Protectorate: Jevíčko
Transport Ac, no. 855 (19. 03. 1942, Brno -> Terezín)
Transport Bw, no. 330 (19. 10. 1942, Terezín -> Treblinka)
Murdered 30. 12. 1943 Auschwitz
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Ter ... 4.1505577
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/O%C ... 19.2097782
Auschwitz was probably on a line leading from Theresienstadt (Terezín) to Kraków, so going there by train from Theresienstadt via Treblinka (northeast of Warsaw, much further away) would have been a most stupid thing to do.
The database of Auschwitz prisoner names (http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/auschwitz-prisoners/ ) contains no information under any of the surnames "Grossová", "Grossova", "Grosová" or "Grosova". A search under the first name "Minna" reveals one "Gross, Mina Sara", born 1866-08-05, who was "murdered" on 30.12.1943, the same date on which Minna Grossová is supposed to have been "murdered" at Auschwitz. Given Mrs. Gross's age, it is probable that she was an inmate of the Terezín family camp, regarding which the page http://www.holocaust.cz/en/history/even ... -birkenau/ contains the following information:
The chronology under http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/c ... .de?page=1 mentions one transport from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz on 15 December 1943 (arrival on 16 December 1943) and another transport from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz on 18 December 1943 (arrival on 20 December 1943). Considering the above-quoted information whereby transports from Terezín arrived at Auschwitz in December 1943, Minna Sara Gross must have been on either of these transports. Registered as an inmate of the Terezín family camp, she must have died soon after her arrival due to her old age and conditions at that camp.In September 1943 five thousand prisoners were deported from the Terezín ghetto to Auschwitz-Birkenau in two transports.Unlike previous transports, they received unusual “privileges”: on arriving at the camp they did not undergo the usual selections, and families were also not divided up into various sections in the camp - hence the “family” camp. The “privileges” also included the fact that the Terezín prisoners were not subjected to the humiliating ritual of having their heads shaved on arrival, and that children were allowed to spend daytimes in a children's block. In December 1943 and May 1944, further large transports from Terezín brought a further 12,500 prisoners, who were placed in the family camp. While the first transports consisted exclusively of prisoners who had come to Terezín from the Czech lands, almost half the prisoners on later transports were Jews who had initially been deported from Germany, Austria and the Netherlands.
So there are the following indications that Minna Grossová (transported on 19.10.1942 to Trelinka and murdered there) was mixed up by the authors of the Terezín memorial book with Minna Sara Gross (transported to Auschwitz on either 15 or 18 December 1943, registered as an inmate of the Terezín family camp, and "murdered" on 30.12.1943 - quote marks because she is likely to have died of "natural" causes, as the Jews of the Terezín family camp were killed only six months after their arrival):
1. The similarity of surnames (Gross/Grossová, the latter possibly being a female surname corresponding to the male surname "Gross" in Czech language);
2. The absence of a person with the surname "Grossová" or similar in the Auschwitz prisoners database;
3. The date of Minna Sara Gross's death at Auschwitz (30.12.1943, which coincides with Minna Grossová's claimed date of death in the Terezín memorial book);
4. The logistical senselessness of transporting people from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz via Treblinka, which was much further away from Theresienstadt than Auschwitz.
Given the above, the likeliest possibility is that the Terezín memorial book mixed up Minna Sara Gross and Minna Grossová.
Thus there's no banana for "Revisionists" here.