Hans (only) v FP Berg (only). The (informal) gas van debate.

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
Post Reply
User avatar
Friedrich Paul Berg
Posts: 3111
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:21 am
Contact:

Hans (only) v FP Berg (only). The (informal) gas van debate.

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg »

It is far from clear to me that Hans will actually engage in a debate--but I have some questions for him in any event about the alleged "homicidal gas vans."

What kind of gas was used to kill the victims? Was it diesel exhaust, gasoline engine exhaust, or producer gas? Why wouldn't the Nazis have used producer gas?

What follows are two sections from my essay "Diesel Gas chambers--Ideal for Torture, Absurd for Murder" Part B http://www.nazigassings.com/dieselgaschamberb.html :

9. Half a Million Poison Gas Generators on Wheels — Never Used for Mass Murder!

During World War Two, most European countries relied for most of their non-military automotive transport upon vehicles which used neither gasoline nor Diesel, but burned solid fuels such as wood, coke, or coal instead. The solid fuel, which was generally wood, was first converted into a mixture of combustible gases by burning in a generator, usually mounted at the rear of the vehicle. The gases were then withdrawn from the generator by engine suction through a pipe beneath the vehicle, and then burned in a modified gasoline or Diesel engine located at the front of the vehicle. The combustible gas produced in this way always contained between 18%/vol. and 35%/vol. carbon monoxide. The exhaust of engines operated with this producer gas never contained more than 0.3%/vol. CO, since nearly all of the CO was consumed in the engine.[80]
Image
Illustration 1: A typical gaswagon which had originally been a conventional bus but which was subsequently retro-fitted with a gas-generator and a modified Saurer engine.[81]
In German-speaking parts of Europe, these vehicles were called Generatorgaswagen, or simply Gaswagen. If they burned wood, which most of them did, they were also called Holzgaswagen which translates literally as "woodgaswagons." In English-speaking countries, these vehicles were generally called "producer gas vehicles." However, they could just as appropriately have been called "poison gas vehicles" because that is precisely what they were. The operation of these vehicles required special safety procedures as well as special government-approved training and licensing of the many hundreds of thousands of drivers who drove these vehicles daily throughout German-occupied Europe.[82]

Every driver of a producer gas vehicle was required to know and comply with the following guidelines and to keep them at hand in the vehicle:[83]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Safety Guidelines for Producer Gas Vehicles

dated November 28, 1942.

The gas from the gas generator contains up to 35% carbon monoxide (CO). Carbon monoxide can be fatal at concentrations as low as 0.1% when inhaled. For this reason – especially while starting the fire or during refilling – there is a danger of poisoning!

Start and refill the gas generator only out-of-doors! Do not linger unnecessarily near the blower discharge. Do not let engines run in garages.

Responsibilities of the supervisor and driver:

All persons who work with producer gas generators are required to learn and conform to the necessary procedures for a safe and orderly operation. The manufacturer's operating instructions must be strictly followed and kept available within the vehicle. Furthermore, these safety guidelines must also be kept with the vehicle documents for each producer gas vehicle … (emphasis as in original)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Image
Illustration 2: Saurer BT 4500 with producer gas generator.[84] A Saurer truck similar to this type allegedly was used for mass murder in Kulmhof/Chelmno – not with producer gas, but incredibly with its exhaust gas.[85]
Image
Illustration 3: Austro-Fiat 4 D 90 A, producer gas generator as standard fitting.[84]
Image
Illustration 4: Another German war-time producer gas truck from Saurer (Type 5 BHw)
Already the first two sentences of these "safety guidelines" tell every driver the two most important facts they should know if they wish to commit mass murder. Producer gas is poison gas! All producer gas vehicles were, in effect, self-propelled gas generators. The fuel itself was poison gas.

Wherever possible, liquid fuels had to be reserved for the military, at least for the duration of the war. The interest which even Adolf Hitler showed is demonstrated by his remarks at an exhibition of Mercedes-Benz heavy trucks with Mercedes-Benz gas producers that burned coal:[86]

"Vehicles of this kind will retain their special significance after the war as well; for given the trend towards increasing motorization, we will never have a surplus of liquid fuel and will always be dependent on imports. The additional domestic fuels thus benefit our own national economy."

By the autumn of 1941, some 150,000 producer gas vehicles were already in use in Germany and the areas controlled by her. The conversion of existing trucks to producer gas resulted in a monthly savings of about 45 million liters of liquid fuel. The goal was "to free every bit of dispensable fuel for the Wehrmacht."[87] By the end of the war, more than 500,000 producer gas vehicles had been put into service by the Germans.[88]

On May 30, 1942, Reichsmarschall Göring established a "Generator Central Office" for his Four-Year Plan:[89]

"to boost generator production, to determine new types on the basis of the fuel situation at hand, to develop new solid fuels for use in the generator, and to develop suitable processes for preparation and low-temperature carbonization etc."

Göring stated:[90]

"I refer to the explanations in my aforementioned decree, regarding the urgency of making Germany as well as the occupied territories and dependent lands largely independent of liquid fuel as quickly as possible, and would ask you to vigorously support the efforts of the Central Office through the increased use of generators."

As the war continued, conversion to solid fuel became more and more urgent. On September 22, 1942, Reich Minister Speer, acting in his capacity as plenipotentiary for armament production (GBRüst), ordered the conversion of all medium and heavy vehicles including buses in all German-occupied regions.[92] A year later, the GBRüst's amendment of September 13, 1943, eliminated all exemptions. Now the conversion of all civilian vehicles was mandatory as well, including even the smallest automobiles.[93] After the war, in a long report about German oil production, the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey stated that even some of the best German tanks, 50 Königstiger, had been driven with producer gas just before the war's end.[94]
Image
Illustration 5: The Imbert-Generator was the most widespread producer gas generator of the Third Reich, here in mass production on an assembly line in Cologne 1943.[91]
The vast numbers of producer gas vehicles as well as the fervor with which the Germans developed new vehicles and uses for this gas technology, which is so evident throughout their wartime automotive literature, undermine the Holocaust story in general. If the Germans had ever intended to commit mass murder with carbon monoxide, they certainly would have had enough brains to employ this superb poison gas technology long before using anything as idiotic as Diesel exhaust. And, it would have worked!

Eichmann and the other 'transportation experts' involved in the "final solution of the Jewish question," which was indeed primarily a transportation problem, would certainly have been fully aware of these vehicles. If they had had any expertise at all, they would have also been aware of some of the unique features of these vehicles as well. For example, each generator had a startup blower which was powered by either a small electric motor or by hand. It would have been childishly easy to attach a hose, or pipe, to the exhaust of that blower so as to force poison gas into any cellar, barracks, or prison, but nowhere in the vast Holocaust literature is any such technology even suggested.

Another irony is the fact that the same producer gas technology was actually used to gas rats and other vermin. According to the public health literature from the Third Reich, producer gas equipment from the firm of Nocht-Giemsa for killing rats was "very common."[95] And yet, no one thought of using this obvious, practical, effective, simple, and cheap technology on humans – even Jews who had sometimes been compared to rats as in the film "Der Ewige Jude" (The Eternal Jew). Obviously, the National Socialists were not nearly as fiendishly clever, as exterminationists often claimed they were, in connecting Jews to rats.

10. Vans with Diesels for Mass Murder?


10.1 Origins of the Diesel Story

The producer gas vehicles are not the same as the "gas vans" allegedly used for mass murder in Chelmno and by the Einsatzgruppen in Russia, despite the ironic circumstance that the words used in German for both kinds of vehicles are similar. According to all the 'evidence,' the murderous "gas vans" were ordinary heavy vehicles whose exhaust (most often from a Diesel operating at idle) became the lethal gas. The gas van story is based primarily on a strange Nuremberg trial document known as PS-501, which is a probable fabrication based upon an unavailable, innocuous letter from SS-Untersturmführer Becker to SS-Obersturmbannführer Walther Rauff, in which Becker requested all-wheel-drive vehicles so that he could more easily travel the muddy Russian roads. The letter suggests modifications to an S-vehicle.[96] The text of an unavailable original seems to have been rewritten with several changes to give it an incriminating significance. There are several different versions of this 'document' which has been critically assessed in the chapter (pages 215-241) in Dissecting the Holocaust written by Ingrid Weckert.
Image
Illustration 6: German war-time producergas generator made by Kromag
The Diesel murder claims probably originated in mid-1943 Soviet propaganda. A short time earlier, in April 1943, the German discovery of the massacre of thousands of Polish officers at Katyn had exposed the Soviets as ruthless mass murderers. The Germans had openly invited internationally-renowned forensic scientists, even from enemy countries, to thoroughly examine the victims.[97]

To avenge themselves on the Germans for the debacle of Katyn, the Soviets staged show trials a few months later in Char'kov and Krasnodar. In the course of those trials, some unfortunate German prisoners provided 'confessions.' However, the Soviets denied any and all non-Soviet experts access to the alleged sites of the massacres. The Soviets accused the Germans of having driven civilians into the countryside in Diesel trucks. After the trucks containing the victims were parked, the Diesel engine exhaust was allegedly redirected into the interior, and the victims expired shortly thereafter.
Image
Illustration 7: Design of an Ostmark producer gas generator--also shown is the typical "blower" in the lower left. [117]
In this scenario, the Diesel engines would have been operating without any load and at fast idle at the very worst. The CO concentrations under such conditions would hardly have caused a headache in half an hour.

Some of these trucks were said to have been manufactured by the firm of Saurer.[85] The ironic part of this tale is that even before the war, Saurer was arguably the manufacturer of the world's best and most efficient producer gas trucks. During the war, this Swiss-Austrian firm continued its technical leadership over Mercedes, Opel, and Ford who were actually manufacturing far more producer gas vehicles.[98] More than 6,000 Saurer trucks were built in Vienna during the war and most, if not all, had producer gas generators and Diesel engines. How absurd to believe anyone with even a minimum of technical understanding would even try to use the exhaust from these trucks for murder, when the fuel itself was a thousand times more lethal!

A television series produced during the collapse of the Soviet Union and aired in the United States in 1993, provided further insight into the Soviet origins of the gas van tale. The four-part broadcast was entitled: "Monster: A Portrait of Stalin in Blood." At one point in the second part, subtitled "Stalin's Secret Police," KGB officer Alexander Michailov claimed that the gas trucks were invented in Moscow by Isai Davidovich Berg – no relation to this author – and were already in use a few years before the war. According to Michailov, these may have served as a model for Hitler's SS and the Gestapo. Diesel engines were not mentioned. This is explained by the fact that all pre-war trucks in the Soviet Union had only gasoline engines. There were no Diesel engines since the entire transportation system in the USSR was based on earlier, western engine types such as that of Ford Motor Co. More than likely, the Soviet allegations of gas trucks are truly based on the Soviets' own mass murder technology to which they simply added Diesel engines to make them seem more sinister and, most of all, more German.

The gas van story is an adaptation of some documentary materials relating to the perfectly innocent use of producer gas vehicles – supported, of course, by appropriate 'eyewitness' testimony. It is within the gas van story, however, that one can see in miniature the process by which the Holocaust story in general has been confabulated.

The earliest reference to mass murder in gas vans that I have ever found is from July 1943, when Pravda reported on the show trials of a number of German prisoners who had supposedly murdered Soviet citizens in Krasnodar with Diesel powered vans. English translations of the Pravda stories appeared in The Trial in Britain through Hutchinson & Co. and Foreign Languages Publishing House where we have the following text:[99]

"In the autumn of 1942, the Germans began to use specially equipped automobiles which the population called 'murder vans,' for the purpose of doing away with Soviet citizens.

These 'murder vans' were covered five-ton or seven-ton gray-painted motor trucks, driven by Diesel engines."

From a later trial in Kharkov in December of 1943 we have the following claim:[100]

"The vans are lined inside with galvanized iron and have airtight folding doors at the back. The floor is equipped with a wooden grating under which passes a pipe with apertures. The pipe is connected to the exhaust pipe of the engine. The exhaust gases of the Diesel engine, containing highly concentrated carbon monoxide, enter the body of the van, causing rapid poisoning and asphyxiation of the people locked up in the van."

The simple fact is that Diesel exhaust never contains "highly concentrated carbon monoxide."

In a later publication entitled "Soviet War Documents" from December 1943 and published by the Soviet Embassy in Washington, DC, we have a description of the gas van on page 172. According to that description, the engine was a "Sauer" engine. There is no "Sauer" engine manufacturer but there is the famous company called "Saurer" which was discussed earlier. The connection that is made here to a company called "Sauer" is significant because it reappears in the infamous fake letter from Becker to Rauff in Nuremberg File PS-501.[101] By their common errors one can recognize the work of the forgers. There is never any mention anywhere of the engines having been gasoline engines – although that would have certainly made sense technically – nor is there any mention of producer gas wagons which would have made all the sense in the world.
Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

There were NO “limited gassings!” There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!

http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html
The REAL Mass Murderers were the Anglo-Americans and the Jews themselves!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:16 am, edited 6 times in total.


Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH, kindly contact Scott Smith. All contributions are welcome!


Hans
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Hans vs Friedrich debate!

Post by Hans »

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:It is far from clear to me that Hans will actually engage in a debate--but I have some questions for him in any event about the alleged "homicdal gas vans."

What kind of gas was used to kill the victims?
Gasoline engine exhaust.
Why wouldn't the Nazis have used producer gas?
I imagine multiple factors may have played a role, such as

a) because gasoline engine exhaust was succesfully used at the gassing trials of mentally ill in Russia, such as in this film footage in Mogilev. Never change a winning horse.

b) because gasoline engines did the job (and I don't have to teach you about the toxicity of gasoline engine exhaust) and were convinient to use

c) because producer gas posed a higher risk of explosion (like 40% hydrogen/carbon monoxide which has a lower explosive limit of 6% in air)

d) because producer gas vehicles were more dangerous to operate

e) because producer gas vehicles were more difficult to camouflage and even thwarthed the camouflaging of the vehicles

f) because producer gas vehicles required cumbersome handling, higher maintenance and were inadequate for operations of the paramilitary forces (imagine a sudden retreat and the crew had to wait minutes before the vehicle could even start)

g) because producer gas vehicles had a lower effective payload and thus also lower killing capacity

h) because the decision makers may not have been aware of the possibility of producer gas vehicles in the first place

User avatar
Friedrich Paul Berg
Posts: 3111
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:21 am
Contact:

Re: Hans vs Friedrich debate!

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg »

It is so nice to see that we all agree that "diesel exhaust" would NOT have been the way to commit mass murder. Until 2008, however, there was almost universal agreement within the holocaust community that diesel exhaust was used to murder about two million Jews. It was the Soviets themselves who insisted that diesel exhaust was the gas which killed the "gas van" victims. Did the Soviets lie? Why would they do that?

In 1943 the Soviets held show trials to convince the world that the Germans had been using gas vans to murder Soviet citizens with the exhaust gases from diesel engines. The proceedings at Krasnodar and Kharkov are described in The Verdict. From the indictment for the Krasnodar trial on page 49 we have the following:
Medico-legal experts who exhumed and examined bodies found in an anti-tank ditch near Krasnodar stated in their postmortem findings on 29th June, 1943: “The skin, skeletal muscles and mucous membranes of lips, stomach, intestines, pericardium and peritoneum were either a pale pink or bright cherry colour, also noted in some cases in sections of internal organs such as the kidneys, lungs and heart. Spectroscopic and chemical examinations of the blood and portions of organs removed for biopsy showed that in 523 cases out of 623 bodies, death was caused by carbon monoxide poisoning.” As established by the investigation similar “gas lorries,” which were nicknamed “murder vans,” were used by the Germans for murdering peaceful Soviet citizens not only in Krasnodar but also in Kharkov. These vans, as testified by the German defendants in the present case and also by witnesses who witnessed the crimes committed by the Germans, are large closed trucks of dark grey colour, driven by Diesel engines. The vans are lined inside with galvanized iron and have air-tight folding doors at the back. The floor is equipped with a wooden grating under which passes a pipe with apertures. This pipe is connected to the exhaust pipe of the engine. The exhaust gases of the Diesel engine, containing highly concentrated carbon monoxide, enter the body of the van, causing rapid poisoning and asphyxiation of the people locked up in the van.
The Soviets even got the appearance of the victims right--"pale pink or bright cherry color"--which is far more than can be said for any of the self-described "eyewitnesses" from any of the AR camps.

So, Hans, why should any sane person reject the Soviet claims from 1943 and choose contrary claims instead made after the war and far, far away under dubious circumstances? Why should any sane person believe any of this CRAP--even for Hadamar? Were there any autopsies, credible ones, conducted anywhere or observed by credible witnesses to support any of these claims? Of course, not!

By contrast, the Germans had conducted autopsies with many foreign observers, including Polish clergy, at Katyn just months earlier of the thousands of Polish officers murdered there by the Soviets. Here is a link showing something about the Katyn Massacre investigation conducted by the Germans:
https://www.archives.gov/research/forei ... n-massacre

It is quite different from what the Soviets conducted later. The Germans at Katyn showed the world just how a mass murder investigtion should be conducted. The Soviets pretended to do something comprable regardiung "gas vans" just a few months later--but it was a farce instead.


The possible dangers of explosion with producer gas are minimal compared to what Hans alleges--and that is why the Germans actually used and seemed to even prefer producer gas vehicles to transport ammunition and even flammable liquids and fuels. It is all rigorously spelled out in typical German fashion with "Safety Guidelines for Producer Gas Vehicles" as follows: http://www.nazigassings.com/SafetyGuidelines.htm
E) Bei der Beförderung von explosiblen und leicht brennbaren Stoffen

1. Bei beladenem Fahrzeug ist die Gasprobe durch Anzünden verboten.

2. Beim Entaschen des Gaserzeugers ist die Asche vorsichtig in einem Blechkasten zu entleeren. Funkenflug vermeiden! Glühende Asche ist entweder zu löschen oder so zu beseitigen, daß sie von etwa nachkommenden Fahrzeugen nicht aufgewirbelt oder vom Wind auf diese zugetrieben wird.

Außerdem :

I. Bei Beförderung von Munition und Sprengstoffen

1. Wird bei Märschen ein Halten der beladenen Fahrzeuge notwendig, so müssen die einzelnen Fahrzeuge einen Abstand von mindestens 50 m voneinander einhalten.

2. Jeder Führer eines Gaserzeuger-Kraftfahrzeugs hat sich bei der Einfahrt in Heeresmunitionsniederlagen und Munitionslagern beim Sicherheitsoffizier zu melden und den ihm gegebenen Anweisungen Folge zu leisten. Es dürfen nur die vom Sicherheitsoffizier benannten Wege befahren werden.

3. Vor Einfahrt in die Heeresmunitionsanstalten usw, ist der Gaserzeuger zu entaschen und festzustellen, ob er noch mit genügend Brennstoff beschickt ist, so daß das Fahrzeug unter allen Umständen ohne Nachfüllen wieder herausfahren kann.

Innerhalb von Heeresemunitionsanstalten usw. darf kein Kraftstoff in den Gaserzeuger nachgefüllt und der Gaserzeuger nicht entascht werden, auch das Öffnen des Aschekastens, der Einfüllöffnung und sonstiger Verschlüsse des Gaserzeugers ist verboten.

Ist ein längerer Stillstand des Fahrzeugs innerhalb der Heeresmunitionsanstalten usw, und damit das Einschalten des Anfachgebläses unvermeidlich, so darf auf keinen Fall die Gasprobe am Gebläsestutzen durch Anzünden vorgenommen werden, der Motor ist erst dann anzulassen, wenn erfahrungsgemäß mit brennbarem Gas gerechnet werden kann.


II. Bei Beförderung von brennbaren Flüssigkeiten und brennbaren Gasen

1. Es muß vermieden werden, daß in den Behältern flüssige Kraftstoffe und für brennbare Gase auf dem Fahrzeug gefährliche Temperatur - und damit Drucksteigerungen auftreten können. Wenn eine wärmeisolierende Trennwand (Abstand vom Gaserzeuger mindestens 15 m) nicht vorhanden ist, muß das Ladegut mindestens 50 cm vom Gaserzeuger entfernt gelagert und so festgelegt werden, daß es sich nicht zum Gaserzeuger hin verschieben kann.

2. Das Öffnen von Behältern für flüssige Kraftstoffe und brennbare Gase auf dem Gaserzeuger-Kraftfahrzeug ist verboten. Das Abfüllen aus den Behältern darf nur in einer Entfernung von mindestens 10 m vom Gaserzeuger, und zwar auf der dem Wind abgekehrten Seite, vorgenommen werden.

3. Beladene Gaserzeuger-Kraftfahrzeuge dürfen nicht in geschlossene Räume eingestellt werden.
Eventually, I will provide an English translation of the relevant "Safety Guidelines." For now, however, Hans and others should try to make it through the German text for themselves.

The dangers from exploding producer gas vehicles is not that great to begin with since the amount of explosive gas in an open area (away from a garage and outside of any enclosed space) consists of merely the gas in the few feet of hose or piping from the gas generator tank to the engine. In other words, the possibly explosive gas consists of no more than a few gallons of gas--at most. By contrast, the dangers of exploding gasoline or liquid diesel fuel powered trucks is far greater since the fuel tanks could alone contain many tens of gallons of highly flammable and explosive liquid fuel. Enemy air attacks or artillery could easily unleash a holocaust if the liquid fuel tanks were ruptured--but ONLY a small fire, at least generally depending on the cargo, if a producer gas vehicle were hit.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

There were NO “limited gassings!” There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!

http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html
The REAL Mass Murderers were the Anglo-Americans and the Jews themselves!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:17 am, edited 12 times in total.

Hans
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Hans v FP Berg. The gas van debate.

Post by Hans »

Here's the first part of my reply to Fritz (his later additions will be addressed later on).
It was the Soviets themselves who insisted that diesel exhaust was the gas which killed the "gas van" victims. Did the Soviets lie? Why would they do that?
The Soviet were ignorant about the type of engine used in the gas vans. However, until somebody examines the Soviet files of the trials on this point, we can only speculate why they thought the gas vans were using Diesel engines. It's conceivable that they were mislead by the testimony of Vassily Tishchenko to whom the Krasnodar verdict seems to attribute the statement that "the Diesel engine by which the vehicle was driven" (The People's Verdict. A Full report of the proceedings at the Krasnodar and Kharkov German atrocity trials, p.17). One could also research what status "Diesel" had in the Soviet Union and so whether bystanders could have assumed Diesel simply because the gas vans were brought by the Germans, or whether the Soviets could have had decided on Diesel simply for propagandistic reasons.

But as said, a study of the Soviet files of the trial would be necessary to really try answering this question.

So, Hans, why should any sane person reject the Soviet claims from 1943 and choose contrary claims instead made after the war and far, far away under dubious circumstances?
You seem to assume that the first published historical knowledge is the best. But in many, if not most cases, it is the other way round, the reliability and accuracy of historical knowledge increases with time as new sources and new perspectives are explored.

In the case of the Soviet Diesel claim, the only known published testimony on Diesel is that of Tishchenko. The Kharkov trial verdict did not quote any witness on Diesel, especially none of the German defendants testified on Diesel in their gas van descriptions, in contrary to how one might understand the extract quoted by you. So there is no convincing evidence that the Soviet Diesel claim is based on anything else than the testimony of Tishchenko. But the testimony of a single person on some detail is little robust evidence without any further corroboration. It may be right or wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Now, if we fast forward by 2 years, we find that the deputy commandant of Chelmno, Walter Piller, wrote a detailed account on this extermination site in May 1945 and mentioned that the gas used to kill in the vans was generated by a "gasoline engine" (Benzinmotor) (Bundesarchiv, B162/3258, p.33; copy also in Yad Vashem Archives, O.53/12, p. 35). The Polish car mechanic Zenon Rossa, who worked in repair garage in Kolo near Chelmno during the war, testified on 15 June 1945 on a gas van repaired in the garage that its "engine was a 6-cylinder from the company Saurer, on gasoline [benzyne]" (Archiwum Instytutu Pamięci Narodowej GK 165/271, tom I, p. 43). These testimonies from two competent witnesses already outweigh the Diesel mention by Tishchenko. So already by 1945, the evidence was in favour of gasoline engines in the gas vans. The dominance of gasoline engines in the testimonies became only even stronger in the subsequent years. Up to day, we know that at least 18 witnesses have testified on gasoline engines or gasoline used for the gas vans, which includes the most competent witnesses one can think of, such as the person in charge of the gas van construction and four gas van drivers. On the other hand, Tishchenko is still the only reference to Diesel as far as I know.

Accordingly, any sane person would reject the Soviet claim from 1943 for the gasoline engine spotted by numerous competent witnesses.

User avatar
Friedrich Paul Berg
Posts: 3111
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:21 am
Contact:

Re: Hans vs Friedrich debate!

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg »

For the convenience of all of us here, here is what Hans posted elsewhere on this forum:
postby Hans » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:41 pm
Here's the first part of my reply to Fritz (his later additions will be addressed later on).

[from Berg] It was the Soviets themselves who insisted that diesel exhaust was the gas which killed the "gas van" victims. Did the Soviets lie? Why would they do that?


The Soviet were ignorant about the type of engine used in the gas vans. However, until somebody examines the Soviet files of the trials on this point, we can only speculate why they thought the gas vans were using Diesel engines. It's conceivable that they were mislead by the testimony of Vassily Tishchenko to whom the Krasnodar verdict seems to attribute the statement that "the Diesel engine by which the vehicle was driven" (The People's Verdict. A Full report of the proceedings at the Krasnodar and Kharkov German atrocity trials, p.17). One could also research what status "Diesel" had in the Soviet Union and so whether bystanders could have assumed Diesel simply because the gas vans were brought by the Germans, or whether the Soviets could have had decided on Diesel simply for propagandistic reasons.

But as said, a study of the Soviet files of the trial would be necessary to really try answering this question.


[from Berg] So, Hans, why should any sane person reject the Soviet claims from 1943 and choose contrary claims instead made after the war and far, far away under dubious circumstances?


You seem to assume that the first published historical knowledge is the best. But in many, if not most cases, it is the other way round, the reliability and accuracy of historical knowledge increases with time as new sources and new perspectives are explored.

In the case of the Soviet Diesel claim, the only known published testimony on Diesel is that of Tishchenko. The Kharkov trial verdict did not quote any witness on Diesel, especially none of the German defendants testified on Diesel in their gas van descriptions, in contrary to how one might understand the extract quoted by you. So there is no convincing evidence that the Soviet Diesel claim is based on anything else than the testimony of Tishchenko. But the testimony of a single person on some detail is little robust evidence without any further corroboration. It may be right or wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Now, if we fast forward by 2 years, we find that the deputy commandant of Chelmno, Walter Piller, wrote a detailed account on this extermination site in May 1945 and mentioned that the gas used to kill in the vans was generated by a "gasoline engine" (Benzinmotor) (Bundesarchiv, B162/3258, p.33; copy also in Yad Vashem Archives, O.53/12, p. 35). The Polish car mechanic Zenon Rossa, who worked in repair garage in Kolo near Chelmno during the war, testified on 15 June 1945 on a gas van repaired in the garage that its "engine was a 6-cylinder from the company Saurer, on gasoline [benzyne]" (Archiwum Instytutu Pamięci Narodowej GK 165/271, tom I, p. 43). These testimonies from two competent witnesses already outweigh the Diesel mention by Tishchenko. So already by 1945, the evidence was in favour of gasoline engines in the gas vans. The dominance of gasoline engines in the testimonies became only even stronger in the subsequent years. Up to day, we know that at least 18 witnesses have testified on gasoline engines or gasoline used for the gas vans, which includes the most competent witnesses one can think of, such as the person in charge of the gas van construction and four gas van drivers. On the other hand, Tishchenko is still the only reference to Diesel as far as I know.

Accordingly, any sane person would reject the Soviet claim from 1943 for the gasoline engine spotted by numerous competent witnesses.
The above is just more "crap" from Hans to cover the absurdities and lies that are typical of the entire holocaust hoax--not merely, the "gas van" part of the hoax. Perhaps I will have more to say later--but at this point, Hans has already made a total fool of himself.

I suggest Hans take a timeout and spend some months, or years, making "a study of the Soviet files of the trial" before telling any more tall tales about the "holocaust."

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

There were NO “limited gassings!” There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!

http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html
The REAL Mass Murderers were the Anglo-Americans and the Jews themselves!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

Hans
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Hans vs Friedrich debate!

Post by Hans »

Fritz,

your entirely inadequate comment here consisting of nothing but ranting instead of addressing my argument suggests you are incapable of having a serious debate.

Not that this comes as a total surprise now, but I really had the impression you wanted to discuss the issue.

Hans
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Hans vs Friedrich debate!

Post by Hans »

Perhaps somebody can invite Santiago Alvarez to resume for Berg, if this is the kind of "debate" he has in mind.

Hans
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Hans vs Friedrich debate!

Post by Hans »

By the way, if you consider the Soviet Diesel claim superior over the mass of evidence on gasoline engines in the gas vans, it is up to you, not to me, to go back to the Soviet files and support your case.

User avatar
Friedrich Paul Berg
Posts: 3111
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:21 am
Contact:

Re: Hans vs Friedrich debate!

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg »

Hans is condemned to spend the rest of his miserable life making excuses and "cherry-picking" the lies of "eyewitnesses to the holocaust." Only in that way can he possibly cobble something together that will fool anyone.

Until about 2008, holocaust mania had embraced the death by diesel claims--but thanks to my work, that finally came to an end; even Hans concedes today that diesel exhaust made no sense for mass murder. But, for the "holocaust historians," it made perfect sense until about 2008. Were they all "insane" until 2008? In my opinion, they are still insane today--and Hans is a good example.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

There were NO “limited gassings!” There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!

http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html
The REAL Mass Murderers were the Anglo-Americans and the Jews themselves!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hans
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Hans v FP Berg. The gas van debate.

Post by Hans »

2nd part addressing Berg here:
Friedrich Paul Berg wrote: The possible dangers of explosion with producer gas are minimal compared to what Hans alleges--and that is why the Germans actually used and seemed to even prefer producer gas vehicles to transport ammunition and even flammable liquids and fuels. It is all rigorously spelled out in typical German fashion with "Safety Guidelines for Producer Gas Vehicles" as follows: http://www.nazigassings.com/SafetyGuidelines.htm

Eventually, I will provide an English translation of the relevant "Safety Guidelines." For now, however, Hans and others should try to make it through the German text for themselves.

The dangers from exploding producer gas vehicles is not that great to begin with since the amount of explosive gas in an open area (away from a garage and outside of any enclosed space) consists of merely the gas in the few feet of hose or piping from the gas generator tank to the engine. In other words, the possibly explosive gas consists of no more than a few gallons of gas--at most. By contrast, the dangers of exploding gasoline or liquid diesel fuel powered trucks is far greater since the fuel tanks could alone contain many tens of gallons of highly flammable and explosive liquid fuel. Enemy air attacks or artillery could easily unleash a holocaust if the liquid fuel tanks were ruptured--but ONLY a small fire, at least generally depending on the cargo, if a producer gas vehicle were hit.
You are merely talking about the risk of explosion for the gas generator and supply to the engine itself, but this does not address the matter at hand, the risk of explosion when an explosive mixture containing hydrogen is pumped into a cargon box. Even for the gassing with gasoline engine exhaust there had been an incident of explosion in Chelmno extermination camp:

"The explosion that we know took place at Chelmno is to be considered an isolated case. The cause can be attributed to improper operation."

(memo from Willy Just of 5 June 1942)

This single incident among some thousands of homicidal gassings that had been carried out by Nazis with gas vans was only caused by "improper operation", but in case of producer gas the risk of explosion was already given by its proper operation. It is perfectly understandable that the Nazis did not employ producer gas vans when the intrinsically much safer gasoline engine exhaust was already doing the job (leaving aside that the would-coulda fallacy does not refute the concrete evidence on the Nazi use of homicidal gas vans with engine exhaust).

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests