Cesarani's "Final Solution"

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ralphgordon
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Cesarani's "Final Solution"

Post by ralphgordon » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:39 am

https://www.amazon.com/Final-Solution-F ... -49-ebook/

IS there anyone else reading the above book which was just published this year. This is probably the most comprehensive "exterminationist" text ever published, as it covers all aspects of the alleged Holocaust", so it surely has to be taken seriously by any avowed student of the "Holocaust". The book is indeed over one thousand pages long, including footnotes and the index, and, at present, I am just over two thirds finished. AS all serious students of the "Holocaust" would know David Caesani has spent his life as a historian mostly writing about the "Holocaust", and , in my opinion, he is one of the least dogmatic of the "exterminationists", and, although in the "Final Solution" he firmly adheres to that line, in some respects he is a revisionist, strictly speaking, as, for instance, he believes that the Nazis did not originally intend to physically exterminate the Jews, but that, in accordance with their National Socialist ideology, when it became apparent they were going to be defeated, it was then that they decided to adopt an exterminationist policy, otherwise the Jews would eventually exterminate the Germans; of course, those who are "deniers" would have something to say about that, and, actually, Caesani nowhere has anything to say about "denier" contentions, which is a pity, although, as I said, the book is very long in detail, in itself. Also it is interesting to know that Caesani died just as he finished the book, before it was actually published, which is somewhat disconcerting -- perhaps that German guy who is dying of cancer will be able to debate the "Holocaust" with Caesani in "Heaven"!

As I have always said I am a "Holocaust" agnostic, and I still am, although Caesani, with his thoroughly comprehensive analysis, does certainly raise some doubts in my mind; for instance, if no Jews were exterminated in gas chambers it would be necessary for them to be warehoused somewhere (if they were not selected to be worked to death!), and this would surely have to be somewhere in the Nazi-occupied USSR; but what Caesani's analysis does is to demonstrate that there is nowhere in the USSR where they would have been left in peace, as, in Russia, the Nazis presumed that all Jews were pro-communist, especially since many were paRTISANS, AND IT DOES SEEM that many Jews were killed in Russia by the Nazis. and this is all over; therefore, what is the answer, since, surely, if the "deniers" are correct, they have to make a plausible case that the Jews not killed in gas chamber would have to warehoused somewhere. In the interests of truth, therefore, I would hope that all "deniers" would be able to take Caesani's book seriously, and come uo with a useful critical analysis.
Last edited by Scott on Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aryan Scholar
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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Aryan Scholar » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:34 am

About the Author

David Cesarani is internationally recognized as one of this generation's leading Jewish and Holocaust scholars. He is research professor in History at Royal Holloway. His most recent book, Major Farran's Hat (Heinemann, 2009), was nominated for a Golden Dagger and was a finalist for the US National Jewish Book Award for History 2009. His biography of Adolf Eichmann was winner of the National Jewish Book Award in 2006 and has been translated into a dozen languages. Earlier books include an acclaimed biography of Arthur Koestler (1998) and the controversial Justice Delayed (1992), the story of how Britain became a haven for Nazi war criminals after the end of the war. He has extensive broadcasting and print media experience. In 2005 he was awarded an OBE for his work in the establishment of Holocaust Memorial Day in the UK and is a trustee of the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust. He also serves on the UK delegation to the International Task Force for Holocaust Remembrance, Education and Research.
1056 pages from a Jewish scholar about the fictional 6,000,000 dead body of Jews nowhere to be found.

What could be wrong?

:roll:

Turnagain
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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Turnagain » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:05 am

It's claimed that ~1.7 million people were gassed, buried, exhumed, cremated and had their carbonized bones pulverized and either scattered or reburied at the Aktion Reinhardt camps. Does Caesani offer the location of the mass graves large enough to contain ~1.7 million bodies? Does he explain how some 10 million pounds of carbonized bones were pulverized? Does he offer any location for the cremains? Or, does he just offer the simple minded, "where did the Jews go if they weren't gassed" shibboleth? IOW, does he have any specifics or does he just ramble on about reports from Moishe Goldstein and the eeevul Narzi, Captain Katzenjammer?

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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Aryan Scholar » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:13 am

Image
Image
Image

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v_J ... &q&f=false

Conflates Treblinka train station with Treblinka concentration camp.

Uses the word "souls" as euphemism for the imaginary Jews killed at Treblinka.

Says there is evidence for something without provide any evidence.

Makes the absurd claim the imaginary extermination facilities in Treblinka were overloaded.

Relies on the literal meaning of testimonies from unreliable and discredited witness such as Wiernik.

Misinterpret a telegram reporting number of people transported as a report of people exterminated.

It seems there are not much difference between David Cesarani and Nessie.

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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Aryan Scholar » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:44 am

Turnagain wrote:It's claimed that ~1.7 million people were gassed, buried, exhumed, cremated and had their carbonized bones pulverized and either scattered or reburied at the Aktion Reinhardt camps. Does Caesani offer the location of the mass graves large enough to contain ~1.7 million bodies? Does he explain how some 10 million pounds of carbonized bones were pulverized? Does he offer any location for the cremains? Or, does he just offer the simple minded, "where did the Jews go if they weren't gassed" shibboleth? IOW, does he have any specifics or does he just ramble on about reports from Moishe Goldstein and the eeevul Narzi, Captain Katzenjammer?
It is just the same kind of ramble found in other threads:

Image
Image
Image

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v_J ... &q&f=false

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Nessie
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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:20 am

ralphgordon wrote:......
As I have always said I am a "Holocaust" agnostic, and I still am, although Caesani, with his thoroughly comprehensive analysis, does certainly raise some doubts in my mind; for instance, if no Jews were exterminated in gas chambers it would be necessary for them to be warehoused somewhere (if they were not selected to be worked to death!), and this would surely have to be somewhere in the Nazi-occupied USSR; but what Caesani's analysis does is to demonstrate that there is nowhere in the USSR where they would have been left in peace, as, in Russia, the Nazis presumed that all Jews were pro-communist, especially since many were paRTISANS, AND IT DOES SEEM that many Jews were killed in Russia by the Nazis. and this is all over; therefore, what is the answer, since, surely, if the "deniers" are correct, they have to make a plausible case that the Jews not killed in gas chamber would have to warehoused somewhere. In the interests of truth, therefore, I would hope that all "deniers" would be able to take Caesani's book seriously, and come uo with a useful critical analysis.
Thanks for the summary. The warehousing point is the elephant in the room which denier/revisionists react to by either changing the topic (Werd), denying they have to even study the issue (Turnagain) or claim alternatives like name changes and being evacuated by the Soviets without being able to evidence anything like the millions involved (been-there).

Caesarini recognises the importance of evidencing and he produces evidence from multiple sources. Denier/revisionists cannot evidence their beliefs, so they use various tactics to justify in their own minds why they do not believe the evidence for the Holocaust and then conclude if not A then B.

Please follow the evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:27 am

Aryan Scholar wrote:Image
Image
Image

Source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v_J ... &q&f=false

Conflates Treblinka train station with Treblinka concentration camp.
He refers to trains rolling past the station up the spur to the camp.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Uses the word "souls" as euphemism for the imaginary Jews killed at Treblinka.
Please evidence and prove they are imaginary.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Says there is evidence for something without provide any evidence.
Where? You base an entire belief on something you cannot evidence.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Makes the absurd claim the imaginary extermination facilities in Treblinka were overloaded.
Which is evidenced by testimony and the change of camp commander.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Relies on the literal meaning of testimonies from unreliable and discredited witness such as Wiernik.
In your opinion Wiernik is so discredited he should not be used as a witness. But the law you have quoted elsewhere requires you to PROVE he is lying.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Misinterpret a telegram reporting number of people transported as a report of people exterminated.
In your opinion. But his interpretation is based on evidence they were killed at the camp. Your version is based on a claim you cannot evidence.
Aryan Scholar wrote:It seems there are not much difference between David Cesarani and Nessie.
Good. We believe based on the evidence, not opinion.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Turnagain » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:52 am

Nessie can never answer the question, "Why should I care about where the Jews went if they weren't murdered at Treblinka (or other AR camps)?" If they were murdered at Treblinka, show me the proof. Seems simple enough but since Nessie has no proof that the Jews were murdered at Treblinka, he then demands that I provide him with an itinerary for where the Jews went. He comes up with such claims that the giant mass graves that are claimed for Treblinka were somehow obliterated and can't be found even with the most sophisticated geophysical gear. Purest horse frocky but there it is and Nessie sticks to it like snot on a fingernail. Hide and watch, somewhere in the next few posts Nessie will be making claims about "topography" and "disturbed ground" and that the giant mass graves of Treblinka have all disappeared, never to be found again. Perhaps in his mind that is true.

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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Aryan Scholar » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:22 pm

Nessie wrote:
Aryan Scholar wrote:Conflates Treblinka train station with Treblinka concentration camp.
He refers to trains rolling past the station up the spur to the camp.
That is how he conflates both.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Uses the word "souls" as euphemism for the imaginary Jews killed at Treblinka.
Please evidence and prove they are imaginary.
Yet another demand to prove the non-existence of something.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Says there is evidence for something without provide any evidence.
Where? You base an entire belief on something you cannot evidence.
The part which reads "there is also evidence". Read again.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Makes the absurd claim the imaginary extermination facilities in Treblinka were overloaded.
Which is evidenced by testimony and the change of camp commander.
You mean allegations which completely contradicts the claim the Treblinka concentration camp was part of a secret plan to exterminate people.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Relies on the literal meaning of testimonies from unreliable and discredited witness such as Wiernik.
In your opinion Wiernik is so discredited he should not be used as a witness. But the law you have quoted elsewhere requires you to PROVE he is lying.
Not my opinion, it is a fact.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Misinterpret a telegram reporting number of people transported as a report of people exterminated.
In your opinion. But his interpretation is based on evidence they were killed at the camp. Your version is based on a claim you cannot evidence.
Not my opinion, it is fact.
Aryan Scholar wrote:It seems there are not much difference between David Cesarani and Nessie.
Good. We believe based on the evidence, not opinion.
You both believe in your own self-contradictory imagination.

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Nessie
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Re: Caesani's "Final Solution"

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:13 pm

Turnagain wrote:Nessie can never answer the question, "Why should I care about where the Jews went if they weren't murdered at Treblinka (or other AR camps)?"
Lie.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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